One of the things that I thought was pretty cool about Numenera is that the majority of the cyphers (its "magic items") are single-use, and since the setting is one billion years into the Earth's future and is built upon nine previous "worlds" (it's known as the Ninth World), the forms in which these cyphers take place are legion.  But they're only single-use AND there's an in-game justification for limiting the amount of cyphers a character can possess on their person at any one time, so it encourages using them regularly.

Then there are artifacts, which are longer-lasting "magic items."  The reason these are longer-lasting and not permanent is that whenever they are used, you make a depletion roll (each artifact has its own depletion roll and depletion die, such as "depletes on a 1 in 1d20").  If you roll within the depletion range, that was that artifact's last use and then it's just a paper weight.

Other than that, I agree with the subject matter presented in this video.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1108800Before the Thief class was added, you didn't see the large number of mechanical traps in dungeons.

Before there ever was a Thief class, there was a 10' pole on the equipment list.

Quote from: jan paparazzi;1108805Or maybe Runequest.

Runequest is a bit of an odd case. It's as deadly as any gritty setting, but every character has spells and everything in the world already is magical.

Quote from: hedgehobbit;1108800This is similar to the Thief problem. Traps exist in the dungeon just to give thieves something to use their skills on. Before the Thief class was added, you didn't see the large number of mechanical traps in dungeons. Likewise, monsters resistant to non-magical weapons exist only because magic swords exist. IOW, if there weren't magic swords all over the treasure charts, you wouldn't see a bunch of monsters that could only be hit by magic weapons.

Looking at the sample dungeon in Underworld and Wilderness Adventures on page 5 seems to indicate traps were a thing far earlier than when the thief was introduced.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1108859For me, D&D is about finding lots of magic items.

I've run D&D this way before, and every time it turns into a clusterfuck. One of the major reason I despise the Forgotten Realms...got roped into running some modules before and I had to quit after a few sessions. That said, sometimes clusterfucks can be fun, but they usually turn more zany than serious for me.

I think a lot of the reason I limit magic items so severely in my B/X/AD&D games is due to some sort of brain damage I got playing Chivalry and Sorcery so much...when you have to spend literally hours of real time to create magic items, that shit is special.

Unless you want to play zany superheroes but in a "medieval" setting.

While I never liked the fire and forget system of magic, it's a good limiting option for minor magical items, I seem to remember some game with something like this, not sure, not my book and it was a looooooooong time ago.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1108859For me, D&D is about finding lots of magic items.

Not RPGs in general, but "D&D as Diablo" is good by me.

In stark contrast, magic items in my Warhammer games are like magic items found a Cthulhu Mythos game. If it isn't a tool of Chaos, it's a tool of Law that comes with its own price, or its some crazy Elf magic that permanently alters the user's reality.

In my Mazes & Minotaurs game, magic items are unique and tied to the gods, mostly as gifts. So they are both rare and come with an attachment to a higher power.

I don't mind playing or running D&D as Diablo if all the players are willing to do it that way.  I've done it and had fun.  I do very much mind running a D&D game as Diablo when half the players are not keeping track of their stuff properly.  Turns being a GM into being an accountant.  For whatever reason, my GM style tends to attract players that are mostly on board with the usual D&D experiences, but D&D as Diablo is not one they take to.  Not sure exactly why that is.

My system is fairly high magic (it also has item quality grades), but it'd be more accurate to describe it as high "low magic."

Some amount of potions or other consumables are common. Anyone fluent in Arcanos can try to employ a ritual and mid-to-large towns probably have a ritualist they can bargain with to gain copies.

Minor magic items; a ring that lets you use a cantrip, a weapon whose blade can ignite (no extra damage, but deals fire damage) or armor that resists environmental heat and cold (i.e. temps between -40 and 140 degrees Fahrenheit) is expensive, but magical artisans in the large cities can still manufacture it. Fine quality non-magical weapons and armor (the first step up from baseline starting gear) are similarly priced and generally provide equal or better benefits to these minor items (just more mundane properties).

On the other hand, major items (a staff that can produce various lightning spells, a flying carpet, etc.) are extremely rare and generally require both rare/dangerous to obtain materials and lost rituals to create (the setting is post-post-apocalyptic so the ruins are filled with lost magical knowledge). In other words PCs are mostly going to find them via adventuring (either taking an entire item or finding the enchanting ritual for one and then questing for the materials needed).

There's also a limit on how many permanent items a single PC can carry at once without their auras shorting each other out. It ranges from carrying just one permanent item at level 1 up to five items at level 13+ as you're better able to manage the interactions (and even then GMs are encouraged to describe non-mechanical effects of the interacting auras; your wand also gives off a shower of sparks in addition to the spell, the magic ring throbs on your finger, the amulet on your neck hums audibly as you draw or sheath your magic sword because you're drawing it closer, etc.).

Because it doesn't matter whether a permanent item is minor, major or an artifact; PCs have an incentive to not just buy minor items, but to seek out major ones since a wand with three different built-in spells counts the same as one with just a single spell on it.

In terms of GM advice for placement, the system recommends each PC find about one major permanent item every five levels (the system caps at level 15), but the math works even with no items awarded since there are no +1 swords... all the hit and damage math is in the PCs... magic weapons let you deal fire damage with them or allow your adjacent allies to use your defenses if they're higher or to push enemies you hit back one or more paces. More potent item properties also require the PC to spend some of their tactical (focus) or strategic (heroic surges) resources to use those properties so often magic items are about providing more options than just raw power.

As a result there's no magic item treadmill where you have to replace your +1 flaming sword with a +2 (or 3, 4 or 5) sword just for the game math to work. The magic sword you find early in your career can be your Longclaw or Durnwyn* for the entire campaign and not become obsolete as you continue to level up.

*side-bar: another GM advice sidebar is that every major item should have a name and a story. The party doesn't find a flaming sword... they find Emberstroke, the family longsword of the lost house of Evandur.

Quote from: Novastar;1108807In older editions (I'm specifically thinking 2E), a +1 to hit and damage was the realm of characters with 17 or higher Str scores; so it DID really matter. 1st level characters having a 20 STR with +5 to hit and damage didn't exist.

I think a +1 sword is quite powerful regardless of the system. You are removing a miss and adding a hit to all possible attack results, and increasing the damage of all your hits and crits.

Even the powerful low level 5e character with a standard array (+5/+3) is going to get in the ballpark of a 20% increase in their average damage, depending on the target AC.

For the older and OSR style systems with fewer modifiers, its an even bigger increase as you said. And having a much better chance to kill those low HP enemies outright is definitely a factor.

I find my own propensity for giving out items really depends on the system.

Quote from: Conanist;1108962I think a +1 sword is quite powerful regardless of the system.

No, it's not.  Power depends on the system.  

If your normal attacks do 4d12+32 and opponents normally have 750 hit points, the +1 does virtually nothing.  

If your opponents have '1 hit' and you already hit on a 2+ (and a 1 is always a miss), the +1 does absolutely nothing.  

There are also situations where the bonus provided by a magical item is duplicated elsewhere (the benefits overlap and do not stack).  

It is not possible to evaluate a benefit in a vacuum.  The 'power level' is related to the benefit.  Therefore it is not possible to make a blanket statement about the significance of a +1.

As a point of Reference here are some treasure types from OD&D
Type A Land
#1
8,000 GP; Gems: 2 x 50 GP; 11 x 100 GP; 9 x 500 GP; 5,000 GP; 100,000 GP; Jewels: 1 x 900; 2 x 1,000; 2 x 1,200; 1 x 1,300; 5 x 2,000; 1 x 3,000; 5 x 4,000; 2 x 5,000; 2 x 6,000; 1 x 9,000; Armor +1, Shield +1; Oil of Etherealness; Map To (Potion of Fire Resistance; Neutral Sword +1; Rod of Absorption; Potion of Undead Control)

#2
3,000 SP; Shield +1; Potion of ESP; Shield +1

Type A Water
#1
Gems: 2 x 10 GP; 2 x 50 GP; 16 x 100 GP; 8 x 500 GP; 5,000 GP; 100,000 GP; Map To (40,000 SP; 18 GP; Gems: 3 x 10 GP; 2 x 50 GP; 4 x 100 GP; 5,000 GP; Jewels: 1 x 900; 1 x 2,000; 1 x 3,000; 1 x 4,000; 2 x 5,000; 3 x 6,000)

#2
Gems: 50 GP; 7 x 100 GP; 2 x 500 GP; Jewels: 1 x 500; 1 x 800; 5 x 1,000; 1 x 1,100; 4 x 1,200; 2 x 2,000; 2 x 3,000; 1 x 4,000; 7 x 5,000; 3 x 6,000; 2 x 8,000; 1 x 10,000;

Type A Desert
#1
3,000 SP; Gems: 5 x 10 GP; 7 x 50 GP; 19 x 100 GP; 8 x 500 GP; 5,000 GP; Jewels: 1 x 800; 5 x 1,000; 2 x 1,200; 1 x 1,300; 1 x 1,700; 4 x 2,000; 3 x 3,000; 4 x 4,000; 2 x 5,000; 4 x 6,000; 2 x 7,000; 1 x 10,000; Potion of Control Bronze Dragon; Potion of ESP; Potion of Delusion, Potion of Clairaudience

#2
Jewels: 1 x 700; 1 x 1,200; 4 x 3,000; 1 x 5,000; 3 x 6,000;

Type B
#1
1,000 CP; 6,000 SP;

#2
7,000 CP; 2,000 GP; Gems: 50 GP; 2 x 100 GP; 500 GP;

Type C
#1
4,000 SP; Jewels: 1 x 900; 1 x 3,000; 1 x 4,000; 1 x 5,000; Neutral Sword, Flaming +1, +3 vs Ents; Lawful Sword +1, +3 vs Trolls with Locate Secret Doors, Detect Gems, Detect Traps, Speaks 1 Languages; Ego 8

#2
1,000 SP; Gems: 10 GP; 50 GP;

Type D
#1
2,000 GP; Gems: 100 GP; 5,000 GP;

#2
8,000 CP; 5,000 GP; Gems: 5,000 GP;

Type E
#1
Map To (Potion of Treasure Finding; Armor +2, Shield +2; Shield of Missile Attract -1); Potion of Oil of Slipperiness; Potion of Healing; Scroll of 1 Wizard Spell

#2
7,000 SP; 8,000 GP;

Type F
#1
Crystal Ball; Map To (30,000 SP); Map To (Gems: 10 GP; 50 GP; 6 x 100 GP; 2 x 500 GP; Jewels: 1 x 1,000; 2 x 2,000; 3 x 3,000; 1 x 4,000; 1 x 5,000; 1 x 6,000; 1 x 9,000); Oil of Etherealness; Scroll of 3 Wizard Spells

#2
Nothing

Type G
#1
30,000 GP; Map To (Shield +1); Book of Darkness; Scroll of 1 Wizard Spell; Manual of Exercise; Scroll of 1 Wizard Spell

#2
20,000 GP; Gems: 10 GP; 10 x 100 GP; 5 x 500 GP; Map To (Gems: 4 x 10 GP; 4 x 50 GP; 26 x 100 GP; 6 x 500 GP; Jewels: 1 x 1,400; 2 x 2,000; 2 x 3,000; 1 x 4,000; 5 x 5,000; 2 x 6,000; 1 x 7,000); Potion of Super-Heroism; Potion of Invulnerability; Armor of Vulnerability; Scroll of 1 Wizard Spell

Type H
#1
17,000 CP; 81,000 SP; 10,000 GP; Gems: 4 x 10 GP; 5 x 50 GP; 18 x 100 GP; 5 x 500 GP; 5,000 GP; Jewels: 1 x 400; 1 x 800; 2 x 900; 5 x 1,000; 1 x 1,100; 1 x 1,300; 2 x 1,700; 5 x 2,000; 9 x 3,000; 4 x 4,000; 2 x 5,000; 6 x 6,000; 1 x 9,000; Map To (Gems: 10 GP; 3 x 50 GP; 27 x 100 GP; 8 x 500 GP; 5,000 GP; Jewels: 1 x 600; 1 x 700; 1 x 1,000; 1 x 1,200; 1 x 2,000; 3 x 3,000; 2 x 10,000); Shield +1; Armor +1; Potion of Clairvoyance)); Scroll of Prot: Lycanthropes; Stone of Control Earth Element.; Rod of Cancellation; Potion of Fire Resistance; Scroll of 2 Wizard Spells

#2
17,000 SP; 20,000 GP;

Type I
#1
Gems: 2 x 50 GP; 4 x 100 GP; 500 GP;

#2
Gems: 10 GP; 50 GP; 4 x 100 GP; 2 x 500 GP; 5,000 GP;  

A list of Treasure Type Assignments in OD&D

• B,C,D, E, & F are in order of increasing value. Although D&E are roughly equivalent, D has less potential value but greater odds, while E has greater potential odds but lesser odds.
• A, G, H, I are all all special treasure basically assigned to only one monster each.

A:Men & Centaur and is divided into Land, Desert, Water subcategories.
B:Skeletons, Zombies, Wights, Hydras, Nixies
C: Ogres (+1,000 GP), Gargoyles, Lycantropes, Minotaurs, Pixies, Gnomes
D:Orcs, Hobgoblins, Gnolls, Mummies, Cockatrices, Manticoras, Purple Worms, Dryads
E:Giants (+5,000 GP), Wraiths, Spectres, Gorgons, Wyverns, Elves, Griffons
F:Vampires, Basiliks, Medusae, Chimera
G:Dwarves
H:Dragons
I:Rocs

Quote from: Spinachcat;1108859For me, D&D is about finding lots of magic items.

Yeah, that is where 5e lost me as a player.  My top complaint was the treatment of magical items and bounded accuracy.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1108970No, it's not.  Power depends on the system.

"Can only be hit by magic weapons"

That +1 sword might be the difference between life and death, regardless of how many points of damage your normal attack can do.

Quote from: Conanist;1108962I think a +1 sword is quite powerful regardless of the system. You are removing a miss and adding a hit to all possible attack results, and increasing the damage of all your hits and crits.

A +1 sword in OD&D is going to result in a bit over 40% increase in average damage per round for a first level character vs an orc. It will go down as the player levels up but the majority of the increase is from the damage bonus, not the to-hit bonus.

One thing I do in my OD&D game is to list magic weapons like: Sword +1/d10  Where the first number of bonus to hit and the second number is the damage rolled. This allows a bit more variety among low level weapons as you can have a Sword +1/d8 or Sword +0/d10 trading off to-hit bonuses for damage and vice versa.

Quote from: Brad;1109000"Can only be hit by magic weapons"

That +1 sword might be the difference between life and death, regardless of how many points of damage your normal attack can do.

Exactly.  System matters.

One way I've thought would handle magic items is something I call the "Gothic Model". If you haven't played it: In Gothic(the crpg) most good loot is horded by the faction leaders and not found on the mobs. To quote Lord Mandalore in his review "This guy has been there, done that, so HE has all the best loot." My variation of this is: The players cannot buy magic items in town because the local liege lord and his rivals are trying to amass them for their own private wars". This encourages them to go out and adventure for things. This and the "Weapons of Legacy" book for 3.5 I think would help.