Quote from: Shipyard Locked;766460I'd just like to point out that in the wake of this thread's discussion I've been suffering from analysis paralysis as I try to put together a D&D setting. I'm second guessing all my "clever" ideas, wondering if I'm just being pretentious for no real benefit to the table experience. Progress is slow, and I'm sometimes tempted to toss the whole thing and just adapt the old Fighting Fantasy world for 5e.

Do you have existing players as a GM?  If so, you're doing something right.  One person's fantastical is another person's gonzo, one person's elegant is another person's simplistic, etc.

Just post everything here, we'll tell you when you're being the Ridley Scott who made Alien and Blade Runner vs. the Ridley Scott of Prometheus.

Also, if the PCs are engaged with the people of Havenhill Township who you've breathed life into and made real, then heading into the Chasm of Chaos to eliminate the humanoid tribes that threaten them isn't trite or hackneyed, it's urgent, important, exciting and scary.

Stephen King can't plot his way out of a paper bag, and half the time can't even finish the book well, but Characterization - my god that makes it all worthwhile.

Life isn't very original, yet somehow we still find ways to enjoy it, don't we?

I'm concerned about "over-gonzoing" the setting I'm preparing for 5e. Now of course a little gonzo is good, I want this thing to be a little novel, but it still has to be accessible to the new players I'm hoping to introduce to the game.

For instance, my concept didn't originally use the basic non-human race array (dwarf, elf, halfling, etc) but I've decided to make a few spaces in the world for them after all for the benefit of players who really like them.

I've reduced, reined in, or dropped a lot of weird ideas, trying to stick to a few that I think actually add something to the play experience instead of simply pleasing my artistic quirks. It's hard to judge.

I'm using reincarnation rather than the standard D&D afterlife for one, with all the consequences that can entail for social structures and magic. Enlightenment is a possible but mysterious outcome that can leave behind magic effects when a person dies - I think this can be an alternative way of adding interesting beneficial (or harmful) magical effects to the landscape.

A greater reliance on home brewed aberration creatures alongside a complete absence of undead, demons and "orc/goblin/ogre" style creatures is a second conceit. This doesn't even need to be stated to the players, just a background detail they may consciously pick up on or not, but it should change the feel of the thing.

The increased presence and prominence of intelligent magic items I mentioned in another thread is a third. I just like the roleplaying opportunities they present, and I think players do too.

One thing that I have to keep in mind is that my typical player (established or likely recruit) is a video gamer, and video gamers see some fantasy tropes far more often than others and actually do complain about them. I'm not sure I could get past their eye-rolling negative first reaction to present an original take on an especially common idea, but I can try.

The whole campaign document (intended for my eyes only) is hovering at 15 pages right now. I'll probably post it here in time, then prepare a one-page player handout that the curious can look at (or not, accessibility means getting to the actual play as soon as possible I think).

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503I'm concerned about "over-gonzoing" the setting I'm preparing for 5e.

Dude, you can't overgonzo 5e.  Thaumaturgy alone sweeps every DCC image ever drawn under the rug.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503. . . I want this thing to be a little novel, but it still has to be accessible to the new players I'm hoping to introduce to the game.

That's a good starting point, in my experience.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503For instance, my concept didn't originally use the basic non-human race array (dwarf, elf, halfling, etc) . . .

What were you planning to use in their places? Or were you planning on going all-human?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503I've reduced, reined in, or dropped a lot of weird ideas, trying to stick to a few that I think actually add something to the play experience instead of simply pleasing my artistic quirks. It's hard to judge.

What makes it hard to judge?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503I'm using reincarnation rather than the standard D&D afterlife for one . . .

Do you think that would be fun for the players? If so, why?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503Enlightenment is a possible but mysterious outcome that can leave behind magic effects when a person dies - I think this can be an alternative way of adding interesting beneficial (or harmful) magical effects to the landscape.

Could you give an example of this?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503A greater reliance on home brewed aberration creatures alongside a complete absence of undead, demons and "orc/goblin/ogre" style creatures is a second conceit.

Are you prepared to have a range of challenges as they increase in ability? Are these "aberration creatures" just Cthulhoid horrors, or can they be negotiated with, allied with, or served? How do they relate to the setting?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503This doesn't even need to be stated to the players . . .

I disagree. If you let them create characters thinking they're playing D&D, but the cleric's and paladin's ability to turn undead is useless because there are no undead in the setting, then that can be off-putting for some players. Moreover, why would a character raised in the setting not know there are no undead or fiends or whatnot?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503The increased presence and prominence of intelligent magic items I mentioned in another thread is a third.

I glanced at that thread - it struck me as change-for-change's-sake.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503One thing that I have to keep in mind is that my typical player (established or likely recruit) is a video gamer, and video gamers see some fantasy tropes far more often than others and actually do complain about them. I'm not sure I could get past their eye-rolling negative first reaction to present an original take on an especially common idea, but I can try.

Must you constantly talk down about other gamers? Put your fucking ego in a box - it's not serving you well.

My advice?

Play it as written first.  THEN start to fuck around with it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;769511Dude, you can't overgonzo 5e.  Thaumaturgy alone sweeps every DCC image ever drawn under the rug.

When did Thaumaturgy kill your father?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769503One thing that I have to keep in mind is that my typical player (established or likely recruit) is a video gamer, and video gamers see some fantasy tropes far more often than others and actually do complain about them. I'm not sure I could get past their eye-rolling negative first reaction to present an original take on an especially common idea, but I can try.

The ONLY response to that that involves even the TINIEST bit of self respect is "This is my world.  It is full of stuff I like.  You don't have to play.  And if you give me any shit about it, you can kiss my sister's black cat's ass."

If my players complained and gave me eye rolling negative first reactions, I'd tell them to go fuck themselves.

Quote from: Old Geezer;769719My advice?

Play it as written first.  THEN start to fuck around with it.

Yeah, this.

If the designer is halfway competent, he's done more testing of the game before publication than you have on your first read-through.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;769643What were you planning to use in their places? Or were you planning on going all-human?

Dragonborn = They're popular with my players and I like them.
Kenku (paizo tengu style) = I want to experiment with a player race that has quicker access to flying and I like their sneaky carrion vibe.
Wilden = Plant people fit in with the starting region concepts I've been toying with, and I like the idea of a naive newly created race in a world of established ones.
Others depending on player interest.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;769643What makes it hard to judge?

Well, as this thread demonstrated, what I assume is obvious ain't necessarily so. Consider your next question about the reincarnation thing:

Quote from: Black Vulmea;769643Do you think that would be fun for the players? If so, why?

Before this question the coolness of the concept seemed evident, but now I have to wonder what I'm overlooking or overvaluing. I guess it allows for things like...
... players can interact with their past lives under certain circumstances.
... resurrection magic is fraught with ethical questions and cultural taboos.
... the emphasis is on the overall pursuit of wisdom rather than adherence to a specific deity's precepts.
... a different attitude towards the meaning of death, the afterlife, and what is worth pursuing in life creates different cultural flavors than the more familiar med-euro paradigm. I kind of want to clash the two and get religious conflicts out of that. I want to work something like the Cathar heresy into the setting.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;769643Could you give an example of this?

At the moment of death each intelligent creature undergoes some mysterious test of the collective wisdom of all their lives to date. If they pass, they transform into a permanent pattern of swirling energy on the mortal realm that radiates a specific supernatural effect that has something to do with whatever their final insight was. For instance, there could be one who reveals the leadership potential of anyone who approaches it (and is therefore both highly valued and detested for the effect it has on the selection of local leadership). These "ascended" creatures cannot be moved or destroyed, except by the intelligent weapons described further below.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;769643Are you prepared to have a range of challenges as they increase in ability? Are these "aberration creatures" just Cthulhoid horrors, or can they be negotiated with, allied with, or served? How do they relate to the setting?

I homebrewed 85% of my creatures in 3e and 4e, so doing it in 5e will be a doddle. While they are meant to be unnatural "glitches" in the natural order of the world they aren't Cthulhoid nightmares so much as weird mutants, as I'm not going for a cosmic horror vibe. Some of them are mindless beasts, some of them are charming depraved artists who build crazy dungeons as an act of self-expression.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;769643I disagree. If you let them create characters thinking they're playing D&D, but the cleric's and paladin's ability to turn undead is useless because there are no undead in the setting, then that can be off-putting for some players. Moreover, why would a character raised in the setting not know there are no undead or fiends or whatnot?

I wasn't specific about how I've handled it in the past, sorry. Players who took classes that have features relating to creature types I don't use (usually undead) are notified and compensated, but everyone else is free to ask about it if they consciously notice it. Of course their characters would know some stuff, but in an exploratory game I prefer not to share the majority of the bestiary. Part of the appeal of homebrewing is the surprise factor.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;769643I glanced at that thread - it struck me as change-for-change's-sake.

Welp, I really like the concept and I'm sticking to that gun. I'm open to the idea that pushing it too hard as a core setting conflict would be too pretentious, and that I should just restrict myself to an unusually high number of well realized intelligent weapons lying around like in any other D&D setting. I'm on the fence about it.

Quote from: Old Geezer;769719My advice?

Play it as written first.  THEN start to fuck around with it.

Well I wasn't looking at major rule changes, but at this point yes, I'm seriously tempted to run a straightforward module first.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769825Dragonborn = They're popular with my players and I like them.

Okay.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769825Kenku (paizo tengu style) = I want to experiment with a player race that has quicker access to flying and I like their sneaky carrion vibe.
Wilden = Plant people fit in with the starting region concepts I've been toying with, and I like the idea of a naive newly created race in a world of established ones.

As a player, do you ever say to yourself, 'Man, I've always wanted to play a sentient plant new to the world!'

What do you think playing these races brings to the campaign that the traditional races, or something close to them, do not? Why should I as a player be more interested in playing these races?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769825Before this question the coolness of the concept seemed evident, but now I have to wonder what I'm overlooking or overvaluing. I guess it allows for things like...
... players can interact with their past lives under certain circumstances.
... resurrection magic is fraught with ethical questions and cultural taboos.
... the emphasis is on the overall pursuit of wisdom rather than adherence to a specific deity's precepts.
... a different attitude towards the meaning of death, the afterlife, and what is worth pursuing in life creates different cultural flavors than the more familiar med-euro paradigm. I kind of want to clash the two and get religious conflicts out of that. I want to work something like the Cathar heresy into the setting.

So, resurrection is available, but frowned upon?

For a moment, put aside the 'search for enlightenment' stuff - what are the practical, game implications for a player character who is reincarnated? How exactly is this supposed to work?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769825At the moment of death each intelligent creature undergoes some mysterious test of the collective wisdom of all their lives to date. If they pass, they transform into a permanent pattern of swirling energy on the mortal realm that radiates a specific supernatural effect that has something to do with whatever their final insight was. For instance, there could be one who reveals the leadership potential of anyone who approaches it (and is therefore both highly valued and detested for the effect it has on the selection of local leadership). These "ascended" creatures cannot be moved or destroyed, except by the intelligent weapons described further below.

So, a reskinned magic fountain, then.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769825I homebrewed 85% of my creatures in 3e and 4e, so doing it in 5e will be a doddle. While they are meant to be unnatural "glitches" in the natural order of the world they aren't Cthulhoid nightmares so much as weird mutants, as I'm not going for a cosmic horror vibe. Some of them are mindless beasts, some of them are charming depraved artists who build crazy dungeons as an act of self-expression.

Okay, but my question is, what are the ways in which players interact with these mutants? Do these mutants have cultures? organise societies? or are they horrors lurking on the edges of civilisation?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769825Of course their characters would know some stuff, but in an exploratory game I prefer not to share the majority of the bestiary.

Consider what the player characters are likely to know. Is it, 'Here be mutants,' or do these things arise spontaneously?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769825Part of the appeal of homebrewing is the surprise factor.

What makes something a surprise is a recognizable baseline from which it diverges. Nothing by surprises means the game-world could be completely random.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769825Welp, I really like the concept and I'm sticking to that gun.

Okay.

What does it do for the players? for the campaign?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;769825I'm open to the idea that pushing it too hard as a core setting conflict would be too pretentious, and that I should just restrict myself to an unusually high number of well realized intelligent weapons lying around like in any other D&D setting.

:confused:

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022As a player, do you ever say to yourself, 'Man, I've always wanted to play a sentient plant new to the world!'

What do you think playing these races brings to the campaign that the traditional races, or something close to them, do not? Why should I as a player be more interested in playing these races?

As a racial perk, the plant character doesn't have to participate in census surveys.

The census bureau doesn't count plants or candy bars.

Quote from: Rincewind1;769721When did Thaumaturgy kill your father?

It didn't, it turned him into a slo-mo special effect Neo wannabe, which is arguably worse.

Disclaimer: I did not just claim D&D will kill your parents.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022As a player, do you ever say to yourself, 'Man, I've always wanted to play a sentient plant new to the world!'

When I first saw the race entry, yes, it sounded good to me, and one of my player played one, although heavily re-flavored. But yes, I realize it's a bit niche and could face the chopping block.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022What do you think playing these races brings to the campaign that the traditional races, or something close to them, do not? Why should I as a player be more interested in playing these races?

The kenku flies, which is an option players don't typically get to play around with but frequently ask about in my experience. Why not build the opportunity into the setting? Also, there's something about the Paizo and WotC art for this race that just sparks "sneaky bastard" character ideas that don't feel the same with halflings (although could arguably emerge from goblins or kobolds).

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022So, resurrection is available, but frowned upon?

Sure, or at least frowned upon in some regions but not others, for extra conflict spice.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022For a moment, put aside the 'search for enlightenment' stuff - what are the practical, game implications for a player character who is reincarnated? How exactly is this supposed to work?

I guess I was going to figure it out during the design process or when the players decided it was something they wanted to explore/exploit.

Perhaps some supernatural phenomena can cause you to randomly acquire traits of past lives, which can be a good or bad thing depending on the circumstances?

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022So, a reskinned magic fountain, then.

Yes, but with the distinction that no wizard or god was needed to put it there, which allows certain setting assumptions to work better.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022Okay, but my question is, what are the ways in which players interact with these mutants? Do these mutants have cultures? organise societies? or are they horrors lurking on the edges of civilisation?

90% horrors lurking on the edges of civilization, 10% infiltrators/subverters.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022Consider what the player characters are likely to know. Is it, 'Here be mutants,' or do these things arise spontaneously?

Some are established strains, but new ones are emerging all the time from the aftereffects of an ancient mistake.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022What makes something a surprise is a recognizable baseline from which it diverges. Nothing by surprises means the game-world could be completely random.

Well aside from ideas I've been discussing the civilized places would be pretty standard fantasy, so civilization will be the baseline and the wilderness will be the surprises.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022What does it do for the players? for the campaign?

What intelligent weapons usually do to/for D&D players and campaigns, but with a higher frequency.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;770022:confused:

Well let me use the example of dragons. In most D&D campaign settings dragons are standard feature but not super significant to the setting. In some atypical settings there are almost no dragons (Ravenloft), a lot more dragons than usual (Dragonlance), or dragons are a major component (Council of Wyrms). These adjustments have an impact on the flavor of the place.

So now switch in intelligent items for dragons. What I'm deciding is whether I have more intelligent items than usual or whether they are a major component.

I guess nowadays I'd be called an "everything and the kitchen sink" kind of D&Der -- but that was a part of the game's basic appeal. It wasn't limited to a particular little world, like fantasy games that were in a sense just historical gaming redux. It was more like the anything-goes multiverses of Marvel and DC comics, before there was a decent game specifically for that genre.

With wide-open options, the players can choose for themselves what to explore!