Quote from: Steerpike;760028Black Vulmea, that is really awesome and really gives me hope... I want to have conversations where we write stuff like that rather than bickering about things that really don't matter!

Yes, that was good, lots of constructive ideas.

Crucially, there were these acknowledgements:

Quote from: Black VulmeaSecond, it's not the kind of adventuring location that I'm likely to include in a fantasy game-world... I could do something with this, I guess, if I was at all interested in plopping a giant fucking tree down somewhere in my setting.

An acceptance of subjectivity makes for more better dialogue.

I'd just like to point out that in the wake of this thread's discussion I've been suffering from analysis paralysis as I try to put together a D&D setting. I'm second guessing all my "clever" ideas, wondering if I'm just being pretentious for no real benefit to the table experience. Progress is slow, and I'm sometimes tempted to toss the whole thing and just adapt the old Fighting Fantasy world for 5e.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;766460I'd just like to point out that in the wake of this thread's discussion I've been suffering from analysis paralysis as I try to put together a D&D setting. I'm second guessing all my "clever" ideas, wondering if I'm just being pretentious for no real benefit to the table experience. Progress is slow, and I'm sometimes tempted to toss the whole thing and just adapt the old Fighting Fantasy world for 5e.

Just put in a bunch of stuff you would find fun to explore and interact with as a player. Don't worry about internal consistency or what people on this board think. If the stuff you would find fun is weird, then go with that.

Quote from: Marleycat;760047That reminds of this book that is all jungle Green World or something. Each tree being so large that they literally an ecosystem to itself.

Green Sky, in Below the Root and two more novels by Zilpha Keatley Snyder.

Had it in my dungeons.

Yes, there are planets in my dungeons -- 'in' being a highly malleable relationship in a wonderland that is sometimes in a bottle on a mantlepiece 'inside' the world . . .

Black Vulmea's example also points out the importance of context.

Saying that I want to make a 'weird dungeon'... slapped like a decal on top of whatever setting... seems quite random. Weird for the sake of weird.

Saying my setting has forests of enormous trees... extrapolating to the thought that someone at some time has probably tried to crawl up and live in one... and/or that the trees evolved their own dungeon-like ecosystems... has more atmosphere and meaning and use to me because it's very much a part of the world around it and in that way not really 'weird' at all... but it's got flavor/atmosphere.

Something atmospheric I've considered stealing from WoW: there is an area in Pandaria ruled by the insectoid Klaxxis. The area has some HUGE trees that the Klaxxis seem to revere as gods. Each tree has it's own name. The Klaxxis culture is centered on these trees and their sap (the sap seems to be currency, food and sacred relic all-in-one).
They build their homes around, on and in them (there are 'dungeon' instances set in some of them)... as do some other creatures.
There are opposing factions of Klaxxi though... as well as ancient Klaxxi heroes preserved in amber waiting to be awakened.
It's all a lot more alive, interesting and complex than it strictly needs to be for the purposes of WoW... since Players have no real impact/consequences from any of it outside of the preset videogame railroad... but it could shine in a TTRPG.

Quote from: Simlasa;766619Something atmospheric I've considered stealing from WoW: there is an area in Pandaria ruled by the insectoid Klaxxis. The area has some HUGE trees that the Klaxxis seem to revere as gods. Each tree has it's own name. The Klaxxis culture is centered on these trees and their sap (the sap seems to be currency, food and sacred relic all-in-one).
They build their homes around, on and in them (there are 'dungeon' instances set in some of them)... as do some other creatures.
There are opposing factions of Klaxxi though... as well as ancient Klaxxi heroes preserved in amber waiting to be awakened.
It's all a lot more alive, interesting and complex than it strictly needs to be for the purposes of WoW... since Players have no real impact/consequences from any of it outside of the preset videogame railroad... but it could shine in a TTRPG.

Good call!

Don't forget to mention that the Klaxxi, like every insectoid race in WoW, are creations and servants of the Cthulhuesque Old Gods. And even then they're split on how to react to Empress Shek'Zeer's possession by the Sha of Fear (technically a fragment or echo of the dead Old God of Pandaria, Y'Shaarj). And the anti-Sha faction recruits the PCs to find and release the sleeping, amber-encased Paragons even as the Sha-dominated Empress orders the invasion of Pandaren lands in violation of a millennial truce.

WoW's "lore" is full of such pearls, that can make for awesome tabletop gaming material. But this is certainly the best to come out of a boring-as-fuck expansion.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;756914Alright, this just seems like a matter of subjective taste here, and I'm having trouble figuring out where you're coming from. Tell you what, I've given off-the-top-of-my-head examples, so I'd like to see yours, and I really do mean than in a spirit of polite inquiry, not as a setup for "gotcha!" criticism. What kind of non-combat encounter do you consider interesting enough to pencil in between "20x20 room full of orcs" and "10x60 hallway with pendulum traps"?

Making the dungeon interesting is the referee's JOB.  Perhaps if your orcs actually rolled for reaction to the players and had the possibility of speaking to them instead of "just like a computer game mindlessly attacking" it would be more interesting.

There are no boring dungeons.  There are only boring referees.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;756914"There's this gigantic tree over here on the map and its insides are known to organically generate items useful for resurrection and regeneration magic, but it's also full of weird critters and unknown shit. You guys can visit it if you want, or not, there's also the crypt of the scarlet mask-maker over here and the troll grottos over there. Whatever."

"Let's kill the weird critters and take over the tree."  And if the tree dies, "Fuck it, let's see if we can sell any of the bits of the dead tree."

And then "Let's sail to the Island of Horny Women and find the Red-Headed Huge-Hootered Winklekisser."

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;759893But why bother when all the true player agency and conflict you need is covered by Greyhawk, right?

Are you stupid, or are you an asshole, or do you just have really really bad reading comprehension?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;766460I'd just like to point out that in the wake of this thread's discussion I've been suffering from analysis paralysis as I try to put together a D&D setting. I'm second guessing all my "clever" ideas, wondering if I'm just being pretentious for no real benefit to the table experience. Progress is slow, and I'm sometimes tempted to toss the whole thing and just adapt the old Fighting Fantasy world for 5e.

Make up some shit you think will be fun.
Play the game.
If not fun toss it and make up some other shit you think will be fun.
Repeat until fun.




In my experience, "clever" comes across as pretentious and boring, or else random and bullshit, about 99 44/100 per cent of the time.

As has been said repeatedly, if you can't run a basic dungeon in a fun manner, putting Groucho Marx false nose, mustache, and eyeglasses on it won't help.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;766460I'd just like to point out that in the wake of this thread's discussion I've been suffering from analysis paralysis as I try to put together a D&D setting. I'm second guessing all my "clever" ideas, wondering if I'm just being pretentious for no real benefit to the table experience. Progress is slow, and I'm sometimes tempted to toss the whole thing and just adapt the old Fighting Fantasy world for 5e.

Let the setting build itself. Don't try and craft a complete ready made world. No setting completely survives contact with the players anyhow. Just create enough to get started and get to playing. Ideas to expand on what you have will present themselves through what happens in the campaign.

D&D games take place (ideally) in a world in motion. Such a place is constantly changing and evolving and if you try and "finish" creating a world before you start playing then you will never get to play.

Quote from: Old Geezer;766701Are you stupid, or are you an asshole, or do you just have really really bad reading comprehension?

Well that post is severed from its context. Earlier in the thread every idea I proposed what dismissed on the basis that it could be done in a conventional setting with just a bit of re-skinning and that I was being foolish to seek novelty. That line on my part was trying to see where exactly some of the posters drew the line on reductiveness.

If it makes any difference I regret that post.

Quote from: The Butcher;766646Don't forget to mention that the Klaxxi, like every insectoid race in WoW, are creations and servants of the Cthulhuesque Old Gods.

Actually, I wasn't aware of that. I knew of Cthun's meddling with Silithid and the inhabitants of Ahn Kiraj... but not that it extended to all insectoids. I suspected the Sha might be Old One related...but haven't seen that spelled out yet (just got to 90).
I love the old Silithid/Kiraj stuff so I guess it figures I'd be a fan of the Klaxxi as well.

QuoteBut this is certainly the best to come out of a boring-as-fuck expansion.

I'm not fond of the Pandas but otherwise I've enjoyed Pandaria... much more than Cataclysm, which was pretty but never felt much of a destination... Deathwing didn't interest me much as an archvillain compared to Illidian or Arthas.

Sorry for the slight thread derailement...

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;766719Well that post is severed from its context. Earlier in the thread every idea I proposed what dismissed on the basis that it could be done in a conventional setting with just a bit of re-skinning and that I was being foolish to seek novelty. That line on my part was trying to see where exactly some of the posters drew the line on reductiveness.

If it makes any difference I regret that post.

I'll apologize for the "stupid or asshole" part.

But I sat down and read this thread in one go, and honestly, it seemed like a lot of the time you weren't actually reading what was being said.

But we all do that from time to time, I guess.

Quote from: The Butcher;766646Good call!

Don't forget to mention that the Klaxxi, like every insectoid race in WoW, are creations and servants of the Cthulhuesque Old Gods. And even then they're split on how to react to Empress Shek'Zeer's possession by the Sha of Fear (technically a fragment or echo of the dead Old God of Pandaria, Y'Shaarj). And the anti-Sha faction recruits the PCs to find and release the sleeping, amber-encased Paragons even as the Sha-dominated Empress orders the invasion of Pandaren lands in violation of a millennial truce.

WoW's "lore" is full of such pearls, that can make for awesome tabletop gaming material. But this is certainly the best to come out of a boring-as-fuck expansion.

Speaking for myself I got tired as fuck of WoW's "lore."

And the bug creatures are just monsters in different skins.  That's one of the huge differences between computer games and TTRPGs.  Computer games are much better at impressive visuals, but TTRPGS are much better at complex interactions between PCs and NPCs.

Quote from: Simlasa;766721I've enjoyed Pandaria... much more than Cataclysm, which was pretty but never felt much of a destination... Deathwing didn't interest me much as an archvillain compared to Illidian or Arthas.

IMHO, WoW lore has been wandering in a desert ever since they wrapped up the Warcraft III storyline with the end of WotLK. Cataclysm and MoP both have been underwhelming fluff-wise.

Currently I'd say the best fantasy video game fluff out there is Elder Scrolls (ran by TSR alumnus, Lawrence "White Plume Mountain" Schick), with Guild Wars (also managed by an ex-TSR employee, Jeff "Marvel Superheroes" Grubb) a distant second. But I admit to not being familiar with Dragon Age.