Quote from: SHARK on July 30, 2023, 08:44:03 PM
Greetings!

I was reviewing my campaign notes, and making additions based upon my reading of various historians, archeologists, and scholars. It rather soon dawned on me that in contrast to the OSR prophets, and the founding parameters established by the early years of the hobby--in historical mythology, magic is *everywhere*. There are supernatural spirits *everywhere*. In Slavic myth, the Domovoi, the Kikimora, are supernatural house spirits that live in every house. The Banya--or Bathouse--has it's own Banya spirit. Every stream and lake has Vodyanoi living in them, and Rusalka spiritual creatures. The farm fields have savage Polidnitsa--a Grain woman that kills you with a scythe if you plough at Noon, or fail to provide sufficient offerings to her. The Finns and Bhalts have Goblins, Gremlins, and Gnomes living in the hills, and various elemental humanoids living in every natural feature--the forest, the earth, the rivers, fire, and mountains. Even graveyards and cemeteries have monsters and spirits constantly involved. Vikings, likewise have Trolls living under bridges and on the edge of communities, as well as dwarves, and elves. Oh, and in the forests are sexy Hulda women waiting to pounce on attractive men, breeding them, enslaving them, or eating them. Vampires, werewolves, dragons, demons, and giants--are also everywhere. There are lots of interracial breeding going on with angelic beings, demons, dragons, and supernatural spirits of every flavour. The Greeks of course give us Minotaurs, Centaurs, Nymphs, Dryads, and Satyrs.

There are Divine-Blooded heroes and women everywhere, as well as half-dragon children with humanoid form and magical powers. Half Demons? Yes, there are plenty of them. Half Human, Half Water spirit? Or Tree spirit? Or earth spirit? Yep, all of them. They all look wierd, or gorgeous, and have magical powers too. Half Giants and Half Ogres? Yes, they are common too. The Norse often talk about those people or individuals that are Giant-Blooded, or Troll-Blooded, or have somehow mixed with Wolves, Bears, and Boars--the famous Lycanthropes.

Witches, shamans, sorcerers, and wizards are also frequently encountered, both as protagonists and as antagonists. Oh, and these things are not *just in stories*--they are part of the daily lives of historical people and society. They lived all of this. It was not just some story told around the fore by a traveling Bard. FOR CENTURIES--many Slavic countries enforced the death penalty upon anyone guilty of using the "Evil Eye" on someone. That was real, codified law. People were literally burned at the stake for committing such crimes and wickedness. Summoning Demons, likewise, would get you burned alive. Related to these considerations, spellcasting, curses, and magical remedies were everywhere ad common. Magical and enchanted items, likewise, were everywhere. You needed to wear this, eat that, drink this potion, use these arrows, wear this magical fur, and wear this necklace of magical wolves' teeth to do whatever.

The picture of daily life within a barbarian tribe or medieval village within history is very different from what is layed out and presented within the game rules and traditions.

I'm certainly no fan of "Seattle 2023" campaign sensibilities--but the typical OSR hate for interracial breeding, different mythical race humanoids, lots of magic, spells, and supernatural elements--for ordinary, everyday people--not just special adventurers--does seem to fly in the face of conventions long established in real-world history and mythology.

Have you thought about these kinds of tensions and conflicts within world building? There definitely seems like there are a lot more going on in history and mythology that would make traditional OSR champions uncomfortable. And yes, I am also an OSR dinosaur! I love the OSR, but as a historian, and as a GM, I cannot help but notice the very different assumptions and dynamics established within history and mythological stories.

What do you think my friends? Yes, pour some good coffee and chew on this. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Most of my games are science fiction, so Magic usually doesn't show up and interracial breeding is tough when the races evolved on different worlds. Besides, interspecies breeding leads to furries......

Quote from: Jason Coplen on July 31, 2023, 04:20:38 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 31, 2023, 04:03:47 PM
If you give 10 people a box of crayons and a piece of paper and then tell them to draw anything they want with anything in the box, some of them will freeze and hate it.  You give them the same box, limit them to 4 colors, and tell them what to draw, some will now be fine.  And some of your original subset that was fine will now hate it.  That's basic human psychology.  There's really no way to square that circle entirely.

Bringing up crayons in SHARK's thread has me laughing. Well Played!

Greetings!

Yeah! That made me laugh, too! I have some friends that tease me often about *Crayons*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 31, 2023, 04:03:47 PM
If you give 10 people a box of crayons and a piece of paper and then tell them to draw anything they want with anything in the box, some of them will freeze and hate it.  You give them the same box, limit them to 4 colors, and tell them what to draw, some will now be fine.  And some of your original subset that was fine will now hate it.  That's basic human psychology.  There's really no way to square that circle entirely.

You see something similar in cooking show competitions too. The person with no sabotages, cooking the easiest protein, screws up. The one with the most difficult challenge, creates something creative and delicious.

I ran into this with our homebrew too. A lot of players need some sort of guidance from a class or packages or something. Just design your character, however you want, from these multitudinous options, gives them analysis paralysis.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 31, 2023, 04:03:47 PM
There is a line between "fantastic" and "kitchen sink".  Sometimes that line is a mile wide.  Sometimes it the thickness of a single hair.  It sits at the intersection of concerns over logical consistency, aesthetics, practical gaming, and more.  Not to mention the personal opinions on all that of the active participants in the game.

When I run a game in a setting I have devised, I want as much fantastic as I can reasonably get--without going anywhere near kitchen sink.  If for no other reason, if everything is fantastic, nothing is.  You need a backdrop of mundane in which the fantastic can act.  Otherwise, it becomes mundane wearing a funny hat.  Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want.  It is not what I want.

Someone else running a game, I'll go with mostly any conceits they want to bring.  After all, the GM is doing most of the heavy lifting.  Or if it's too much for my tastes, I'll opt out gracefully.

For example, when I'm developing a new setting, I actively limit the common monsters.  That's for several reasons.  Practically, I've got a few themes or ideas that I want to explore around those creatures, and that takes "screen time".  If monsters A, B, C are getting N screen time, than other monsters are not.  Thus, they aren't "common".  Second, I cater to players who like to explore new things in the setting--not brought forward from some prior game.  Ergo, there must be some customization of the main creatures in the setting--time for me to build it and time for the players to experience it.    If every monster is novel, those players don't get what they signed up for.  Third, by limiting the amount of common monsters, when I do want some spice/variety in the game, I can introduce any of the uncommon options, without any real danger of approaching kitchen sink territory.

If you give 10 people a box of crayons and a piece of paper and then tell them to draw anything they want with anything in the box, some of them will freeze and hate it.  You give them the same box, limit them to 4 colors, and tell them what to draw, some will now be fine.  And some of your original subset that was fine will now hate it.  That's basic human psychology.  There's really no way to square that circle entirely.

Greetings!

I agree, Steven Mitchel! There is a line there between "Fantastic" and "Kitchen Sink." I generally prefer Fantastic as opposed to Kitchen Sink. "Kitchen Sink" can often be fun and cool--but at the same time has this crazy, gooey texture where you lose anyy real sense of focus and realism. That stuff tends to irritate me.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 31, 2023, 09:25:10 PM

Quote from: Lunamancer on July 31, 2023, 08:50:36 PM
Are you implying that I have no room to "dare" to do so because I am clearly an idiot for saying D&D doesn't have to be played as high fantasy?

He's lashing out way more than usual in the last week or so.

I'd ask him if everything was alright with him, but then he'd probably just snap at me again.

Greetings!

LASHING OUT!!!

Some of the antics and alley-fights that go on here make me laugh and choke on my coffee.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Baron on August 01, 2023, 05:40:05 PM
Started to read this thread and it just went all to hell. Maybe I should go back to my sabbatical.

Greetings!

I will try and get the thread back on track! *Laughing* It doesn't surprise me though. People getting into alley-fights and drifting off into obscure, pedantic hate-fests is pretty common.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 02, 2023, 10:28:16 AM

Quote from: SHARK on July 30, 2023, 08:44:03 PM
Greetings!

I was reviewing my campaign notes, and making additions based upon my reading of various historians, archeologists, and scholars. It rather soon dawned on me that in contrast to the OSR prophets, and the founding parameters established by the early years of the hobby--in historical mythology, magic is *everywhere*. There are supernatural spirits *everywhere*. In Slavic myth, the Domovoi, the Kikimora, are supernatural house spirits that live in every house. The Banya--or Bathouse--has it's own Banya spirit. Every stream and lake has Vodyanoi living in them, and Rusalka spiritual creatures. The farm fields have savage Polidnitsa--a Grain woman that kills you with a scythe if you plough at Noon, or fail to provide sufficient offerings to her. The Finns and Bhalts have Goblins, Gremlins, and Gnomes living in the hills, and various elemental humanoids living in every natural feature--the forest, the earth, the rivers, fire, and mountains. Even graveyards and cemeteries have monsters and spirits constantly involved. Vikings, likewise have Trolls living under bridges and on the edge of communities, as well as dwarves, and elves. Oh, and in the forests are sexy Hulda women waiting to pounce on attractive men, breeding them, enslaving them, or eating them. Vampires, werewolves, dragons, demons, and giants--are also everywhere. There are lots of interracial breeding going on with angelic beings, demons, dragons, and supernatural spirits of every flavour. The Greeks of course give us Minotaurs, Centaurs, Nymphs, Dryads, and Satyrs.

There are Divine-Blooded heroes and women everywhere, as well as half-dragon children with humanoid form and magical powers. Half Demons? Yes, there are plenty of them. Half Human, Half Water spirit? Or Tree spirit? Or earth spirit? Yep, all of them. They all look wierd, or gorgeous, and have magical powers too. Half Giants and Half Ogres? Yes, they are common too. The Norse often talk about those people or individuals that are Giant-Blooded, or Troll-Blooded, or have somehow mixed with Wolves, Bears, and Boars--the famous Lycanthropes.

Witches, shamans, sorcerers, and wizards are also frequently encountered, both as protagonists and as antagonists. Oh, and these things are not *just in stories*--they are part of the daily lives of historical people and society. They lived all of this. It was not just some story told around the fore by a traveling Bard. FOR CENTURIES--many Slavic countries enforced the death penalty upon anyone guilty of using the "Evil Eye" on someone. That was real, codified law. People were literally burned at the stake for committing such crimes and wickedness. Summoning Demons, likewise, would get you burned alive. Related to these considerations, spellcasting, curses, and magical remedies were everywhere ad common. Magical and enchanted items, likewise, were everywhere. You needed to wear this, eat that, drink this potion, use these arrows, wear this magical fur, and wear this necklace of magical wolves' teeth to do whatever.

The picture of daily life within a barbarian tribe or medieval village within history is very different from what is layed out and presented within the game rules and traditions.

I'm certainly no fan of "Seattle 2023" campaign sensibilities--but the typical OSR hate for interracial breeding, different mythical race humanoids, lots of magic, spells, and supernatural elements--for ordinary, everyday people--not just special adventurers--does seem to fly in the face of conventions long established in real-world history and mythology.

Have you thought about these kinds of tensions and conflicts within world building? There definitely seems like there are a lot more going on in history and mythology that would make traditional OSR champions uncomfortable. And yes, I am also an OSR dinosaur! I love the OSR, but as a historian, and as a GM, I cannot help but notice the very different assumptions and dynamics established within history and mythological stories.

What do you think my friends? Yes, pour some good coffee and chew on this. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Most of my games are science fiction, so Magic usually doesn't show up and interracial breeding is tough when the races evolved on different worlds. Besides, interspecies breeding leads to furries......

Greetings!

Hey Jeff! Good to see you, friend!

Yes, the damned FURRIES!

People LOVE playing furries though, right? *Laughing*

In my groups, I often have to brow-beat the girls usually. The girls always want to play weird, rainbow-coloured and furry races. It is like they are expressing some inner rebellion by wanting to play some freak non-human race. The more animalistic, the stranger, the crazier coloured--the more they tend to like it. They make weird yipping noises at each other while they make these characters up, too. Getting all excited about how *different* their character is from normal, boring humans. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on August 02, 2023, 09:03:12 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 02, 2023, 10:28:16 AM

Quote from: SHARK on July 30, 2023, 08:44:03 PM
Greetings!

I was reviewing my campaign notes, and making additions based upon my reading of various historians, archeologists, and scholars. It rather soon dawned on me that in contrast to the OSR prophets, and the founding parameters established by the early years of the hobby--in historical mythology, magic is *everywhere*. There are supernatural spirits *everywhere*. In Slavic myth, the Domovoi, the Kikimora, are supernatural house spirits that live in every house. The Banya--or Bathouse--has it's own Banya spirit. Every stream and lake has Vodyanoi living in them, and Rusalka spiritual creatures. The farm fields have savage Polidnitsa--a Grain woman that kills you with a scythe if you plough at Noon, or fail to provide sufficient offerings to her. The Finns and Bhalts have Goblins, Gremlins, and Gnomes living in the hills, and various elemental humanoids living in every natural feature--the forest, the earth, the rivers, fire, and mountains. Even graveyards and cemeteries have monsters and spirits constantly involved. Vikings, likewise have Trolls living under bridges and on the edge of communities, as well as dwarves, and elves. Oh, and in the forests are sexy Hulda women waiting to pounce on attractive men, breeding them, enslaving them, or eating them. Vampires, werewolves, dragons, demons, and giants--are also everywhere. There are lots of interracial breeding going on with angelic beings, demons, dragons, and supernatural spirits of every flavour. The Greeks of course give us Minotaurs, Centaurs, Nymphs, Dryads, and Satyrs.

There are Divine-Blooded heroes and women everywhere, as well as half-dragon children with humanoid form and magical powers. Half Demons? Yes, there are plenty of them. Half Human, Half Water spirit? Or Tree spirit? Or earth spirit? Yep, all of them. They all look wierd, or gorgeous, and have magical powers too. Half Giants and Half Ogres? Yes, they are common too. The Norse often talk about those people or individuals that are Giant-Blooded, or Troll-Blooded, or have somehow mixed with Wolves, Bears, and Boars--the famous Lycanthropes.

Witches, shamans, sorcerers, and wizards are also frequently encountered, both as protagonists and as antagonists. Oh, and these things are not *just in stories*--they are part of the daily lives of historical people and society. They lived all of this. It was not just some story told around the fore by a traveling Bard. FOR CENTURIES--many Slavic countries enforced the death penalty upon anyone guilty of using the "Evil Eye" on someone. That was real, codified law. People were literally burned at the stake for committing such crimes and wickedness. Summoning Demons, likewise, would get you burned alive. Related to these considerations, spellcasting, curses, and magical remedies were everywhere ad common. Magical and enchanted items, likewise, were everywhere. You needed to wear this, eat that, drink this potion, use these arrows, wear this magical fur, and wear this necklace of magical wolves' teeth to do whatever.

The picture of daily life within a barbarian tribe or medieval village within history is very different from what is layed out and presented within the game rules and traditions.

I'm certainly no fan of "Seattle 2023" campaign sensibilities--but the typical OSR hate for interracial breeding, different mythical race humanoids, lots of magic, spells, and supernatural elements--for ordinary, everyday people--not just special adventurers--does seem to fly in the face of conventions long established in real-world history and mythology.

Have you thought about these kinds of tensions and conflicts within world building? There definitely seems like there are a lot more going on in history and mythology that would make traditional OSR champions uncomfortable. And yes, I am also an OSR dinosaur! I love the OSR, but as a historian, and as a GM, I cannot help but notice the very different assumptions and dynamics established within history and mythological stories.

What do you think my friends? Yes, pour some good coffee and chew on this. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Most of my games are science fiction, so Magic usually doesn't show up and interracial breeding is tough when the races evolved on different worlds. Besides, interspecies breeding leads to furries......

Greetings!

Hey Jeff! Good to see you, friend!

Yes, the damned FURRIES!

People LOVE playing furries though, right? *Laughing*

In my groups, I often have to brow-beat the girls usually. The girls always want to play weird, rainbow-coloured and furry races. It is like they are expressing some inner rebellion by wanting to play some freak non-human race. The more animalistic, the stranger, the crazier coloured--the more they tend to like it. They make weird yipping noises at each other while they make these characters up, too. Getting all excited about how *different* their character is from normal, boring humans. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Therin lies the rub with different races in either fantasy or science fiction.

Quote from: Buford Early during the Man-Kzin Wars
The problem with aliens, is that they are ALIEN.

In fantasy, most races are humans with prosthesis, but otherwise human in actions and responses. Unfortunately, that becomes the same in science fiction actual play all too often. For SF, the goal is to create a being that thinks as well as a human, but not like a human. In fantasy, the goal is to create a race which taps into the common cultural beliefs but still feels fresh and strange.

If the only race you have is human, there is no problem. Yet what is an elf? Besides the physical differences, what is it about their outlook and culture that defines them as elvish?

Quote from: jeff37923 on August 02, 2023, 09:31:34 PM
Therin lies the rub with different races in either fantasy or science fiction.

Quote from: Buford Early during the Man-Kzin Wars
The problem with aliens, is that they are ALIEN.

In fantasy, most races are humans with prosthesis, but otherwise human in actions and responses. Unfortunately, that becomes the same in science fiction actual play all too often. For SF, the goal is to create a being that thinks as well as a human, but not like a human. In fantasy, the goal is to create a race which taps into the common cultural beliefs but still feels fresh and strange.

If the only race you have is human, there is no problem. Yet what is an elf? Besides the physical differences, what is it about their outlook and culture that defines them as elvish?

Great question. I have no solid answer for it as I've been basically thinking about it, and the answers my limited brainpan come up with aren't very good.

One way I've thought about it is to look at the sithi and norns from Tad Williams writings. They were fine until he decided to go into details about them. He destroyed the mystery of them and made them mundane and now boring.

I've been saying that all "elves" are really "half elves" in most fantasy settings, D&D or otherwise.

Here:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2023/05/all-elves-are-half-elves.html

Having PC elves and dwarves robs these beings of some of their mystery (and weirdness). Same goes for orcs, ogres, minotaurs, and so on.

In this sense, I think all elves are "half-elves", as they are part human and part the fey elf of legend. Few people play elves as the dangerous, selfish beings of Poul Anderson or the semi-divine beings from Tolkien.

[Maybe you could have these watered down PC elves and also keep "authentic" elves and call the Sidhe or whatever. Other solution are changelings/foster children, etc. Humans raised by elves or vice-versa, so PCs can never fully grasp the mystery of elves].

The same pattern is observed in dragonborn (half-dragons), tielflings (half-fiend), warforged (half-machine), genasi (half-elements), centaur/werewolf/shifters/tabaxi/kenku/etc. (half-beast), aasimar/deva (half-celestial),  dhampirs/revenants (half-undead), and so on. They all stand halfway between human and something else.

Even more: they are CLOSER to human than to something else, having rational thoughts, human desires and free will.

[Dwarves and Halflings are even more obvious, often being portrayed as caricatures of scots and merry Englishmen].

It might be possible to have, say, wolf PCs (actual wolves, not intelligent ones), but this is not common at all - and I think few players could pull it off. Gygax is right in saying "humans are the role with which most are [...] capable of identifying with".

So, "half elves", IMO, could be a decent compromise in a game that doesn't allow elf PCs. So, you could have some elven traits, but keep elves as a whole a bit alien and mysterious. Although I don't think I've ever heard of such a game.

Elves became so familiar that they are now all half-elves. Orcs follow a similar trend. Once they stop being archetypal demonic (or piglike) creatures and become simply green-skinned humanoids (with an actual humanlike civilization), there is no further need for half-orcs. Or, worse, they might have NO specific civilization and customs: they can become paladins, mages, etc., exactly like humans. At this point, they ARE humans except for appearance and some vague generalizations (and even that is disappearing).

all i saw was "Furries, Furries everywhere" and dipped out

QuoteIn medieval Europe paganism=witchery=Death. Are you trying for an "authentic medieval" (whatever that means) feel? Well then you need a single monotheistic church that strongly resembles Christianity, all forms of "magic" are witchcraft and liable to get you executed, all non-humans are of the devil, etc, etc, etc.

That is incorrect.
All forms of magic are witchcraft and are leading to execution is not Medieval take, but Reneissance take, and specifically German Reneissane take, because Germans due to their pre-Christian traditions were probably most witch-fearing people in the land.
But in medieval period plenty practices later considered magical or occult, were disputed in much more neutral way - of course some Satanic worship or spiritism or putting curses was always condemned... but alchemy? astrology? naturalistic magic?

Simmilarily there were various theories about faerie/elf beings in medieval folklore - for instance one used by Chris of Many Numbers in his R&R - angelic spirits that neither kept faith nor openly rebelled and were imprisoned on Earth to wander it till their time is settled.

Adding various supernatural elements - you can totally kept gist of medieval spirit in more HF setting while making alchemy a respected craft, supported by Church equivalent.
And making alchemical tanks crusaders use to fight for Holy Land of Learsi.

QuoteIn this sense, I think all elves are "half-elves", as they are part human and part the fey elf of legend. Few people play elves as the dangerous, selfish beings of Poul Anderson or the semi-divine beings from Tolkien.

Look sure Eldar aristocracy were semi-divine people, but as seen in Hobbit your average Sindar, Silvan or Avari elf plebean while still more distinguished than most men (though less than High Men) is not really that divine and special, basically just pretty immortal man with less internal nasty desires. And while immortality change things, it does not change that much - especially since Tolkien elves also age.

Now faerie folklore spirits - yeah they should all be off.

I regularly have coitus with an elf.  She insists that she's actually Filipina but I know better.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on August 03, 2023, 09:32:52 AM
Having PC elves and dwarves robs these beings of some of their mystery (and weirdness). Same goes for orcs, ogres, minotaurs, and so on.

In this sense, I think all elves are "half-elves", as they are part human and part the fey elf of legend. Few people play elves as the dangerous, selfish beings of Poul Anderson or the semi-divine beings from Tolkien.

Seems sensible. More "elf-blood" than "elf".

And damn I love Anderson's elves! Vance's Ska also inform my world's elvish race.

Quote from: SHARK on July 30, 2023, 08:44:03 PM
What do you think my friends? Yes, pour some good coffee and chew on this. *Laughing*

As an anthropologist (at least in American terms), yeah. This is very much "situation normal". Chalk one up to the Nephilim after all.

If you want it--or not--it's all about setting design, right?