Quote from: RPGPundit on May 02, 2022, 05:21:55 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 02:05:28 PM
Mistwell particularly references Candlekeep Mysteries, where Pundit said that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official and that every dungeon in that and all later books were wheelchair accessible. That's not a slight exaggeration - that's completely at odds with what is in the published book, which has no wheelchairs at all and none of the adventures are accessible. One adventure has ramps like the Egyptian pyramids it is modeled on.

I agree that there is some woke influence, but most of it seems very cosmetic - like a gay NPC couple where if ones change a handful of words to switch genders and it would be gone.

Again, if the Combat Wheelchair isn't in Candlekeep it wasn't me who was lying, it was the D&D staff and countless leftist gaming-media sites which all suggested that the wheelchair was now official.

In general, I do think that WotC engages in exaggeration and outrage marketing of its own. However, I see absolutely nothing to back up this specific claim - that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair is official and is in Candlekeep Mysteries. You claim that there are "countless" such claims. If you've got a link or screenshots of any of them, then show it.

Otherwise, no, I don't believe you. When I asked you before, you pointed to the Candlekeep book itself, which has nothing of the sort.

Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.

Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base.  He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling.  It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.

There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.

um. sorry no. I was not at any point claiming Pundit is using outrage markeing.

I am saying he falls for WOTCs outrage marketing and gives them exactly what they want. Free Advertising.

Quote from: RPGPundit on May 02, 2022, 05:21:55 PM
Again, if the Combat Wheelchair isn't in Candlekeep it wasn't me who was lying, it was the D&D staff and countless leftist gaming-media sites which all suggested that the wheelchair was now official.

Thats what I've been saying. You were baited like everyone else. They think this is some sort of road to riches because its combined with the other marketing religions that extoll that fans are bad and getting rid of them with the damn 5 year plan is somehow good for business. Im surpeised they didnt roll out 6e long ago. But for once Hasbro may have reigned them in for a time. But looks like WOTC is champing at the bit to get on with failing 5e because it did well and thats blasphemy for WOTC.

At this point Combat Wheelchairs are like Warlords shouting hands back on in 4e, too good to bother with "facts"

Quote from: Omega on May 02, 2022, 07:21:43 PM

Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.

Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base.  He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling.  It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.

There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.

um. sorry no. I was not at any point claiming Pundit is using outrage markeing.

I am saying he falls for WOTCs outrage marketing and gives them exactly what they want. Free Advertising.

Technically, Pundit is engaging in outrage marketing as well. He fishes for stupid stuff wokesters say, draws attention to it, often extrapolates upon it and does analysis, makes doomsday predictions, etc. Then shills his products at the end, reminding people not to buy stuff from people who hate them. That's outrage marketing.

Granted, he's just feeding off a cycle that he didn't start, and is just pointing out the nonsense other people got going, exposing it for what it is, and sometimes engaging in hyperbole. So he's not as guilty as them, to the extent "guilt" might be deduced out of this, and he certainly didn't "start it". But that's still technically outrage marketing, cuz it engages with people's sentiments about the whole deal, and helps draw view to his content, cuz outrage marketing can work both ways.

I just don't care when Pundit does it, cuz people in the other side are horrible and he's exposing them, which is a public service in a way. And he stands by his products without making any grandiose claims about them, other than they're "authentic" and well researched, which he backs up with videos going through them, showing people what's actually in the material (which I think speaks for itself), rather than selling vaporware by implying that they bring some sort of great benefit for humanity or "marginalized communities" like people on the other side like to claim about their crap. Which makes them grifters.

But there's nothing wrong with shilling products you actually did create (unlike those Kickstarter that never ship from the opposition), while providing a public service to people that they can take or leave.

Is it "shilling" when it's your own product?
I thought that was called "marketing."

Quote from: Effete on May 03, 2022, 03:11:05 AM
Is it "shilling" when it's your own product?
I thought that was called "marketing."

When I do it it's marketing and when you do it it's "shilling."

Quote from: David Johansen on May 03, 2022, 02:50:49 PM

Quote from: Effete on May 03, 2022, 03:11:05 AM
Is it "shilling" when it's your own product?
I thought that was called "marketing."

When I do it it's marketing and when you do it it's "shilling."

Ah, yes! Modern Business studies from our acclaimed universities. Soon to be debt free.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 02, 2022, 06:45:37 AM
Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.

I feel like this is a pretty common thing. I don't know how anyone runs campaigns in Forgotten Realms, for example, because there's no coherence to the setting. There's no real consistency or theme, you just take something from the grab-bag of villains, motivations and plotlines and play mad-libs.

Something like Ravenloft isn't really internally consistent, but at the very least it has a thematic/mood established that can serve as the thread to tie together the game.

Quote from: Zelen on May 03, 2022, 05:55:57 PM

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 02, 2022, 06:45:37 AM
Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.

I feel like this is a pretty common thing. I don't know how anyone runs campaigns in Forgotten Realms, for example, because there's no coherence to the setting. There's no real consistency or theme, you just take something from the grab-bag of villains, motivations and plotlines and play mad-libs.

Something like Ravenloft isn't really internally consistent, but at the very least it has a thematic/mood established that can serve as the thread to tie together the game.

Ravenloft's mood hasn't been consistent either. Even back with the Domains of Dread, everything changed when you crossed the domain border, including the mood. While everything was some form of horror, that's a broad brush (much like saying "all fantasy").

FR probably isn't so bad if you know enough about the lore and are willing to commit to a particular location and the types of factions and occurrences that are likely to happen there, and build a campaign around it. Problem is that the setting is so huge and convoluted, and many of the details about any given place so unapproachable unless you've actually read a bunch of novels and/or played video games featuring them with enough depth to really know WTF they're really about, that it's hard to know where to start or why you shouldn't just make up your own setting on the fly instead, based on whatever it is the group feels like playing that day. And when you add in all the arbitrary changes the setting has gone through from edition to edition it just makes it worse.

Dragonlance at least had its own feel, though, I suppose it runs into similar problems as to what to actually do with it. But Ravenloft gives you a more solid starting point. Even if every domain has its own feel and tone, at least you know that "horror" is the overarching theme. You can always run into some Vistani as a common constant and a source of news while traveling from place to place. And if all else fails you can always throw some of the common horror creatures found in any given domain at the group, or go with classic horror creatures like zombies, vampires, werewolves and such. Maybe throw in a Frankenstein monster type of thing or some other type of Golem if you have the Guide to the Created, etc.

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 03, 2022, 06:50:56 PM
FR probably isn't so bad if you know enough about the lore and are willing to commit to a particular location and the types of factions and occurrences that are likely to happen there, and build a campaign around it. Problem is that the setting is so huge and convoluted, and many of the details about any given place so unapproachable unless you've actually read a bunch of novels and/or played video games featuring them with enough depth to really know WTF they're really about, that it's hard to know where to start or why you shouldn't just make up your own setting on the fly instead, based on whatever it is the group feels like playing that day. And when you add in all the arbitrary changes the setting has gone through from edition to edition it just makes it worse.

Dragonlance at least had its own feel, though, I suppose it runs into similar problems as to what to actually do with it. But Ravenloft gives you a more solid starting point. Even if every domain has its own feel and tone, at least you know that "horror" is the overarching theme. You can always run into some Vistani as a common constant and a source of news while traveling from place to place. And if all else fails you can always throw some of the common horror creatures found in any given domain at the group, or go with classic horror creatures like zombies, vampires, werewolves and such. Maybe throw in a Frankenstein monster type of thing or some other type of Golem if you have the Guide to the Created, etc.

Greeting!

*Laughing* You know, my friend, once upon a time, there was only the Grey Box Forgotten Realms, and a half dozen FR-series campaign supplements. The Forgotten Realms *at that point*--was an awesome, mysterious, bad-ass campaign setting literally *bursting* with all kinds of campaign potential and wonderful inspiration!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on May 03, 2022, 07:08:45 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 03, 2022, 06:50:56 PM
FR probably isn't so bad if you know enough about the lore and are willing to commit to a particular location and the types of factions and occurrences that are likely to happen there, and build a campaign around it. Problem is that the setting is so huge and convoluted, and many of the details about any given place so unapproachable unless you've actually read a bunch of novels and/or played video games featuring them with enough depth to really know WTF they're really about, that it's hard to know where to start or why you shouldn't just make up your own setting on the fly instead, based on whatever it is the group feels like playing that day. And when you add in all the arbitrary changes the setting has gone through from edition to edition it just makes it worse.

Dragonlance at least had its own feel, though, I suppose it runs into similar problems as to what to actually do with it. But Ravenloft gives you a more solid starting point. Even if every domain has its own feel and tone, at least you know that "horror" is the overarching theme. You can always run into some Vistani as a common constant and a source of news while traveling from place to place. And if all else fails you can always throw some of the common horror creatures found in any given domain at the group, or go with classic horror creatures like zombies, vampires, werewolves and such. Maybe throw in a Frankenstein monster type of thing or some other type of Golem if you have the Guide to the Created, etc.

Greeting!

*Laughing* You know, my friend, once upon a time, there was only the Grey Box Forgotten Realms, and a half dozen FR-series campaign supplements. The Forgotten Realms *at that point*--was an awesome, mysterious, bad-ass campaign setting literally *bursting* with all kinds of campaign potential and wonderful inspiration!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My favorite version of the Forgotten Realms was before the gray box came out. To be more precise, anything before Dragon #110, where Elminister was revealed as a 26th level magic-user, instead of just a sage. The articles in Dragon hinted at a stark world, where isolated patches of civilization stood against the dark tide of savagery and the innumerable monsters of the wilderness. Where heroes often came to dark ends, and mysteries abounded, from lost civilizations, to magic, and strange personal secrets.

My favorite version of the Realms wouldn't have a map except for the starting town, and wouldn't detail endless personages and places. Instead, it would be a sandbox, with tools like random tables and relationship maps for expanding the world. It would have tips for maintaining themes, and for developing recurring elements.

The gray box explained too much. It mapped most of the continent, made a lot of the supposedly alien civilizations thin pastiches, and peppered the land with insanely powerful mages who meddled in everything. And then they expanded on that, until every last corner of the continent and all major figures were known. That stripped away the darkness and mystery and the strong themes of struggling against the wilderness and what inhabits the tangled lands beyond a day's walk, and replaced it with a cosmopolitan kitchen sink with world-rearranging events seemingly happening every other minute.

The gray box isn't bad, but I'd prefer it disassembled. Seeds and ideas and hooks and examples, that can be assembled any which way by a DM, or ignored or replaced, making each a unique creation and preventing the contagion of pre-existing player knowledge.

Quote from: Pat on May 03, 2022, 08:01:36 PM

Quote from: SHARK on May 03, 2022, 07:08:45 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 03, 2022, 06:50:56 PM
FR probably isn't so bad if you know enough about the lore and are willing to commit to a particular location and the types of factions and occurrences that are likely to happen there, and build a campaign around it. Problem is that the setting is so huge and convoluted, and many of the details about any given place so unapproachable unless you've actually read a bunch of novels and/or played video games featuring them with enough depth to really know WTF they're really about, that it's hard to know where to start or why you shouldn't just make up your own setting on the fly instead, based on whatever it is the group feels like playing that day. And when you add in all the arbitrary changes the setting has gone through from edition to edition it just makes it worse.

Dragonlance at least had its own feel, though, I suppose it runs into similar problems as to what to actually do with it. But Ravenloft gives you a more solid starting point. Even if every domain has its own feel and tone, at least you know that "horror" is the overarching theme. You can always run into some Vistani as a common constant and a source of news while traveling from place to place. And if all else fails you can always throw some of the common horror creatures found in any given domain at the group, or go with classic horror creatures like zombies, vampires, werewolves and such. Maybe throw in a Frankenstein monster type of thing or some other type of Golem if you have the Guide to the Created, etc.

Greeting!

*Laughing* You know, my friend, once upon a time, there was only the Grey Box Forgotten Realms, and a half dozen FR-series campaign supplements. The Forgotten Realms *at that point*--was an awesome, mysterious, bad-ass campaign setting literally *bursting* with all kinds of campaign potential and wonderful inspiration!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

My favorite version of the Forgotten Realms was before the gray box came out. To be more precise, anything before Dragon #110, where Elminister was revealed as a 26th level magic-user, instead of just a sage. The articles in Dragon hinted at a stark world, where isolated patches of civilization stood against the dark tide of savagery and the innumerable monsters of the wilderness. Where heroes often came to dark ends, and mysteries abounded, from lost civilizations, to magic, and strange personal secrets.

My favorite version of the Realms wouldn't have a map except for the starting town, and wouldn't detail endless personages and places. Instead, it would be a sandbox, with tools like random tables and relationship maps for expanding the world. It would have tips for maintaining themes, and for developing recurring elements.

The gray box explained too much. It mapped most of the continent, made a lot of the supposedly alien civilizations thin pastiches, and peppered the land with insanely powerful mages who meddled in everything. And then they expanded on that, until every last corner of the continent and all major figures were known. That stripped away the darkness and mystery and the strong themes of struggling against the wilderness and what inhabits the tangled lands beyond a day's walk, and replaced it with a cosmopolitan kitchen sink with world-rearranging events seemingly happening every other minute.

The gray box isn't bad, but I'd prefer it disassembled. Seeds and ideas and hooks and examples, that can be assembled any which way by a DM, or ignored or replaced, making each a unique creation and preventing the contagion of pre-existing player knowledge.

I got into the hobby and started getting my own books around the time that 2e came out (same year or year after IIRC), so I missed the Gray Box or stripped down version train. But that concept of a land with sparse patches of civilization up against a savage wilderness sounds kinda interesting and more like I would prefer. By the time I stumbled into FR they were already well on their way to covering every patch of land with fifty tons of details that didn't really mean much to me, and without an apparent central location I just didn't know what to do with that much information. I just found it overwhelming and all over the place.

Plus the fact that the book I got was Forgotten Realms Adventures probably didn't help, since it was more like an expansion to bring FR into 2e, rather than something that truly laid out what the setting was really about. I think I may have gotten the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2nd edition at some point, but I was more into other stuff by that point (even trying other games sometimes) or making up my own. That one may have gone to the termites that ate half my books over a decade ago since I haven't seen it in ages, but I'm pretty sure I got it.

It wasn't till I read some of the novels (mostly Dark Elf Trilogy and Icewind Dale) and played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights that I started to get a real feel for the Realms. And even then, it was hard for me to pinpoint where I'd start a campaign if I wanted to play in the place.

EDIT/PS: Looking back on it, I think that by the time I finally got the FR 2e box was close to the time when a friend of mine got obsessed with Ravenloft and got a bunch of the books, so that's where we ended up playing usually when we played D&D around that time. With splashed of Planescape and elements of Spelljammer in between (though, the SJ stuff came earlier I think).

Quote from: VisionStorm on May 03, 2022, 09:20:02 PM

I got into the hobby and started getting my own books around the time that 2e came out (same year or year after IIRC), so I missed the Gray Box or stripped down version train. But that concept of a land with sparse patches of civilization up against a savage wilderness sounds kinda interesting and more like I would prefer. By the time I stumbled into FR they were already well on their way to covering every patch of land with fifty tons of details that didn't really mean much to me, and without an apparent central location I just didn't know what to do with that much information. I just found it overwhelming and all over the place.

Some of the better examples were the ecologies of the sea lion and gulguthra, the article on the incantatrix, the first couple pages from the mages, and the article on the seven swords. Or that adventure that got reprinted in the gray box, with the abandoned school of magic, the lich, and the red herring conqueror. They all told little stories, which could easily be woven into the background of a campaign, giving it color and a little bit of quirkiness. There was a sense of loss, a passage of time, as magic items went from hand to hand, or lords, heroes, or rogues came to bad ends. The bits were all stand-alone, hinting at a few common things like Myth Drannor or Waterdeep, but without the connective tissue that tied the later Realms into a tight web that was harder to work around, and relying more on suggestion and hints than concrete details.