I don't know for sure, but suspect he meant something that has often been said about various forms of D&D: the values of your ability scores make little difference to your character's actual ability to do most things, at least in the RAW.

Of course all editions (including OD&D) have a few advantages or disadvantages that kick in at certain thresholds, but for most ranges of most stats it just doesn't matter. e.g., in most editions a ST 12 character isn't really significantly stronger than a ST 9 character, at least in any sense that gets expressed in the game rules.

This critique is obviously true if you are basing your arguments on what the words printed in these games actually say. So, the only counter-argument I suspect we'll hear is that you were supposed to intuit the intention that you would go create your own set of shadow rules where ability scores make a difference.

If someone has been waiting to say something else insulting about people who read and discuss what these old games actually say, this is your cue!

"My only regret is that I have but one life to lose for OD&D."--Oris, elf.  Died at level 2.

Quote from: Spinal Tarp;748480Plenty of things I would've begged Gary to ommit/change/add but if I had to choose just one it would be to not include Clerics.

Yeah, whenever I make home brewed games I re-imagine clerics as either some form of wizard or some form of fighter, depending on what they like to do in the game; the thing that makes them special is a social role as a leader in a church, and perhaps access to some sort of miraculous powers. I don't really like them as an alternate spell caster class.

Quote from: Ravenswing;747599So what's yours?

Never played it.

It's not easy to find old school gamers in Argentina. I'm trying to start a Dungeon Crawl Classics game online, but so far I only have one interested player.

Quote from: Larsdangly;748516I don't know for sure, but suspect he meant something that has often been said about various forms of D&D: the values of your ability scores make little difference to your character's actual ability to do most things, at least in the RAW.

Of course all editions (including OD&D) have a few advantages or disadvantages that kick in at certain thresholds, but for most ranges of most stats it just doesn't matter. e.g., in most editions a ST 12 character isn't really significantly stronger than a ST 9 character, at least in any sense that gets expressed in the game rules.

This critique is obviously true if you are basing your arguments on what the words printed in these games actually say. So, the only counter-argument I suspect we'll hear is that you were supposed to intuit the intention that you would go create your own set of shadow rules where ability scores make a difference.

If someone has been waiting to say something else insulting about people who read and discuss what these old games actually say, this is your cue!

I have no idea who taught you math but for most of the world, a 12 is greater than a 9.

A 9 Stat provides a 45% chance to succeed an ability check. A 12 stat provides a 60% chance to succeed.  A 15% greater chance of a success might not seem like whole lot but over time it will matter.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748542I have no idea who taught you math but for most of the world, a 12 is greater than a 9.

A 9 Stat provides a 45% chance to succeed an ability check. A 12 stat provides a 60% chance to succeed.  A 15% greater chance of a success might not seem like whole lot but over time it will matter.

You are being totally obtuse. The ability check mechanic you are implying isn't part of most editions of D&D. In most editions of D&D, there really isn't any difference between these two ST values in any of the presented mechanics for saves, attacks and other actions.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748542I have no idea who taught you math but for most of the world, a 12 is greater than a 9.

A 9 Stat provides a 45% chance to succeed an ability check. A 12 stat provides a 60% chance to succeed.  A 15% greater chance of a success might not seem like whole lot but over time it will matter.

Quote from: Larsdangly;748561You are being totally obtuse. The ability check mechanic you are implying isn't part of most editions of D&D. In most editions of D&D, there really isn't any difference between these two ST values in any of the presented mechanics for saves, attacks and other actions.

Here's the problem right here:

Quote from: Men & Magic, p10Strength is the prime requisite for fighters ... Strength will also aid in opening traps and so on.

Intelligence is the prime requisite for magical types ... Intelligence will also affect referees' decisions as to whether or not certain action would be taken, and it allows additional languages to be spoken.

Wisdom is the prime requisite for Clerics ... Wisdom rating will act much as does that for intelligence.

The rules as written tell the GM to use ability scores to test various actions and situations, but it doesn't say how, and it doesn't give an exhaustive list of when to use them. Because different GMs have different ideas about how and when they should be used.

Quote from: talysman;748563Here's the problem right here:



The rules as written tell the GM to use ability scores to test various actions and situations, but it doesn't say how, and it doesn't give an exhaustive list of when to use them. Because different GMs have different ideas about how and when they should be used.

This is very true.  I think it was about 6 months or so ago I was going though old Dragon magazines and there was an article from 1979 about clarifying ability check rules.  That of course implies ability checks were used in OD&D by most gamers.

*edit*  Now that I look, there are rules for ability checks in Dragon #1 from 1976.  So an ability score of 12 vs 9 is in fact a significant difference.

Quote from: Larsdangly;748561You are being totally obtuse. The ability check mechanic you are implying isn't part of most editions of D&D. In most editions of D&D, there really isn't any difference between these two ST values in any of the presented mechanics for saves, attacks and other actions.

Exactly. No bonuses to bog standard die rolls thus useless to fucknuggets who can't see anything beyond bonuses.

Once you begin the bonus chase it never stops. Well shit I didn't get a STR bonus guess I can't play a fighter. :rolleyes:

Even worse, it escalates. Well yeah I got a STR bonus but it isn't an 18 so I'm a sucky fighter compared to Bob who does have an 18. Already the idea that if certain benchmarks aren't met then the character is USELESS having never seen a moment of actual play.

The characters are just fine. It is the players who are becoming more and more useless as this shit mentality gains popularity.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748571Well yeah I got a STR bonus but it isn't an 18 so I'm a sucky fighter compared to Bob who does have an 18. Already the idea that if certain benchmarks aren't met then the character is USELESS having never seen a moment of actual play.

The characters are just fine. It is the players who are becoming more and more useless as this shit mentality gains popularity.

This.  Crom's hairy nutsack, this.

Quote from: talysman;748563The rules as written tell the GM to use ability scores to test various actions and situations, but it doesn't say how, and it doesn't give an exhaustive list of when to use them. Because different GMs have different ideas about how and when they should be used.

And that was a feature, not a bug.

The problem is that most people are fucking stupid.

Six months after the game first went on sale Gary kept wondering why people needed every tiny detail spelled out rather than simply deciding.

After two years or so he realized that there was money to be made by writing more rules, and AD&D was born.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748502I would be happy to hear why you think ability scores are worthless and discuss the issue.

I think that using ability scores to differentiate characters in play is discrimination and emphasizes that people who are inferior are instantly worthless. I would have thought Kiero with his brilliant track record in social justice, pointing out the blatant carelessness in upholding a gold coinage standard in a fantasy role playing game and how it implicitly supports the idea of slavery, would have noticed. I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

All characters should have equal opportunities in the game, regardless of their ability scores. Otherwise, it just perpetuates injustices dumb people have had to suffer from smarter ones, weak ones from stronger ones, careless ones from wiser ones, since the dawn of time. We can't have that.

Thank you. :hatsoff:

Quote from: Benoist;748582I think that using ability scores to differentiate characters in play is discrimination and emphasizes that people who are inferior are instantly worthless. I would have thought Kiero with his brilliant track record in social justice, pointing out the blatant carelessness in upholding a gold coinage standard in a fantasy role playing game and how it implicitly supports the idea of slavery, would have noticed. I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

All characters should have equal opportunities in the game, regardless of their ability scores. Otherwise, it just perpetuates injustices dumb people have had to suffer from smarter ones, weak ones from stronger ones, careless ones from wiser ones, since the dawn of time. We can't have that.

Thank you. :hatsoff:

Annnndddd   the winner of this thread by HKO (Hilarious Knockout)........

BENOIST!!!!  :cheerleader:

Quote from: Exploderwizard;748352

Quote from: Kiero;748289That ability scores are pointless.

Fortunately B/X came along and fixed that.

I have yet to find them pointless. When testing an ability score for something, the score matters, that's why it exists.

If you needed to move a heavy object strength is pointless?

What about bonuses to earned experience?

 A few months ago a cleric in my campaign was killed. He had a 7 CON and the village priest was unable to revive him. I don't think having a 13 CON (and thus automatically surviving the process) would be seen as pointless.

If you are one of the knuckleheads that thinks the only point to ability scores is via a bonus to die rolls then it may be you who is missing the point of the scores to begin with.

I never played OD&D, unless you want to count Holmes which is Cliff's Notes OD&D. I often thought the bonuses and penalties for ability scores were such that you could just as easily do away with them entirely. This comes in handy when introducing newbies to the game: they can just jump right in and start playing.

Quote from: Benoist;748582I think that using ability scores to differentiate characters in play is discrimination and emphasizes that people who are inferior are instantly worthless. I would have thought Kiero with his brilliant track record in social justice, pointing out the blatant carelessness in upholding a gold coinage standard in a fantasy role playing game and how it implicitly supports the idea of slavery, would have noticed. I am shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

All characters should have equal opportunities in the game, regardless of their ability scores. Otherwise, it just perpetuates injustices dumb people have had to suffer from smarter ones, weak ones from stronger ones, careless ones from wiser ones, since the dawn of time. We can't have that.

Thank you. :hatsoff:

I don't know what you're smoking, but I couldn't give a toss about "social justice".

That thread rather aptly demonstrated why I think most fantasy settings are shite compared to using history itself.