TheRPGSite

This might be different .

Whats is your favorite game or game system - that I haven't played or tried yet?

 Unlike threads on other forums I  DON'T want you to sell "ME" on it  - I want advice on how to sell unfamiliar RPGs or a good 3 sentence or less descriptions of games and game settings.

 Pdf-only stuff ...don't even bother.
 What we have in the store is the big 5 or 6 games or at least the top 12 or so.  (Yes that includes BLUE ROSE and TRUE20)

So, How can I explain a seting or game to a customer willing to try something NEW ...in 3 or 4 sentences or less??

 Believe it or not  - I DO NOT "push" GURPS in the store.  I go out of my way to be fair and mention at least 2 or 3  RPG systems when asked about them.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarPdf-only stuff ...don't even bother.

Awwww.

ICE's Rolemaster Standard System is the best fantasy rpg ever written.  There's also a connected sf game with decent potential that never quite hits the mark.

Why is RMSS so great?  Well, depth and breadth.  The core game has a dozen races and cultures as well as twenty professions.  There's no nasty multiclassing nonsense, but don't worry, your fighter can still learn spells it just costs more and he doesn't get any sort of a profession bonus when casting them.

Rolemaster is chart heavy but it can run very smoothly and is much easier to move to from D&D than GURPS or HERO due to similar structures.  It's really an amazing game, the character sheet's a bit scary but wow is it ever worth the trouble.

The best way to sell RMSS is to open up Arms Law and let them read a few critical hit tables.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenAwwww.

 Sorry Levi.

 See that background in my avatar photo? Thats the shelves in the game store. We get game books from a distributor. Publishers like Green Ronin, Chosium, Mongoose, MWP , HERO Games, Palladium, Sovereign Press, and of course  Steve Jackson Games and Wizards of the Coast.

 No pdfs on our shelves - just the way it is.

- Ed C.

You might be interested to look at this thread from Chris Hanrahan of EndGame (Oakland, CA):

A full year worth of sales... (http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=2143&page=1)

If any games in particular interest you, I might be able to do a blurb, but it might be better to get in touch with Chris or the designer(s).

Quote from: droogYou might be interested to look at this thread from Chris Hanrahan of EndGame (Oakland, CA):

A full year worth of sales... (http://www.story-games.com/forums/comments.php?DiscussionID=2143&page=1)

If any games in particular interest you, I might be able to do a blurb, but it might be better to get in touch with Chris or the designer(s).

 I clicked on that link .
 That first batch of games listed? Looks like all the gamrs that get mentioned inthe endless GNs/Forge debates. Are they offered tjhrough a distributor as a hardback or paperbound book ?
 That second, smaller list of games - some of those we actually have on our shelves. For example; we have MANY Mongoose titles and TRUE 20 books.

 It isn't ALL D20/OGL-compatible stuff. We also have two EDGE OF MIDNIGHT boks and SLA Insustries the RPG.


- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarI clicked on that link .
 That first batch of games listed? Looks like all the gamrs that get mentioned inthe endless GNs/Forge debates. Are they offered tjhrough a distributor as a hardback or paperbound book ?

Those games all come as books. I don't think any of them are sold through distributors.

Koltar,
More important is how do YOU sell your games. I work with close to 60 retail stores around the world and they all have different ways (some have several ways) that they pitch their RPGs. When I had my stores it was demo, demo,demo. Seven days a week we demoed RPGs and sometimes several games a day. I have stores that sell RPGs purely through talk, some get the product out and need to show it to a customer while others just handle it on a customer by customer basis. Some use posters, while others need special distribution in order to handle the conventions they attend. In the end, if you can give us the big picture on how you sell your games to your customers (in general) we should be able to help you with the details.

Oh, and do not under estimate your enthusiasm as the sales person. I am not saying you do not give other games a fair shake but your excitement over your favorite games can often sell the game to a prospective customer.

BTW-If you are interested I do send free samples and demo copies to retail stores. You can email me at bilbo@hinterwelt.com if interested.

Bill

Bill,
 If I haven't played a game - Memorize experiences that customers have told me they have had with a game or game system.

 For example when White Wolf did tjhe whole universe ending and then massive "re-boot" with their World of Darkness line. During that I heard every possible complaint and beef from customers who had been previously loyal to every little thing that White Wolf.

 MANY of the games  on our shelves I have not played - but I pay attention to WHY they are liked by some and what parts of them are disliked.

 Amother example: I have not played RIFTS, but my customers have described the two kinds of damage  in that game's mechanics and why it sometimes is  a headache to run that.
 Then again, one of our most gorgeous regulars - she LOVES that game and Gms it all the time.


 We don't have the space to do a decent demo.  We do have a starter box of the introductory D&D game to show parents and kids what is inside it . Also used to have 12 copies of GURPS Lite - for people interested in that .  My manager grabbed the last few copies of that for a G:TRANSHUMAN game that a friend of his started up .

- Ed C.

Nothing beats first hand knowledge of a game. Play as many of the games in your store that you possibly can and offer to run demos of games that may be good, but will slip under the radar of the average gamer (someone that doesn't have their nose glued to some rpg forum all damn day).

I don't know what it is, but whenever David starts talking about Rolemaster I want to play it immediately.

Alas, Endgame Oakland is one of two stores serving me, and if you've seen the list in droog's link you will realize it's not exactly Chartmaster HQ. :D

Quote from: RockViperNothing beats first hand knowledge of a game. Play as many of the games in your store that you possibly can and offer to run demos of games that may be good, but will slip under the radar of the average gamer (someone that doesn't have their nose glued to some rpg forum all damn day).

 What you suggest is what we tend to do with the Board games. With RPGs, thats a little trickier.
 In the past 3 plus years I've learned how to play Carcassone, Zombies! ,  Crimson Skies , Tsuro , Pipeline ,  Pente ,  Defelxion (Khet) , Pirates of the ____ from WizKids  , Polarity ,  Gobblet , Blokus ,    and a few others. Those are all the ones that have been on our in-store game table at ome time or another.

 Hell I even was a DM for the International Anniversary of Dungeons & Dragons back in 2004.  It weas a simple scenario that WOTC sent out . I was the only employee that had ever reffed an RPG - so Ive course I volunterred (got drafted) . The D&D  veterans said I did alright - considering it was  NOT my preferred system.

- Ed C.

I'm really surprised that a gaming store doesn't have employees with more RPG knowledge.  But then, if they only carry 12 - 15 RPGs I guess it's more of a general gaming store.  That you're the only employee who has ever GMd is stunning to me.

I recommend your store stock, demo, and sell any products from Indie Press Revolution, because they're damn fine games.  Most of them can be played in short time periods, most have game-like dice mechanics that invoke strategy sorely lacking in other RPGs, and IPR is very responsive to all questions.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI don't know what it is, but whenever David starts talking about Rolemaster I want to play it immediately.

Alas, Endgame Oakland is one of two stores serving me, and if you've seen the list in droog's link you will realize it's not exactly Chartmaster HQ. :D

People say "chart master" like it's a bad thing.  Honestly charts organize information, so a game like Rolemaster has a great deal of organization.

Personally I suspect two things are responsible for most people's negative experiences with RMSS:

First: the notion that all your skill bonuses should be totalled before playing.  Really, Alertness, Body Development, Observation, weapon skills, and spell lists are the only ones that'll noticably slow play if you didn't do them.  And adding up a few skills in play from time to time will dramatically reduce the number of times you have to explain it when going up a level.

Second: the experienced gamer's tendancy to scrap the declaration of intent phase as a bulky wargame holdover.  If you have all the players total their bonuses and look up their results on the attack tables similaneously it is way faster than doing it sequentially, even though the GM still needs a little longer for the opposition.  But that can be sped up by standardizing the weapon mix carried by the badguys.  If the goblins all have shortswords and shortbows it goes a lot faster than if 3 have flails and 2 have axes, and one has a heavy crossbow and another has a light crossbow and yet another is tossing henchbeings from a sack.

I am going to recommend SLA Industries, which can be picked up from Leisure Games (the distributer not the game company which is... now... cubicle 7 or some nonsense) out of the UK.  Here is what you are getting: A ten year old game line that has got a loyal following of fans, despite having nearly died on the table twice in the 14 years of it's existance.  It has recently be jump started by, in fact, a fan led movement (think Fanpro with shadowrun and Battletech), and this year they alone they are releasing almost as many books as the Game line en toto. A second edition is slated for septemberish...

What are you getting? You are getting a simple game engine of a not quite Sci-Fi, not quite pyschological horror game.  By itself it can be run like Shadowrun, teams of heavily armed thugs blowing shit up for a paycheck, but along with the new releases more and more of the deeply fucked up setting comes to light.  I won't bother with 'THE TRUTH', which as of the second edition will no long be valid, instead I'll lay out the setting.

It's not our world, our universe.  There are walking Gods, only a few of them. They don't call themselves Gods. In fact, Mr. Slayer, the most prominant, calls himself a businessman. He bought most of the universe, and his company headquarters is on a world called Mort. That is where you come in. You are an operative of the Company, negotiating it laberynthine beaurocracy in an effort to get paid and show up on TV.  Against you are serial killers, Soft Company terrorists, and brutal animals like carnivorous Pigs and the mysterious humaniod Carriens.  Think Brazil without the humor. Think Blade Runner without...no, just think Blade Runner.  Think any over the top Vietnam War movie and you have places like Dante (a War World, where the conflict never stops, and life expectancies can be measured in seconds).  

There is worse stuff out there, of course. As the characters progress they might hear of White Earth, or Bitterness. Who is Bitterness? He is a mad god, the hateful twin of Mr. Slayer. And beyond his prison world, or the THINGS he sends to Mort lies a region of space known as Black Stump, where the Conflict Races fled and the Diamond Dogs are said to roam.

Obviously, the joy of the game, aside from it's resurgance, is that it can be played straight and for fun, or you can bring in all the twisted, sick insanity you like and it's perfectly in terms of the game. There are people who play it like Call of Cthulu without being mired in 80 year old existential horror. There are people who play it like a big guns, big armor wargasm. Neither is wrong. In fact one of the early supplements was on playing a 'contract killer' essentially a television Gladiator, a celebrity who kills his fellow celebrities for the entertainment of the masses, which opened up a whole new style of play.

The best part is, you aren't even going on a limb. I've seen the books for sale in game stores in three states, and the forum, while dominated by the UK crowd, has plenty of US posters as well. The fans are out there, and they want it.  My recommendation: Sell it to teenagers who want shadowrun (and sell them shadowrun too) with a side of angst. They'll eat it up.

Koltar,

I think it's fantastic that you're trying to provide your customers with more information, choices, and support.  

In the last couple of years, the fastest growing trend in RPG purchases for myself and my greater gaming circle (say maybe 15-20 people I game with at least semi-regularly) has been small press games.  As we started getting intrigued by these small format books that fit so well in a pocket or a bag, we started liking them more and more.  Meanwhile, their production value has steadily increased, which doesn't hurt.  

A couple of our FLGS have accounts at Indie Press Revolution (http://www.indiepressrevolution.com/xcart/home.php) and carry a good deal of choice of these little books.  At first, I think they were worried about that $200 minimum order on retailer accounts, but they've discovered that the books literally fly off the shelves.  If an order arrives on Wednesday or Thursday, usually by the end of the weekend half the books are gone and several titles are sold out.  

Speaking for myself, I can say that some of the reasons include interest in the game themselves, but also a sad case of impulse buy!  :D  You see, many of these games are small, inexpensive and self-contained (I know I won't have to buy 20 clan or tribe sourcebooks...) as well as pretty.  Plus, they often trigger curiosity: "Oh, what a concept!  I've never seen that theme before!"  So it's terribly easy to let myself be seduced by these little books -- and they use so little shelf space!  I can read them on the bus, then try them the same weekend -- in other words, their small format and simplicity is an attraction.

Savage Worlds
It really is as Fast, Furious, Fun as its tag line claims. One book, that's it. With it you can play most settings.

The other books are to give fleshed out settings for those that like them pre-made.

If you like playing a character that starts as better than the average person, and you like rules that don't require a degree to understand. Check out Savage Worlds.
=

Not going to single out individual posters , but to answer some questions :

 The other workers at the store and I DO know role-playing games in general....but we each tend to have a specialty area.  I am of course thought of as the "GURPS Guy" .

My manager, who was just promoted to District manager, knows and plays currently in a WARMAMMER fantasy role play game, gas a D5 STAR WARS nostalgia gamew about to start. He has played and DM-ed D&D/D20 - but its not his favorite system.  The manager has also been a game supplement designer. (nothing you guys have probably heard of ...one of his friends did sell some freelance stuff to WOTC)  He has also started playing in a GURPS:TRANSHUMAN game.

 Adam (the "Goth Kid") has been a player and storyteller with the World of Darkness system for years. He has accepted the nWOD and once a month is a storyteller for it. He also recently started as a player in a D&D game. He appears to know quite a bit about the Eberron and Midnight settings.

 Paul - the newest guy has a weekly D&D/D20 game. So he is aking the most questions about the stuff that he is not familiar with.

We have the major game lines. When I say "MAJOR" ...again I mean stuff that has a distributor.  Sorry, Indie Press Revolution , unless you can get a deal with Blackhawk, Diamond , etc - then you're not likely to show up in this area.

 The store I work at is part of a small chain, only 4 stores. We are the only one in Ohio. The other stores are all in the south.  The one I work at has been there since October 31, 2003, I got hired on election day the week after that.

Spike, SLA Indusries - we have that.  Could you boil down that description to maybe 4 sentences or less?  Think the type of blurbs that you see on the back of paperback books. The blurbs that work and are accurate.

 We also have : SHADOWRUN (4th & 5th edition) , EXALTED , Metamorphosis Alpha ,  Star Thugs , Ninja Burger the RPG , Call of Cthulu , .... etc...


- Ed C.

True20, it's like D20, but for stupid lazy people with short attention spans.

Quote from: AosTrue20, it's like D20, but for stupid lazy people with short attention spans.

Yay us stupid lazy people with short... Oooh!  Shiny!

Shadowrun - It's the perfect ixture of Cyberpunk and Fantasy. If you are familar with Storyteller, the rules are easy to pick up.

Exalted - White-Wolf's other flagship title. Incredible setting combined with over the top action. It's like Drogonball Z crossed with epic D&D. Throw in a little God of War to spice. Uses a LOT of D10s. Reccomend 15-20 per player. A battle between two Exalts is an Epic one that will probably last an entire game session.

Ninja Burger - An awesome game for one shots. Takes about an hour to prepare a game and maybe two to play one.

World of Darkness- An easy to play universal Horror system. You need it for Vampire: the Requiem, Mage: the Awakening, and Werewolf the Forsaken. WW also puts out a new line for it yearly starting with Promethean. An easy D10 dicepool system. Less than exalted 5-10 dice per player is usually good. I reccomend the official dice as well, as it makes successes even easier to read. Very Gritty and very fast combat.

WoD Dice- All the gamelines have their own official dice. These speed up play even more, as all the numbers 8+ are a different color. Can't reccomend them for use in other games because all the numbers 7- are harder to read. It makes counting successes almost instantaneous though.

Vampire: the Requiem- (I don't even refer to the differences with Masquerade anymore, unless people specifically ask) The quintessential vampire RPG. One of the prettiest books on the shelf.
Players play a vampire in a coterie. Games can range from pure politicking, to monster hunts, to introspective self explorations. Or a mix of all three.


Werewolf: the Forsaken- Easily the most action packed WoD game. You are a werewolf who is sworn to gaurd the border-marches between the spirit and the physical realm. As a werewolf you are a half spirit and this gives ou access to many different kinds of powers beyond just shapechanging. Just as versatile in game types as Vampire, however, Werewolves always seem to have something to do. It also has easier to grasp "bad guys". You have definate enemies in it.

Mage: the Awakening- Mage is defined by it's freeform magic system. As a Mage you are able to do anything you can dream up using magic. Mages are the descendants of Atlantis and have Awakened to the "real" world of Magic, Spirits, and secrets. Great game for Pulp action as wel as magical conspiricy, cthulhoid horror and what have you.


Hope these help :)

I can't think of a single rpg that I could explain to a non-gamer in a way that would make sense to them what rpg's are all about. As much as I love Weapons of the Gods, I fear for the sanity of any first-time gamer using it as a point of entry. So I would love to see this in shops more, because it deserves more airtime, but I have no idea of how you could sell it other than explain it's sources and references.

Quote from: signoftheserpentI can't think of a single rpg that I could explain to a non-gamer in a way that would make sense to them what rpg's are all about. As much as I love Weapons of the Gods, I fear for the sanity of any first-time gamer using it as a point of entry. So I would love to see this in shops more, because it deserves more airtime, but I have no idea of how you could sell it other than explain it's sources and references.

 I didn't say it would be easy.

 Hate to say it - but the easier a game is to explain , the easier it is to SELL.  That kind of matches that other thread where Pundit said if you can't describe your seting in a paragraph or less - then you haven't get a setting.

Thats also one of the reasons that D&D sells so well . MOST people have heard of it or know somebody that has tried it or played it for a length of time.

 I'm trying to figure out ways to give other RPGs a chance at the store. Games other than the 2 or 3 RPGs that are the 800-pound Gorillas of the industry.

- Ed C.

- Ed C.

Koltar,

I think as others have pointed out that just playing as many games as you can will be your best selling strategy.  From personal experience, when I'm not sure if I want a game or not from looking at it I'll check the "actual play" posts at TBP or posts and reviews here and elsewhere.  Particularly if a game is likely to set me back a few bucks I always like to get feedback from people who have played it and can answer some questions.  I bought Traveller, RQ, EPT, COC, Arduin, and D&D that way so it has worked well so far (IMO).

I'm trying to think of the short version of SLA Industries:

You are members of The Galaxy Spanning Corporation. You have guns, you have armor. Arrayed against you are traitors, serial killers and worse. Some of them have bigger guns.  You want to get paid, get to work.

Oh... and try to look nice for the Television. People are watching.


:D

Koltar,

Regardless of what you carry, you should dump your fucking distributor. Those guys are parasites who have done more to damage our hobby than anyone or anything else over the last two decades. Work out direct deals with the companies instead. With an amount of stock like you're carrying it's not even that much extra work.

Calithena - tell us what you really think ...no really.

 I don't know WHO is reading this thing.  Not going to see me badmouthing my distributor.  (I LIKE my job)

 Only distributor issue I'm really ticked about is that ACD /WizKids deal. That screwed over a lot of smaller game stores.

Spike, good condensing of your earlier thoughts. Thank you.
That kind of stuff I might be able to use with customers, when they ask.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarCalithena - tell us what you really think ...no really.

 I don't know WHO is reading this thing.  Not going to see me badmouthing my distributor.  (I LIKE my job)

 Only distributor issue I'm really ticked about is that ACD /WizKids deal. That screwed over a lot of smaller game stores.

Spike, good condensing of your earlier thoughts. Thank you.
That kind of stuff I might be able to use with customers, when they ask.

- Ed C.

Koltar,
Do you mean the exclusivity deal with Wizkids through Alliance? I thought they lowered their discount as well. Is that so? Other than that, is there something else that affects retailers?

FYI- HinterWelt products are available through distro and the offer still stands for comp copies.

Bill

Quote from: HinterWeltKoltar,
Do you mean the exclusivity deal with Wizkids through Alliance?

FYI- HinterWelt products are available through distro and the offer still stands for comp copies.

Bill

 YEs - I was referring to the Alliance thing.  I've confused them with ACD before. (I must be sleepy )

 Your offer of Comp copies I will pass on to my upper management and my local manager. Right now he is helping in thge remodel of one of our stores in Tennessee.
- OR -
 if you PM or e-mail me I could give you our address , if you want to send them directly to the store addressed to my attention and that of my manager.

- Ed C.

Quote from: KoltarI didn't say it would be easy.

 Hate to say it - but the easier a game is to explain , the easier it is to SELL.  That kind of matches that other thread where Pundit said if you can't describe your seting in a paragraph or less - then you haven't get a setting.

Thats also one of the reasons that D&D sells so well . MOST people have heard of it or know somebody that has tried it or played it for a length of time.

 I'm trying to figure out ways to give other RPGs a chance at the store. Games other than the 2 or 3 RPGs that are the 800-pound Gorillas of the industry.

- Ed C.

- Ed C.

WotG is easy to explain: it's kung fu fantasy based on a comic book (though getting hold of that would be hard). But the rules are laid out rather esoterically.

Heavy Gear is a game with giant robots, an anime-western feel, and a lot of really neat setting material that will give you ideas for dozens of different campaigns. If they like anime, westerns and giant robots, Heavy Gear will allow them to play games that combine all three without ever feeling cheesy or stupid.

FUDGE is a toolkit for building whatever game you've always wanted to play. It's highly customisable, so you can match it to whatever kind of game you want to play, whether that's hard sci-fi, modern adventure or high fantasy. It provides a good framework for building your own game, and many supplements (as well as the core rules) are available for free (FUDGE products mainly exist as records of various rule-sets people have put together using it). Free core rules means it's easy for everyone to have a copy of them, rather than having to buy more PHBs or share the ones you've got.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is a low-to-middling complexity system that pits fantasy Germanic renaissance-era characters against horrific inhuman entities that seek to dominate the world. Heroism is often defined as the courage to face seemingly insurmountable odds because the alternative is too terrible to contemplate. Mud, blood, shit and gore all feature prominently, as does dark humor and insanity.