Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 02, 2022, 06:45:37 AM
Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.

Dragonlance suffers primarily from being more of a novel series than an actual campaign world. The initial run of a dozen modules was literally "play out the events of the novels complete with the novel protagonists as pre-gens."

The entire continent on which the first stories take place has less land mass than India and is maybe a quarter the size of Europe. It's literally just big enough to fit the events of the novel trilogy into it and, by the time the War of the Lance is over, there's almost no further conflicts left to solve (there's Raistlin's attempt to become a god, but that was mostly a sidequest that filled in some history and ended with Caramon and Raistlin basically undoing a bad future such that it never happened).

Which is why they've had to keep trying to reinvent it, but it basically comes down to the same problem all the projects ancillary to Lord of the Rings are less than stellar (even leaving aside the descent into woke)... because they've already hit the high water mark with the best set of heroes and villains the setting was ever going to have in that first trilogy and the initial game modules based on them.

As a result it's just not a great world for adventuring in unless you're replaying the War of the Lance arc.

Hence why I'm critical of the entire concept of "lore." I think it's sufficient to just have various races, classes, and factions that you can use to build plots (it's also nice to have pre-built adventures too, arguably even more important to have those). I don't need millennia of irrelevant bloated lore that just amounts of reciting factoids without adding anything substantial to the actual play experience. Some people equate sheer volume of factoids to quality, I can't stand being around those people, and they're everywhere it seems nowadays. Most companies can't even keep their own lore consistent because there's just too much to keep track of and writer turnover means that tastes and priorities change.

The only franchise I've seen avoid this problem is Transformers because it constantly reboots itself and apparently has a canonical multiverse. I find this the best way to handle IPs because it lets you respect long-time fans by telling them that their favorite iteration of the franchise is still canon in the multiverse, while allowing the writers freedom to do new things unconstrained by previous canon by just inventing a new universe to work with. Tellingly, Disney has switched to this model for its MCU.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 03, 2022, 11:51:40 PM
Dragonlance suffers primarily from being more of a novel series than an actual campaign world. The initial run of a dozen modules was literally "play out the events of the novels complete with the novel protagonists as pre-gens."

  Not quite; the original plan seems to have been that the novels were more novelizations of the game events, to the point that DL5 Dragons of Mystery, the first 'sourcebook', included guidelines for 'playing the novels' as opposed to the original modules. But the novels got ahead of the modules, the tail wound up wagging the dog, and the latter half of the series starts diverging in numerous ways. There are major enemies and locations that were introduced for the modules but never even hinted at in the novels, such as the King of the Deep and the Glitterpalace.

  That said, you're correct on the core issue--Dragonlance was built as the backdrop for a single story, with a set group of heroes and villains.

Quote
The entire continent on which the first stories take place has less land mass than India and is maybe a quarter the size of Europe. It's literally just big enough to fit the events of the novel trilogy into it and, by the time the War of the Lance is over, there's almost no further conflicts left to solve (there's Raistlin's attempt to become a god, but that was mostly a sidequest that filled in some history and ended with Caramon and Raistlin basically undoing a bad future such that it never happened).

  It is telling that when the Fifth Age team made one of the first attempts to really turn Ansalon into a gameable setting, they tripled the map scale.

I'm not seeing anything particularly special about this WotC effort.  They try to ruin everything they touch.  Why should DL and SJ be any different?  It's more like "WotC Finally Got Around to Trying to Ruin Dragonlance, Spelljammer".  I guess the DL and SJ fans can take it as a backhanded compliment of some relevance after all.  What's next, a woke Boot Hill and Star Frontiers? 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 04, 2022, 01:13:29 PM
I'm not seeing anything particularly special about this WotC effort.  They try to ruin everything they touch.  Why should DL and SJ be any different?  It's more like "WotC Finally Got Around to Trying to Ruin Dragonlance, Spelljammer".  I guess the DL and SJ fans can take it as a backhanded compliment of some relevance after all.  What's next, a woke Boot Hill and Star Frontiers? 

WotC owns a bunch of old TSR IPs that they're not doing anything with, to the point that they lost the Alternity trademark to a random indie guy who made a retroclone of it. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Dark•Matter, Gamma World, the various settings for Amazing Engine, etc. I don't think they'll ever revisit those for the simple reason that D&D is just more profitable. In the unlikely event they did, then yes they'd insert obnoxious wokeness. Pity.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 04, 2022, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 04, 2022, 01:13:29 PM
I'm not seeing anything particularly special about this WotC effort.  They try to ruin everything they touch.  Why should DL and SJ be any different?  It's more like "WotC Finally Got Around to Trying to Ruin Dragonlance, Spelljammer".  I guess the DL and SJ fans can take it as a backhanded compliment of some relevance after all.  What's next, a woke Boot Hill and Star Frontiers? 

WotC owns a bunch of old TSR IPs that they're not doing anything with, to the point that they lost the Alternity trademark to a random indie guy who made a retroclone of it. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Dark•Matter, Gamma World, the various settings for Amazing Engine, etc. I don't think they'll ever revisit those for the simple reason that D&D is just more profitable. In the unlikely event they did, then yes they'd insert obnoxious wokeness. Pity.

   What was the clone of Alternity?  I had the core books and it interested me a whole lot reading them, but I have never played.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
It is telling that when the Fifth Age team made one of the first attempts to really turn Ansalon into a gameable setting, they tripled the map scale.

Fifth Age felt kind of like a Final Fantasy iteration - you start out in an area that's relatively safe, then go exploring into areas with more dangerous enemies, track down a dragonlance, take out one of the major dragons and then finally culminate defeating Malystryx. By that time though the novels were so popular they couldn't help but continuously make references to Palin, Goldmoon and others. So you're still constantly in the shadows of the main characters.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 02:49:33 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 04, 2022, 01:56:12 PM

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 04, 2022, 01:13:29 PM
I'm not seeing anything particularly special about this WotC effort.  They try to ruin everything they touch.  Why should DL and SJ be any different?  It's more like "WotC Finally Got Around to Trying to Ruin Dragonlance, Spelljammer".  I guess the DL and SJ fans can take it as a backhanded compliment of some relevance after all.  What's next, a woke Boot Hill and Star Frontiers? 

WotC owns a bunch of old TSR IPs that they're not doing anything with, to the point that they lost the Alternity trademark to a random indie guy who made a retroclone of it. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Dark•Matter, Gamma World, the various settings for Amazing Engine, etc. I don't think they'll ever revisit those for the simple reason that D&D is just more profitable. In the unlikely event they did, then yes they'd insert obnoxious wokeness. Pity.

   What was the clone of Alternity?  I had the core books and it interested me a whole lot reading them, but I have never played.

Much of the Alternity Star*Drive setting came back in D20 Modern's sci-fi book.

Quote from: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 02:49:33 PM

   What was the clone of Alternity?  I had the core books and it interested me a whole lot reading them, but I have never played.

It wasn't really a clone, more a second edition. One of the guys who worked on it (Richard Baker) was also a designer for the original Alternity.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 02, 2022, 10:51:55 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 02, 2022, 07:21:43 PM

Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.

Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base.  He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling.  It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.

There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.

um. sorry no. I was not at any point claiming Pundit is using outrage markeing.

I am saying he falls for WOTCs outrage marketing and gives them exactly what they want. Free Advertising.

Technically, Pundit is engaging in outrage marketing as well. He fishes for stupid stuff wokesters say, draws attention to it, often extrapolates upon it and does analysis, makes doomsday predictions, etc. Then shills his products at the end, reminding people not to buy stuff from people who hate them. That's outrage marketing.

Granted, he's just feeding off a cycle that he didn't start, and is just pointing out the nonsense other people got going, exposing it for what it is, and sometimes engaging in hyperbole. So he's not as guilty as them, to the extent "guilt" might be deduced out of this, and he certainly didn't "start it". But that's still technically outrage marketing, cuz it engages with people's sentiments about the whole deal, and helps draw view to his content, cuz outrage marketing can work both ways.

I just don't care when Pundit does it, cuz people in the other side are horrible and he's exposing them, which is a public service in a way. And he stands by his products without making any grandiose claims about them, other than they're "authentic" and well researched, which he backs up with videos going through them, showing people what's actually in the material (which I think speaks for itself), rather than selling vaporware by implying that they bring some sort of great benefit for humanity or "marginalized communities" like people on the other side like to claim about their crap. Which makes them grifters.

But there's nothing wrong with shilling products you actually did create (unlike those Kickstarter that never ship from the opposition), while providing a public service to people that they can take or leave.

Correct. Thank you.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
  That said, you're correct on the core issue--Dragonlance was built as the backdrop for a single story, with a set group of heroes and villains.

There are about 200 Dragonlance novels that say you are wrong about that.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 02, 2022, 10:51:55 PM

Quote from: Omega on May 02, 2022, 07:21:43 PM

Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.

Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base.  He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling.  It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.

There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.

um. sorry no. I was not at any point claiming Pundit is using outrage markeing.

I am saying he falls for WOTCs outrage marketing and gives them exactly what they want. Free Advertising.

Technically, Pundit is engaging in outrage marketing as well. He fishes for stupid stuff wokesters say, draws attention to it, often extrapolates upon it and does analysis, makes doomsday predictions, etc. Then shills his products at the end, reminding people not to buy stuff from people who hate them. That's outrage marketing.

Granted, he's just feeding off a cycle that he didn't start, and is just pointing out the nonsense other people got going, exposing it for what it is, and sometimes engaging in hyperbole. So he's not as guilty as them, to the extent "guilt" might be deduced out of this, and he certainly didn't "start it". But that's still technically outrage marketing, cuz it engages with people's sentiments about the whole deal, and helps draw view to his content, cuz outrage marketing can work both ways.

Oh I agree hes using this also to shill. But hes not using other peoples outrage to market his products. He's just reacting to WOTCs latest ploy. Then shilling his wares. He gives them free advertising then uses that to advertise his stuff. More like riding on the coattails or parasiting off the parasites.

Quote from: Shasarak on May 04, 2022, 05:17:56 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
  That said, you're correct on the core issue--Dragonlance was built as the backdrop for a single story, with a set group of heroes and villains.

There are about 200 Dragonlance novels that say you are wrong about that.

  And most of them fill in background or side-stories from the original War of the Lance story or the setting elements designed for it. I know; I've read about half of them.

  More seriously, I don't disagree that there's been work done stretching Krynn beyond the original parameters--I remain one of the diehards of the original Fifth Age setting. But you can definitely see the seams if you try to do anything with the setting beyond the War of the Lance before things like that, Taladas, and Sovereign Press expanded the options.

Quote from: Chris24601 on May 03, 2022, 11:51:40 PM
Dragonlance suffers primarily from being more of a novel series than an actual campaign world. The initial run of a dozen modules was literally "play out the events of the novels complete with the novel protagonists as pre-gens."

The entire continent on which the first stories take place has less land mass than India and is maybe a quarter the size of Europe. It's literally just big enough to fit the events of the novel trilogy into it and, by the time the War of the Lance is over, there's almost no further conflicts left to solve (there's Raistlin's attempt to become a god, but that was mostly a sidequest that filled in some history and ended with Caramon and Raistlin basically undoing a bad future such that it never happened).

Which is why they've had to keep trying to reinvent it, but it basically comes down to the same problem all the projects ancillary to Lord of the Rings are less than stellar (even leaving aside the descent into woke)... because they've already hit the high water mark with the best set of heroes and villains the setting was ever going to have in that first trilogy and the initial game modules based on them.

As a result it's just not a great world for adventuring in unless you're replaying the War of the Lance arc.

Yup, agreed. I can't argue with that. Even though I loved running DL back in the 2e days.

And in regards to the Lord of the Rings. I love it, use it for inspiration.....but I don't want to play in the setting.

Quote from: migo on May 04, 2022, 03:43:16 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 02:49:33 PM

   What was the clone of Alternity?  I had the core books and it interested me a whole lot reading them, but I have never played.

It wasn't really a clone, more a second edition. One of the guys who worked on it (Richard Baker) was also a designer for the original Alternity.

  name of the game?