Quote from: Xuc Xac;1061410I've never crashed my car, so what's the point of having seat belts? They're a marketing gimmick installed by car manufacturers who want to get virtue signaling points for talking about how they care about their customers' safety.

Brutal.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061423Brutal.

Only in its stupidity. What a moronic comparison and typically dissonant of the NPC mindset. Seatbelts have been proven to save lives. There is no political agenda to that. X-cards haven't proven to make gaming "safer", especially since Leftist mantra dictates ever-shifting rules of conduct not even they can adhere to.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1061432Only in its stupidity. What a moronic comparison and typically dissonant of the NPC mindset. Seatbelts have been proven to save lives. There is no political agenda to that. X-cards haven't proven to make gaming "safer", especially since Leftist mantra dictates ever-shifting rules of conduct not even they can adhere to.

Given how the X-Cards currently work imo make it worse. Since we have to place Where Waldo and guess what the issue is. Which brings the game to a complete halt. With most players getting annoyed with the -Card using players not actually addressing the issue. It's just too me at least virtue signalling at it's worst. Apparently that means you and I are sociopaths.

The rules governing their use would need a major revision before they were to be used at my table.

Quote from: Xuc Xac;1061279I just read the X-card rules to see what it actually says. It's slightly ambiguous. "You don't have to explain why" can be interpreted two ways.

You use the x-card to indicate that something bothers you.
Option 1: You don't have to explain what made you uncomfortable. "What's wrong?" "I don't have to say!"
Option 2: You don't have to explain why the thing you carded makes you uncomfortable. "What's wrong?" "I don't like the way that NPC keeps putting his hands on my shoulders." "What's so bad about that? He's just trying to be friendly." "I don't want to talk about it."

Option 2 makes more sense. Option 1 is fucking moronic and defeats the whole point of using the card in the first place.

You make a good point. I honestly felt like that happened to me was Option 2 with my player. He wasn't a bad person. But sometimes I have to be mindful that this is a hobby with a higher percentage than normal of rules-lawyers, so...the existence of people that are going to interpret the x-card wording about explaining as Option 2 is a thing I have to be mindful of now.

Quote from: jhkim;1061288I'm not sold on the X-card for my own games, but I also don't think it's an automatic signal that the game will be terrible as some people characterize.

Welcome to theRPGsite, Forge. Thanks for your example.


I would say that as people, everyone at the table is responsible for actual healthy communication. "That's the rules" - regardless of whether it is the X-card or anything else - isn't an excuse not to engage in healthy communication. Like if the game you're playing has a badly-worded rule, then you as human beings can override that and fix things rather than let your game be ruined.

I have played in games with the X-card, but I don't have any personal experience in it being activated since it was never touched in the games I played. I also know people who have used it actively, and apparently had positive experiences. This could be because they still had healthy communication in combination with using the X-card.

Thank you--and I think I agree. If your group used it and they had positive healthy communication on top of it, I'd honestly hazard it's not really the x-card itself that helped; it was the healthy communication. The x-card was just a tool to facilitate that communication--but there's a lot of ways to facilitate healthy communication, so I don't think the x-card provides anything unique or noteworthy in this regard and comes with downsides that might not make it particularly the best tool to use.

I have no problem with other groups using X-cards if they can make them work, though I just really don't think they work as well as the hype they get suggests they do. (I don't really care to tell other people how to game--if I don't like how someone else is gaming, I just don't game with them--problem solved for me.)

For my group, though, it just ruined the whole game. Though I do hope my player comes back one of these days. He is not a bad person, but I think he freaked out and went rules-lawyery with me about the x-card probably because whatever he's going through in his life was probably more serious than he was willing to let on. I hope he'll come back and talk to me in a healthy way. Maybe some time will get my group back to its old groove and participants again.

Quote from: Xuc Xac;1061410I've never crashed my car, so what's the point of having seat belts? They're a marketing gimmick installed by car manufacturers who want to get virtue signaling points for talking about how they care about their customers' safety.

But you certainly have heard of lots of other people who have used their seatbelts to advantage. I've yet to hear anyone say "thank goodness there were X-cards in that game, or I'd be a goner!". No doubt must you know of many such people yourself, to put their use in the same category as an invention attributed with literally saving 15,000 lives every year. The actual proven value of seatbelts is exactly what makes their inclusion more than mere virtue signaling. The belief that X-cards are somehow important enough to anyone to be more than a progressive badge, I see no evidence of.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1061432What a moronic comparison and typically dissonant of the NPC mindset. Seatbelts have been proven to save lives. There is no political agenda to that. X-cards haven't proven to make gaming "safer", especially since Leftist mantra dictates ever-shifting rules of conduct not even they can adhere to.

Yep, and conversation of those specifics stifled on pain of excoriation. In the case of X-cards, it's even literal dogma, not even trying to disguise the agenda of control.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1061432Only in its stupidity. What a moronic comparison and typically dissonant of the NPC mindset. Seatbelts have been proven to save lives. There is no political agenda to that. X-cards haven't proven to make gaming "safer", especially since Leftist mantra dictates ever-shifting rules of conduct not even they can adhere to.

There were plenty of people that objected to the introduction of seatbelts, for various reasons, including restriction of personal freedom. I don't credit those guys with a lot of sense, even if they had the courage of their convictions.

The thing was that it wasn't just themselves that they were harming with their manly manliness. That's the comparison, if one is to be made.



(P.S. I'm guessing that NPC reference is something to do with that new meme from the same social cesspits that GamerGate came out of?)

Quote from: Xuc Xac;1061410I've never crashed my car, so what's the point of having seat belts? They're a marketing gimmick installed by car manufacturers who want to get virtue signaling points for talking about how they care about their customers' safety.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061423Brutal.

Moronic is more accurate, but you're an NPC.

Quote from: Xuc Xac;1061410I've never crashed my car, so what's the point of having seat belts? They're a marketing gimmick installed by car manufacturers who want to get virtue signaling points for talking about how they care about their customers' safety.

Exactly.  I never used them until my State started fining me.  
I can see a future where Game Conventions require event runners to use the X-card.

Quote from: Forge;1061435For my group, though, it just ruined the whole game. Though I do hope my player comes back one of these days. He is not a bad person, but I think he freaked out and went rules-lawyery with me about the x-card probably because whatever he's going through in his life was probably more serious than he was willing to let on. I hope he'll come back and talk to me in a healthy way. Maybe some time will get my group back to its old groove and participants again.

OK, but in situations outside of the X-card - if I had a rules-lawyery player who ignored good human communication and stuck to the letter of the rules that they insisted on, then I wouldn't say "Oh, these rules ruined my game". I would say "This player abused the rules, which ruined the game." In my experience, nearly all RPG rules will cause problems if players are sufficiently rules-lawyery and ignore good communication.

Quote from: sureshot;1061433Given how the X-Cards currently work imo make it worse. Since we have to place Where Waldo and guess what the issue is. Which brings the game to a complete halt. With most players getting annoyed with the -Card using players not actually addressing the issue. It's just too me at least virtue signalling at it's worst. Apparently that means you and I are sociopaths.

The rules governing their use would need a major revision before they were to be used at my table.

The rules don't require "Where is Waldo" - they just don't explicitly rule it out. If you have rules-lawyery players insist that if something is technically legal, then they should do it - then yes, this can cause problems. However, I think there's some doubt as to where to place the blame in those cases.

Greetings!

Yeah. I'm struck by the fact that if--according to Motorskills and Jhkim--that the "X-Card" was present in so many games, (and yet, so rarely used)--then again, what is the point? Like Zalman said, this whole "X-card" nonsense is nothing more than "Virtue Signaling". Furthermore, as someone also mentioned--and echoing my own suspicions--this X-card nonsense is yet another tentacle that the Leftist SJW stuffed animal people are trying to use to influence the hobby more, and gain more social control. That is ultimately what all of this nonsense is. In any good group I have been in, for years and years, simple adult communication works to solve problems. Like someone else also said, if some person is so mentally or emotionally fucked that they can't engage the group--and most importantly, the DM--in some kind of reasonable discussion, like an adult--then such a person isn't somebody you want at your game table. That whining, clutching the stuffed animal sentimentality--is a huge red flag that this person isn't a good fit for the group, and isn't ever going to be. They are just a harbinger of more whining bullshit to come. So, at my game table, ale and good cigars are available all around--but the X-Card can go back to the moron that came up with such a stupid thing.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Motorskills;1061441There were plenty of people that objected to the introduction of seatbelts, for various reasons, including restriction of personal freedom. I don't credit those guys with a lot of sense, even if they had the courage of their convictions.

This is hilarious: here we have someone who can't tell the difference between objecting to a thing and objecting to being forced to use the thing ... making judgments about other peoples' "sense". NPC indeed.

Still, it's fun to hear the convolutions people have to go through to justify the use of X-cards. If only mental gymnastics were an Olympic sport.

Quote from: Zalman;1061462This is hilarious: here we have someone who can't tell the difference between objecting to a thing and objecting to being forced to use the thing ... making judgments about other peoples' "sense". NPC indeed.

Still, it's fun to hear the convolutions people have to go through to justify the use of X-cards. If only mental gymnastics were an Olympic sport.

I'm not so much advocating the use of the X-card as much as knocking down the ideological arguments against it.

Personally I've not seen it do harm, and I can see how it might potentially be useful. Even Forge - who has experienced a problem with the X-card in vivo - concedes that there was likely more going on in the background than he was aware of.

But the direct experiences of Forge, jhkim and myself are irrelevant, the usual suspects here have decided that the very concept is something offensive to them. Along with non-harassment rules at conventions and the like.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1061432Only in its stupidity. What a moronic comparison and typically dissonant of the NPC mindset. Seatbelts have been proven to save lives. There is no political agenda to that. X-cards haven't proven to make gaming "safer", especially since Leftist mantra dictates ever-shifting rules of conduct not even they can adhere to.

Indeed. A more accurate automotive analogy for using X-cards would be banning racing stripes for safety purposes.  

Though even that one isn't perfect, since it's possible for a poorly used X-card to do some harm.  I have a difficult time seeing a ban on racing stripes doing anything more than annoying a few people.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061441There were plenty of people that objected to the introduction of seatbelts, for various reasons, including restriction of personal freedom. I don't credit those guys with a lot of sense, even if they had the courage of their convictions.

The thing was that it wasn't just themselves that they were harming with their manly manliness. That's the comparison, if one is to be made.



(P.S. I'm guessing that NPC reference is something to do with that new meme from the same social cesspits that GamerGate came out of?)

"Manly manliness"? Jumpin' Jesus on a Junebug, the Soy is strong with you. As far as the social cesspits you mention...nevermind, every time I think you're reasonable you poop on my expectations, so there's no point in trying to explain how wrong you are about a great many things.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061467I'm not so much advocating the use of the X-card as much as knocking down the ideological arguments against it.

Personally I've not seen it do harm, and I can see how it might potentially be useful. Even Forge - who has experienced a problem with the X-card in vivo - concedes that there was likely more going on in the background than he was aware of.

But the direct experiences of Forge, jhkim and myself are irrelevant, the usual suspects here have decided that the very concept is something offensive to them. Along with non-harassment rules at conventions and the like.

The X-cards aren't the real issue as they're so easily avoidable. It's the ideology that makes them a safety net that's the problem.

Quote from: Motorskills;1061467I'm not so much advocating the use of the X-card as much as knocking down the ideological arguments against it.

Personally I've not seen it do harm, and I can see how it might potentially be useful. Even Forge - who has experienced a problem with the X-card in vivo - concedes that there was likely more going on in the background than he was aware of.

But the direct experiences of Forge, jhkim and myself are irrelevant, the usual suspects here have decided that the very concept is something offensive to them. Along with non-harassment rules at conventions and the like.

The X-cards aren't the real issue as they're so easily avoidable. It's the ideology that makes them a safety net that's the problem.