Quote from: Haffrung;815128The visceral, searing hatred so many people these days feel for the companies they buy things from still has the power to shock me. Is there a doctor in the house? What's the source of this protean resentment?

Its far beyond our hobby niche; society seems full of irrational hatred and resentment, and treats sarcasm as normal discourse.

Quote from: Bren;815123It doesn't imply that derivative works are bad. Although pretty much all of the Sherlock Holmes derivative works I've read lie somewhere between just OK and bad. Which is one of the reasons that I don't see a pressing public good in allowing people to make derivative works after only 10 years as Justin Alexander is suggesting and right away as you seem to be suggesting.

And I said discouragaed within legal copyright. Not fucking forever.

As I said earlier, I favor protected status as with current copyright for a fixed length of time such as 20 years - the same protection given to inventors. That is plenty of time to see rewards from a success.

Legal copyright might not theoretically be forever, but it is effectively indefinite in the sense that it has been extended whenever Steamboat Willie gets close to expiring. Note that Doyle's Sherlock Holmes stories are not fully out of copyright - the Casebook (1927) is still under copyright.

It certainly seems to me that you are saying that adapted/derivative works are bad. Every time they are mentioned, you insult the creators. In particular, you claim that allowing material to lapse into the public domain - such as Star Wars or Star Trek - would create a flood of low-quality derivative crap that would be against the public good.

From my perspective, when things lapse into the public domain, it's generally been good. Sure, 95% of everything is crap, but the 5% good stuff is what I look for. Sherlock Holmes and Cthulhu mostly passed into public domain recently, and there has been plenty of decent uses of that.

Quote from: Bren;815123I think some balance between the rights of the creator and the rights of every Tomasina, Dick, and Harry to try to sell their Sherlock Holmes fan fic scholck before the living author has even come close to realizing their vision for the character.

Are you suggesting that the creator should have no rights at all? Because if not, then it is a question of the time, not the principle.

Yes, it is a question of time. You upholding legal copyright, under which the Casebook of Sherlock Holmes is still under copyright, and the song Happy Birthday will remain under copyright until 2030. I consider this to be a travesty.

Quote from: Spinachcat;815125I don't have a problem with life of the creator + 20 or 30 years. The creator should have their entire life to do whatever they want with their creation. I can't argue against that.

Lifetime + 30 years means that material will remain in copyright for a century or more. That is far too long.

To take an example, suppose I'm writing a game set in WWI. I search in the library for some newspapers and magazines from the time period for some atmosphere. It is quite possible that the writing, though, is still within lifetime + 30 years. Thus, if I wanted to use that writing in my game, I'd have to search out the author and heirs for each piece.

Yeah, I personally see a flat 30 years being reasonable.

Because if I haven't leveraged my IP enough in 30 years such that people care that I did another book or endorsed someone making a book based on my IP, enh, screw it.

I mean, frankly, there are VERY few authors who return to a work much later in life in a way that I think is incredibly important to protect. If anything, might be good to encourage them to go do something else.

Star Wars might become public domain, but you'd never be able to reproduce a version where Han shot first without Disney suing you into oblivion.

Quote from: jhkim;815138Lifetime + 30 years means that material will remain in copyright for a century or more. That is far too long.

Perhaps, but I am unsure if I am okay with a Creator watching other people play in their sandbox without consent while still alive. If the Creator wants to join KindleWorlds or other content-sharing option, that should be their choice while alive.

I am really excited about Kindle Worlds because I believe (maybe wrongly) that if Creators are given a way to profit from derivative works and still have some modicum of control, we will see a much more open copyright culture develop.

How about 50 years or Life + 30, but whatever is shorter? Then JK Rowling at 35 would enjoy the HP cash until 85 which easily takes care of her kids and grandkids BUT if she died tomorrow, the estate would have 30 years to profit.

Would that be reasonable for all sides?

Quote from: jhkim;815138As I said earlier, I favor protected status as with current copyright for a fixed length of time such as 20 years - the same protection given to inventors. That is plenty of time to see rewards from a success.

So in your view authors like Sue Grafton (who has been regularly putting out Kinsey Millhone stories since 1982 and does not plan to finish until 2019) would have to spend half their creative time writing a series character while having to differentiate her stories from any number of ersatz derivatives? Do you think that will cause a loss of revenue due to brand erosion for Grafton? Most fiction writers don't make a lot of money. They take a lot of risks and costs early on to create while some how supporting themselves. I think they are entitled to benefit from that for more than 20 years. Don't you think they have earned that right?

You keep bringing up the poor inventors. What does the length of a patent have to do with the length of copyright? And if you want to make that comparison it is a bit disengenuous to ignore the way products use multiple patents, patents grouped into families, patent extensions, and other techniques to extend protection beyond 20 years.

QuoteIt certainly seems to me that you are saying that adapted/derivative works are bad.

You think that way because you appear unable to parse a sentence.

Yes, I think most derivative works are pale imitations of the original. Not all, most. Do you have some evidence that imitators create works of art that are on average equal to or better than the works of the original creators? I would be surprised by that as it would be contrary to my exprience of creative works which leads me to conclude that for every Shakespeare who takes from others to create a work of genius there are thousands of hacks churning out mediocre crap and bad fan fics. I don't mind making the hacks wait 40 years to make money off their derivations. Why should I care? How is it in my interest to make their production easier by making the long running series writing of Sue Grafton, Michael Moorcock, Louise Bujold, Glen Cook and others less lucrative and therefore more difficult for them?

QuoteFrom my perspective, when things lapse into the public domain, it's generally been good.

Good for whom? There have been metric tons of Cthulhu Mythos stories generated ever since H.P. Lovecraft started writing about it. Clark Ashton Smith, Robert E. Howard, Robert Bloch, Frank Belknap Long, Henry Kuttner, and Fritz Leiber all created Mythos stories during Lovecraft's lifetime. Folks like August Derleth, Brian Lumley, and Karl Wagner wrote mythos stuff after Lovecraft's death and before the originals lapsed into the public domain. Now some of Derleth and Lumley is certainly mediocre, but it's not like copyright prevented them from writing stories and expanding the Mythos. What problem did those authors have that needs fixing?

QuoteLifetime + 30 years means that material will remain in copyright for a century or more. That is far too long.

Kind of depends on how long the author lives after writing doesn't it?

I really doubt most authors live for 70 years after publishing their works. But as I said previously, a fixed term with extensions for working authors makes sense to me. I find 20 years total to be too short given the time frame of many authors who write in a series.

QuoteTo take an example, suppose I'm writing a game set in WWI. I search in the library for some newspapers and magazines from the time period for some atmosphere. It is quite possible that the writing, though, is still within lifetime + 30 years. Thus, if I wanted to use that writing in my game, I'd have to search out the author and heirs for each piece.

I don't hink there were many WWI newspaper and magazine writers who were still alive in 1985. But yeah you might find the odd 90 year old, I suppose. And then yeah, you'd actually have to do some extra work. Like find a source article that is already in the public domain, or from a source that allows use with accredidation, or by an author who died before 1985, or maybe even write up your own version of the newspaper article. Are you seriously arguing that having to do one of those things is such a high bar to your creativity that you wouldn't produce the game? Really?

Quote from: Bren;815151So in your view authors like Sue Grafton (who has been regularly putting out Kinsey Millhone stories since 1982 and does not plan to finish until 2019) would have to spend half their creative time writing a series character while having to differentiate her stories from any number of ersatz derivatives?

That seems exactly what trademarks are for.


Here is a story by Spider Robinson related to copyright (interestingly licensed under "Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 Unported License", so I could actually find it on the internet).

Quote from: Spinachcat;815148Perhaps, but I am unsure if I am okay with a Creator watching other people play in their sandbox without consent while still alive.

I agree. And I think there are some few creators who might think twice about publishing if they knew that would occur. And for authors who are actively continuing to write and publish derivatives may erode the brand causing a loss of income. A good compromise might be to allow living authors to renew. It might even be good to include some diligence requiring them to be actively keeping those works in print or even writing new works using that property. That would mitigate cases where the copyright is only being used to block publication or creation.

QuoteHow about 50 years or Life + 30, but whatever is shorter? Then JK Rowling at 35 would enjoy the HP cash until 85 which easily takes care of her kids and grandkids BUT if she died tomorrow, the estate would have 30 years to profit.

Would that be reasonable for all sides?

Definitely better than 10 years or 20 years total fixed length or the current situation. The bigger problem may be how to fix the term for copyright controlled by corporations and collectives. That's one reason that a fixed term allowing for renewals if diligence obligations are being met (existing books in print and/or new works published that are based on the existing copyright material in the case of series).

Also given the number of authors who killed themselves or lived a very short life for other reasons setting the term based on the length of life of the author kind of double penalizes their heirs. Off the top of my head, Poe, Howard, Lovecraft, Hemingway, and H. Beam Piper all met untimely demises.

You know, another potential angle is that maybe once ip is free, you can't develop it into new ip.

So, yeah, now you have the right to make Mickey Mouse stuff, but any cool ideas you get can be used by everyone else.

This could protect authors -- write a successful book, release the copyright, and then no fanfic writers can try to attack you for 'stealing their ideas.'

Quote from: Necrozius;814634While I can understand shutting down the 5e character generator (IF it included content beyond what is in the free Basic rules), I don't see how they could affect any Pathfinder material. That doesn't seem relevant, really.

EDIT: I'm surprised that they didn't just force him to remove any non-Basic character material and leave it at that. Any promotional tools are great free publicity.

EDIT 2: I'm not white-knighting a mega corporation or anything, but IF this site freely gave people material found only in the Player's Handbook... well theft is theft, whether the product comes from a cool, popular indie developer or a Big RPG.

The PF stuff was shut down because he refused to do it under the OGL.

Quote from: Spinachcat;815148Perhaps, but I am unsure if I am okay with a Creator watching other people play in their sandbox without consent while still alive.

There's two things wrong with that idea.

First, many creations are owned by companies so their creators get to watch that shit happen anyway. Those that can afford to keep their copyright instead of selling it don't deserve to keep it out of the public domain longer just because they lived longer.

Second, they didn't come up with their creation in a fucking vacuum because all art/literature/etc. is an innovation built on the things that came before them. Once in a while there is a change that appears to be completely new, but it is generally a slightly different take on something that exists or several people were working on the same thing at the same time and one just happened to get their copyright/patent/whatever filed first.

The whole point of copyright is so creators can get a limited duration for making money and then society gets to benefit by putting it into the public domain. 120 years is technically limited but clearly the opposite of what the intent was for copyright to encourage works to enter the public domain by allowing people to make money on them first.

Quote from: snooggums;815158There's two things wrong with that idea.

First, many creations are owned by companies so their creators get to watch that...

Second, they didn't come up with their creation in a fucking vacuum because all art/literature/etc. is an innovation built on the things that came before them...

The whole point of copyright is so creators can get a limited duration for making money and then society gets to benefit by putting it into the public domain...

Actually, I did come up with my creations in a vacuum. In your lifetime, and in five hundred generations of your descendants, you and your kin wouldn't remotely be able to guess what I have already created, nor what I'm capable of creating.

I'm not quite sure where society should benefit at the expense of my family and descendents when it comes to my inventions.

What would you call fair?

Quote from: GameDaddy;815160Actually, I did come up with my creations in a vacuum. In your lifetime, and in five hundred generations of your descendants, you and your kin wouldn't remotely be able to guess what I have already created, nor what I'm capable of creating.

Bullshit.

Quote from: GameDaddy;815160I'm not quite sure where society should benefit at the expense of my family and descendents when it comes to my inventions.

If you hadn't done it, someone else would have.

Quote from: GameDaddy;815160What would you call fair?

Copyright: 20 years + the option for a 20 year extension at the most, roughly a generation or two.

Quote from: GameDaddy;815160Actually, I did come up with my creations in a vacuum. In your lifetime, and in five hundred generations of your descendants, you and your kin wouldn't remotely be able to guess what I have already created, nor what I'm capable of creating.

I'm not quite sure where society should benefit at the expense of my family and descendents when it comes to my inventions.

What would you call fair?

Keep it secret for five hundred generations; just nod and wink mysteriously every generation or so, thus tormenting the uncreative with what they can never know. That seems fair.

Quote from: rawma;815163

Quote from: GameDaddy;815160Actually, I did come up with my creations in a vacuum. In your lifetime, and in five hundred generations of your descendants, you and your kin wouldn't remotely be able to guess what I have already created, nor what I'm capable of creating.

I'm not quite sure where society should benefit at the expense of my family and descendents when it comes to my inventions.

What would you call fair?

Keep it secret for five hundred generations; just nod and wink mysteriously every generation or so, thus tormenting the uncreative with what they can never know. That seems fair.

These two posts belong together. One completes the other. Lke ham and eggs, salt and pepper, shit and shinola.