Greetings!

I was reviewing my campaign notes, and making additions based upon my reading of various historians, archeologists, and scholars. It rather soon dawned on me that in contrast to the OSR prophets, and the founding parameters established by the early years of the hobby--in historical mythology, magic is *everywhere*. There are supernatural spirits *everywhere*. In Slavic myth, the Domovoi, the Kikimora, are supernatural house spirits that live in every house. The Banya--or Bathouse--has it's own Banya spirit. Every stream and lake has Vodyanoi living in them, and Rusalka spiritual creatures. The farm fields have savage Polidnitsa--a Grain woman that kills you with a scythe if you plough at Noon, or fail to provide sufficient offerings to her. The Finns and Bhalts have Goblins, Gremlins, and Gnomes living in the hills, and various elemental humanoids living in every natural feature--the forest, the earth, the rivers, fire, and mountains. Even graveyards and cemeteries have monsters and spirits constantly involved. Vikings, likewise have Trolls living under bridges and on the edge of communities, as well as dwarves, and elves. Oh, and in the forests are sexy Hulda women waiting to pounce on attractive men, breeding them, enslaving them, or eating them. Vampires, werewolves, dragons, demons, and giants--are also everywhere. There are lots of interracial breeding going on with angelic beings, demons, dragons, and supernatural spirits of every flavour. The Greeks of course give us Minotaurs, Centaurs, Nymphs, Dryads, and Satyrs.

There are Divine-Blooded heroes and women everywhere, as well as half-dragon children with humanoid form and magical powers. Half Demons? Yes, there are plenty of them. Half Human, Half Water spirit? Or Tree spirit? Or earth spirit? Yep, all of them. They all look wierd, or gorgeous, and have magical powers too. Half Giants and Half Ogres? Yes, they are common too. The Norse often talk about those people or individuals that are Giant-Blooded, or Troll-Blooded, or have somehow mixed with Wolves, Bears, and Boars--the famous Lycanthropes.

Witches, shamans, sorcerers, and wizards are also frequently encountered, both as protagonists and as antagonists. Oh, and these things are not *just in stories*--they are part of the daily lives of historical people and society. They lived all of this. It was not just some story told around the fore by a traveling Bard. FOR CENTURIES--many Slavic countries enforced the death penalty upon anyone guilty of using the "Evil Eye" on someone. That was real, codified law. People were literally burned at the stake for committing such crimes and wickedness. Summoning Demons, likewise, would get you burned alive. Related to these considerations, spellcasting, curses, and magical remedies were everywhere ad common. Magical and enchanted items, likewise, were everywhere. You needed to wear this, eat that, drink this potion, use these arrows, wear this magical fur, and wear this necklace of magical wolves' teeth to do whatever.

The picture of daily life within a barbarian tribe or medieval village within history is very different from what is layed out and presented within the game rules and traditions.

I'm certainly no fan of "Seattle 2023" campaign sensibilities--but the typical OSR hate for interracial breeding, different mythical race humanoids, lots of magic, spells, and supernatural elements--for ordinary, everyday people--not just special adventurers--does seem to fly in the face of conventions long established in real-world history and mythology.

Have you thought about these kinds of tensions and conflicts within world building? There definitely seems like there are a lot more going on in history and mythology that would make traditional OSR champions uncomfortable. And yes, I am also an OSR dinosaur! I love the OSR, but as a historian, and as a GM, I cannot help but notice the very different assumptions and dynamics established within history and mythological stories.

What do you think my friends? Yes, pour some good coffee and chew on this. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

While that might be the case (I doubt everything was everywhere since they wrote/told about the heroes/villains), it all depends on what you're trying to build in your game world.

In medieval Europe paganism=witchery=Death. Are you trying for an "authentic medieval" (whatever that means) feel? Well then you need a single monotheistic church that strongly resembles Christianity, all forms of "magic" are witchcraft and liable to get you executed, all non-humans are of the devil, etc, etc, etc.

Thing is, I bet that's not what you are building my friend, you're building a high fantasy world with polytheism and where magic isn't seen as intrinsically evil.

But I HAVE built such a world before, only human PCs, all magic is evil and all non-humans too.

I have also built high fantasy worlds, it all depends on what I want to run and my players want to play.

I don't understand the need to justify your world building in fantasy.  There's only two rules that anyone working with fantasy need to adhere to.  The first is that there should be internal consistency in the setting.  If humans on the whole can't use magic then there had better be a good reason why a wizard can.  The second is if you're using terms that are well known and have a pretty firm image, then there needs to be a correlation between the term and the creature you present.  I don't care if your giant is 8ft tall or 80ft tall but 5ft is not a friggin' giant.

I am not a scholar on the issue, I was just a kid with a lot of free time, not a lot of friends, and a library card before the internet.  That said, I went down the rabbit hole of traditional mythologies pretty deep.

There's a clear line (at least in my view) between fantasy and mythology.  Mythology is what people actually believed and in many cases was the core of religion.  Fantasy accepts that things are not real but plays with the parts of mythology for entertainment purposes.  There have been a lot of mythologies throughout  the ages and as diverse as the cultures they come from.  Some have stories or beliefs where human could crossbreed with other living things and other do not, even if we keep it in the realm of European mythology.  One thing I'd like to point out that demonstrates the difference between mythology and fantasy is vampires.  There is no mythology that gives any quarter to the idea that drinking the blood of humans is anything other that pure evil.  Modern fantasy has taken vampires and made them heroes.  The same goes for dragons.  (Asian dragons are an entirely different thing, and completely off subject)
 
Humans that crossed with other living things in most mythology fall into two broad groups, the children of gods and abominations.  Outside of the deeply bastardized Germanic mythology that much of modern western fiction is based on, Greek mythology is the most recognizable.  In Greek Mythology, we have a handful of half human demigods that are seen as heroic and virtuous.  This idea plays out in the mythology of a lot of other cultures as well.  All other half humans were seen as the result of the sins of the human parent or as the result of evil violating a human.  These half humans are always something bad.  You have to remember, the vast majority of mythologies saw magical creatures as evil or at least extremely dangerous.  Gods were not magical, they were divine.

Some would argue that the King Arthur shoots holes in my statements.  My very legitimate and well read response to that is all Arthur stories we have are fantasy and not mythology.  Le Morte d'Arthur by Sir Thomas Malory is the source of nearly all modern takes on the story.  It was written as fiction for entertainment and to frame moral discussions with no belief in the in the folk stories it's taken from.

As far as the spread of magic, it all depends on your definition of magic.  In many mythologies, magic was ascribed as the cause of many misunderstood mundane things that took place.  Butter churning and beer brewing were seen as magic and were handled with all the reverence and taboo that magic required in some cultures.  One mythology saw honey bees as little wizards.  Another saw the burning of rubber and the associated stinky black smoke as a way to ward off ghosts and evil spirits.  Steel making was seen in some cultures as a form of wizardry.  From that perspective, yes, most mythologies had wide spread magic.

One of the trickiest parts of diving into mythology and get the authentic perspective on it rather than the modern fantasy perspective is that there's a lot of overlap between different mythologies.  Greek and Roman mythology is not the same but there's so much overlap that most people see them as the same.  It's like that with Norse and Germanic mythology too.  Add to that the changes that happen over time, and you can get into a real quagmire trying to sort it all out.

My parting though, for TTRPG purposes, old mythology is a great resource for ideas and flavor but it shouldn't enslave us.  I do this to have fun.  If I was really into authentic simulationism, I'd be playing historical miniatures war games.

Quote from: SHARK on July 30, 2023, 08:44:03 PM
What do you think my friends? Yes, pour some good coffee and chew on this. *Laughing*

I think the hobby has always had finger waggers championing the boring.

I remember reading a dragon magazine article in the mid 90's about running a Native American setting in AD&D. Basically it amounted to, "Hey, you know all that stuff that makes D&D fun? Yeah. Throw all that out and play this boring pile of shit. It's authentic. We promise."

And then I contrast that with the introductory paragraphs for American Indian Mythos way back in the 1st Edition Deities & Demigods which includes a lot of inspirational ideas, including a Sacred Bundle which gives a lot of mechanical benefits, more powerful than most magic items, but also this big long spirit quest to acquire the items for the Sacred Bundle.

Finger waggers achieve authenticity by taking away shit that's fun claiming it's not authentic enough.

People who actually know what the fuck they're doing achieve authenticity by adding shit that's fun inspired by the culture.

Obviously there were a lot of different native tribes with different cultures. And that is not being captured in the brief intro section of D&DG. But it definitely shows by example how you can convert actual bits of culture into fun gaming material. So have at it and have more fun.

Not some goofy shit that, yeah, there are no magic items, yeah, there's no treasure (noble savages don't believe in wealth I guess?), and oh, yeah, we're gutting pretty much the entire bestiary where now you basically get to fight wolves and coyotes. Have fun!

Quote from: SHARK on July 30, 2023, 08:44:03 PM
Greetings!

I was reviewing my campaign notes, and making additions based upon my reading of various historians, archeologists, and scholars. It rather soon dawned on me that in contrast to the OSR prophets, and the founding parameters established by the early years of the hobby--in historical mythology, magic is *everywhere*.

SHARK

  Nowhere in the "founding parameters established by the early years of the hobby" did it state that this type of magic wasn't prevalent. You misunderstood what WAS actually written.  Not surprising given the state of public education in the 45 years.

About all the mixing of species and divinity - Zeus probably knocked up rolling rocks. If it moved he did it. 

Quote from: Lunamancer on July 31, 2023, 07:47:17 AM

Quote from: SHARK on July 30, 2023, 08:44:03 PM
What do you think my friends? Yes, pour some good coffee and chew on this. *Laughing*

I think the hobby has always had finger waggers championing the boring.

I remember reading a dragon magazine article in the mid 90's about running a Native American setting in AD&D. Basically it amounted to, "Hey, you know all that stuff that makes D&D fun? Yeah. Throw all that out and play this boring pile of shit. It's authentic. We promise."

And then I contrast that with the introductory paragraphs for American Indian Mythos way back in the 1st Edition Deities & Demigods which includes a lot of inspirational ideas, including a Sacred Bundle which gives a lot of mechanical benefits, more powerful than most magic items, but also this big long spirit quest to acquire the items for the Sacred Bundle.

Finger waggers achieve authenticity by taking away shit that's fun claiming it's not authentic enough.

People who actually know what the fuck they're doing achieve authenticity by adding shit that's fun inspired by the culture.

Obviously there were a lot of different native tribes with different cultures. And that is not being captured in the brief intro section of D&DG. But it definitely shows by example how you can convert actual bits of culture into fun gaming material. So have at it and have more fun.

Not some goofy shit that, yeah, there are no magic items, yeah, there's no treasure (noble savages don't believe in wealth I guess?), and oh, yeah, we're gutting pretty much the entire bestiary where now you basically get to fight wolves and coyotes. Have fun!

And here we have a finger wagger yelling at the clouds that other people might enjoy playing in a different way than him...

Dud, have you ever heard of Conan? John Carter? Tarzan? Not all fantasy is, was or will ever be High Fantasy and it's a good thing that variety adds spice to life and to your table.

There is a line between "fantastic" and "kitchen sink".  Sometimes that line is a mile wide.  Sometimes it the thickness of a single hair.  It sits at the intersection of concerns over logical consistency, aesthetics, practical gaming, and more.  Not to mention the personal opinions on all that of the active participants in the game.

When I run a game in a setting I have devised, I want as much fantastic as I can reasonably get--without going anywhere near kitchen sink.  If for no other reason, if everything is fantastic, nothing is.  You need a backdrop of mundane in which the fantastic can act.  Otherwise, it becomes mundane wearing a funny hat.  Nothing wrong with that, if that's what you want.  It is not what I want.

Someone else running a game, I'll go with mostly any conceits they want to bring.  After all, the GM is doing most of the heavy lifting.  Or if it's too much for my tastes, I'll opt out gracefully.

For example, when I'm developing a new setting, I actively limit the common monsters.  That's for several reasons.  Practically, I've got a few themes or ideas that I want to explore around those creatures, and that takes "screen time".  If monsters A, B, C are getting N screen time, than other monsters are not.  Thus, they aren't "common".  Second, I cater to players who like to explore new things in the setting--not brought forward from some prior game.  Ergo, there must be some customization of the main creatures in the setting--time for me to build it and time for the players to experience it.    If every monster is novel, those players don't get what they signed up for.  Third, by limiting the amount of common monsters, when I do want some spice/variety in the game, I can introduce any of the uncommon options, without any real danger of approaching kitchen sink territory.

If you give 10 people a box of crayons and a piece of paper and then tell them to draw anything they want with anything in the box, some of them will freeze and hate it.  You give them the same box, limit them to 4 colors, and tell them what to draw, some will now be fine.  And some of your original subset that was fine will now hate it.  That's basic human psychology.  There's really no way to square that circle entirely. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on July 31, 2023, 04:03:47 PM
If you give 10 people a box of crayons and a piece of paper and then tell them to draw anything they want with anything in the box, some of them will freeze and hate it.  You give them the same box, limit them to 4 colors, and tell them what to draw, some will now be fine.  And some of your original subset that was fine will now hate it.  That's basic human psychology.  There's really no way to square that circle entirely.

Bringing up crayons in SHARK's thread has me laughing. Well Played!

I can't help but think of Jay (from Jay and Silent Bob) screaming - "I'll fuck anything that moves!!!" (yeah yeah I know he's riffing on Hopper).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 31, 2023, 12:58:44 PM
And here we have a finger wagger yelling at the clouds that other people might enjoy playing in a different way than him...

It's true. I do insist you wipe after a bowel movement, and you really should make sure you do that. If you want to re-define smelling bad as "a different way to enjoy playing" you're free to spend your entire day locked in your room, masturbating with your dictionary. I just don't want to be involved in any of that idiocy.

QuoteDud, have you ever heard of Conan? John Carter? Tarzan? Not all fantasy is, was or will ever be High Fantasy and it's a good thing that variety adds spice to life and to your table.

When did I say anything about high fantasy?

Oh, wait, I didn't?

You want to talk down to others for yelling at clouds when you yourself have to fabricate clouds just to have something to yell at.

Quote from: Lunamancer on July 31, 2023, 05:17:51 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 31, 2023, 12:58:44 PM
And here we have a finger wagger yelling at the clouds that other people might enjoy playing in a different way than him...

It's true. I do insist you wipe after a bowel movement, and you really should make sure you do that. If you want to re-define smelling bad as "a different way to enjoy playing" you're free to spend your entire day locked in your room, masturbating with your dictionary. I just don't want to be involved in any of that idiocy.

QuoteDud, have you ever heard of Conan? John Carter? Tarzan? Not all fantasy is, was or will ever be High Fantasy and it's a good thing that variety adds spice to life and to your table.

When did I say anything about high fantasy?

Oh, wait, I didn't?

You want to talk down to others for yelling at clouds when you yourself have to fabricate clouds just to have something to yell at.

Try and be a tad more original in your insults will you champ? (By your reaction I am right on target) Let me inform you of another fact of life (besides you being a finger wager screaming about wrongfun): For you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion (Hint, I don't).

So, your contention is that D&D (which you DID mention) isn't high fantasy?

And then you dare call other idiots...

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 31, 2023, 06:15:28 PM
Try and be a tad more original in your insults will you champ?

What insult? Your baseless down-talking is not an insult, but my calling out your shit-talking is? That's a perverse redefinition of reality.

Quote(By your reaction I am right on target)

The reaction I didn't have that you completely made up you mean?

QuoteLet me inform you of another fact of life

This aught to be good.

Quote(besides you being a finger wager screaming about wrongfun):

Okay, so besides a thing you made up. This is important context. Now it's clear by "fact of life" you're redefining life to be to your land of make-believe.

QuoteFor you to be able to offend me I would need to care about your opinion (Hint, I don't).

Demonstrated preference indicates that your demand to feel offended by me exceeds the supply of care I have to offend you.

QuoteSo, your contention is that D&D (which you DID mention) isn't high fantasy?

Nope. My position is that D&D is what you make of it. And that even if you play it exactly by the book, then it's highness or lowness of magic is heavily dependent upon the level and scope of the campaign, which is something individual DMs and groups have a great deal of control over. So either way, it's what you make of it.

Thank you for asking my position, though, rather than just assuming it.

QuoteAnd then you dare call other idiots...

Oops! Spoke too soon.

Are you implying that I have no room to "dare" to do so because I am clearly an idiot for saying D&D doesn't have to be played as high fantasy?

Quote from: Lunamancer on July 31, 2023, 08:50:36 PM
Are you implying that I have no room to "dare" to do so because I am clearly an idiot for saying D&D doesn't have to be played as high fantasy?

He's lashing out way more than usual in the last week or so.

I'd ask him if everything was alright with him, but then he'd probably just snap at me again.

Started to read this thread and it just went all to hell. Maybe I should go back to my sabbatical.