Quote from: S'mon;1002288Afaict a true milestone system is no xp, pcs level up at a certain point in the adventure or after x number sessions. .

This seems to be the direction my current campaign is heading.

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;1002322This seems to be the direction my current campaign is heading.

On Tekumel that works quite well because of the baroque, elaborate social structure.  There are plenty of in character rewards available.

It depends on the system, I think.  In a class based system where classes have different leveling points like AD&D then I'd assume XP.  In a game with a universal point chart like D20/PF I think XP isn't as necessary and milestones are fine.  However, even then I think that minor and major milestones should be used so that smaller goals are still as important as larger ones.

Pathfinder adventure paths have recommended placed in each campaign where people should be as a certain level, but those are just guidelines.  In my current game there are six people and since XP is shared from a pool, they are a little behind the recommended level.

Quote from: rgrove0172;1002112How would that be? If anything I would think the freedom of Sandbox would be enhanced by a system wherein the character's objectives and priorities determine their development rather than some arbitrary number of dead critters or coins in the pouch. If in your Sandbox they decide that they just HAVE to end the plot against Good King Nutcracker then that sounds like a great goal to mate with some XP, or even a level all its own. Dont you think?

That is a thought, the question is how does the GM evaluate the goal without investing his own preferences for outcome? One COULD envision a mechanic where the player indicates what THEY want the goal to be worth, and then the GM has a budget of that many points to throw obstacles. But is that actually a sandbox? It's an interesting idea.

There is one chap over on storygames.com who does give XP for player defined goals that is not just for killing or looted gold.

Frank

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1002138What happens if the players fail?  What happens if Good King Nutsack DOESN'T get put back on the throne?  What happens if they are hunting down Celerus the Nutpuncher and decide to join him and his Squeaky Men instead?

Essentially, I'm opposed to anything that ties XP to something that's "supposed" to happen.

Absolutely agree with this.

So sure, maybe there's a better way than gold or killing to assign xp for goals, but it also can't be all or nothing (unless it really is all or nothing). In any case, let the players set goals. The GM can offer rumors and rewards to entice the players, but if they drop those on the floor and go for something else, the GM should be prepared to accommodate or state "hey, shooting innocent peasants is not the game I wanted to play" (i.e. talk as adults about what you like and dislike if there seems to be a disconnect).

Frank

Quote from: Shemek hiTankolel;1002139In my case I really don't use xp, as it traditionally is/was used in D&D, any more. I much prefer milestones these days, and will advance them a level based upon the set number of goals achieved. Most of my current Tekumel campaign is political intrigue, back room deals, etc. It's hard to assign an xp value for convincing someone to do this, or for hiring an assassin, or administering a beating to the sod who owes the clan money, etc... Normally, I decide when designing a specific scenario or "dungeon" what I feel the reward should be based upon its difficulty, relatively speaking, and how many goals they attain with regards to the "big overall picture" in my game. Some other things that I watch is how they interact with NPC's, do they play by the rules or are they running roughshod and alienating themselves and behaving in an ignoble manner -something very important in a setting like Tekumel where the notion of "face" is quite similar to what it would be in Japan. Going forward I probably will eventually eliminate xp altogether.

Shemek

I almost went down this path for a while. And now I'm back to OD&D xp for gold and killing... The problem I see is how to make the game about the players goals not the GM's goals.

Frank

I ran a Fantasy AGE game for a little bit where I used milestones.  Have to admit that I wasn't comfortable with leveling done on my whim per se.  Frank gives a really good take on this above^

I should add one thing I no longer like is any sort of "role playing bonus" or anything that smells of: "You get more xp if you play the way I think you should play." Now I guess if it's a group thing, it's more ok, though honestly, I'm not sure I still don't think it's problematical (here I'm thinking of the various artha awards in Burning Wheel like MVP and Embodiment). I guess if there is a consistent trend that one person gets more or less of those than others, then it's time to evaluate the group of players.

Frank

Quote from: ffilz;1002375That is a thought, the question is how does the GM evaluate the goal without investing his own preferences for outcome? One COULD envision a mechanic where the player indicates what THEY want the goal to be worth, and then the GM has a budget of that many points to throw obstacles. But is that actually a sandbox? It's an interesting idea.


Frank

When I did something similar (though my version was more "quest XP" than "milestone XP"), the setup was a sandbox where players could do anything they wanted.  They'd get regular XP for overcoming creatures (however they did that).  But they could also set goals.  if they set a goal, I'd get back to them within a few days on what it was worth (in chunk XP).  Most players had two or three active at once, but some ignored it.  Though it wasn't that many goals, because often the goals they picked would be shared (and the XP divided upon success).  Then in play the next time, they could still do whatever they wanted.  Some goals had hard time limits, and some had softer limits.  We had some thoughts about preventing abuse by limiting the goals, but never got far with that, because the players were good about picking something they were serious about doing.

Why we did it this way was that:

1. The chunk XP from goals was a little more generous and less risky overall than doing stuff the normal way.  That is, I was fairly generous on setting the XP amounts for the goals, and correspondingly stingy on everything else.  Once a player stated a goal, they had a vested interest in pursuing it.  

2. This was our way of handling detailed preparation.  You telegraph your goal, you get some fun stuff to interact with related to it.  You make it up in the middle of the session, you get whatever the GM adjudicates on the fly or happened to have ready for the sandbox.    These players liked prepared detail.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1002381When I did something similar (though my version was more "quest XP" than "milestone XP"), the setup was a sandbox where players could do anything they wanted.  They'd get regular XP for overcoming creatures (however they did that).  But they could also set goals.  if they set a goal, I'd get back to them within a few days on what it was worth (in chunk XP).  Most players had two or three active at once, but some ignored it.  Though it wasn't that many goals, because often the goals they picked would be shared (and the XP divided upon success).  Then in play the next time, they could still do whatever they wanted.  Some goals had hard time limits, and some had softer limits.  We had some thoughts about preventing abuse by limiting the goals, but never got far with that, because the players were good about picking something they were serious about doing.

Why we did it this way was that:

1. The chunk XP from goals was a little more generous and less risky overall than doing stuff the normal way.  That is, I was fairly generous on setting the XP amounts for the goals, and correspondingly stingy on everything else.  Once a player stated a goal, they had a vested interest in pursuing it.  

2. This was our way of handling detailed preparation.  You telegraph your goal, you get some fun stuff to interact with related to it.  You make it up in the middle of the session, you get whatever the GM adjudicates on the fly or happened to have ready for the sandbox.    These players liked prepared detail.

That's a pretty reasonable way to handle it. I might allow for some negotiation, as much negotiation as would be reasonable if negotiating a cash reward. At that point, the goal award becomes an alternative to a gold reward where it really doesn't make sense in the game world to have a gold reward, yet as a group of players and GM, we agree this goal should be rewarded. And getting a better reward when you signal the GM what to prep is certainly not anathema to sandbox play. I think actually your idea is pretty close to what the guy over on storygames.com does.

Frank

XP for me

Quote from: Skarg;1002280What's a milestone?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell;1002285There are variations on the idea, but keeping with the metaphor, they all involve some idea of there being a significant chunk of XP tied to reaching certain goals or achievements.  For example, you don't get XP for killing the gate orcs, the guard room orcs, the bridge orcs, and then the boss orc.  Or you don't get it for stealing their treasure.  Instead, you get a big chunk of XP (possibly based on all the orcs, possibly based on their treasure, possibly something else, more likely approximated and rounded), for "putting an end to the orc threat" or "succeeding in your orc-complex objective" or whatever.

It's very similar to quest rewards in this respect.  A true milestone system, however, is assigned when reaching some particular marker while pursuing a larger quest.  That is, stealing the treasure from the boss orc and/or routing them is in service to a large goal.  In effect, "XP for gold" is a kind of milestone variant that predates the wider concept.

I see. Thanks for the explanation.

Quote from: Xanther;1002443XP for me

Well guess I should clarify.  I give xp for overcoming challenges, which includes combat as well as puzzles and riddles.   I give xp  for exploration, for example each room on the first level is worth 100 xp if just explored.    Best idea ever.   And  xp for deeds/goals but pretty limited.   Since I don't run murder-hobo games one deed reward I give is for prisoner rescue.   Lastly I give xp for particularly risky individual action or a character acting according to their own personal idiom (in a way that brings no other benefit).  I also give xp for interaction, parlay.    Parlay can always be risky so you get xp for trying.  

No xp  for gold, you don't have to kill a monster to get xp just overcome it, be it by sneaking, tricking, bribes or sword.   I always found xp for gold a poor proxy for xp for overcoming.

For us exploration, parlay and thinking of ways to overcome monsters without getting hurt have always been the fun of RPGs compared to war games or computer games.

Quote from: ffilz;1002377I almost went down this path for a while. And now I'm back to OD&D xp for gold and killing... The problem I see is how to make the game about the players goals not the GM's goals.

Frank

If gold and killing are your players goals then great.  In my experience player goals have been about adventure, exploration and interaction with the game world.   My changes in XP from ye ole 1979 are basically that rewarding what the players like to do.  Those players who really like smiting foes still get xp and found over the years gold is always its own reward as it allows character advancement even if just thru gear and power in the game world.   So everybody is happy.

I award XP for achieving the character's goals, and learning new things - you tell me which of those three it fits under, and we'll pretend I said that;)!