WoTC Trying Hard to Ruin Dragonlance, Spelljammer

Pat · April 28, 2022, 11:56:55 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 28, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 11:01:02 AM
Wrong. Spelljammer is one of the three greatest D&D settings ever created (the other two being Dark Sun and Planescape). And as lame as I'm sure that WotC's changes to it will turn out to be, I doubt that they'll end up killing it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the most popular settings for D&D's current audience (grognards who already don't give their money to WotC will probably reject it, though, but WotC has consistently shown they don't care about us).

Meanwhile, as I've noted repeatedly, Dragonlance has a strain in it--anti-establishment, sympathetic to the outcast and 'special snowflakes' as well as intellectuals who are 'beyond good and evil', and religiously relativist and enshrining tolerance and diversity as Supreme Goods--that would be perfect for WotC's approach to the game if they leaned into it.

Is there any fantasy setting that doesn't meet those criteria? Because if you're interpreting it that way, then you could describe the whole D&D experience that way. Seems strange to pin it on Dragonlance in particular.

oggsmash · April 28, 2022, 11:59:59 AM

Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 28, 2022, 11:12:09 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 28, 2022, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 28, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.

Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.

Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.

No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".

Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.

And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.

You mean like Elon Musk?

Yep. If he ends up buying Twitter, he can do as he damn well pleases with it. Whether you, I, or anyone else likes or dislikes it is beside the point. That's how this shit works.

Bullshit. The federal government will come down on him like a hammer to "create a safe online environment" and be cheered by half the population to do so. Not to mention the lawfare incoming from all sorts of NGO operations with agendas.
They can try, but the moment they do it opens the doors to ask exactly why Jeff Bezos owns the WaPo.

I like your optimism that suddenly rules are going to be passed out equally to everyone. I hope you are correct.

VisionStorm · April 28, 2022, 12:03:42 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 28, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 11:01:02 AM
Wrong. Spelljammer is one of the three greatest D&D settings ever created (the other two being Dark Sun and Planescape). And as lame as I'm sure that WotC's changes to it will turn out to be, I doubt that they'll end up killing it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the most popular settings for D&D's current audience (grognards who already don't give their money to WotC will probably reject it, though, but WotC has consistently shown they don't care about us).

Meanwhile, as I've noted repeatedly, Dragonlance has a strain in it--anti-establishment, sympathetic to the outcast and 'special snowflakes' as well as intellectuals who are 'beyond good and evil', and religiously relativist and enshrining tolerance and diversity as Supreme Goods--that would be perfect for WotC's approach to the game if they leaned into it.

Dragonlance has become tainted among the woke, who have declared it a bigoted and pro-slavery creation of Mormons, who they are allowed to openly disparage and hate, cuz Christianity plus magic underpants.

Not that I'm a fan of these religions, but hating on them is a trend among the woke.

VisionStorm · April 28, 2022, 12:05:08 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 28, 2022, 11:12:09 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 28, 2022, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 28, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.

Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.

Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.

No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".

Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.

And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.

You mean like Elon Musk?

Yep. If he ends up buying Twitter, he can do as he damn well pleases with it. Whether you, I, or anyone else likes or dislikes it is beside the point. That's how this shit works.

Bullshit. The federal government will come down on him like a hammer to "create a safe online environment" and be cheered by half the population to do so. Not to mention the lawfare incoming from all sorts of NGO operations with agendas.
They can try, but the moment they do it opens the doors to ask exactly why Jeff Bezos owns the WaPo.

I like your optimism that suddenly rules are going to be passed out equally to everyone. I hope you are correct.

Unfortunately I lean more to this possiblity given what recent history has taught us.

Armchair Gamer · April 28, 2022, 12:09:07 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 12:03:42 PM
Dragonlance has become tainted among the woke, who have declared it a bigoted and pro-slavery creation of Mormons, who they are allowed to openly disparage and hate, cuz Christianity plus magic underpants.

Not that I'm a fan of these religions, but hating on them is a trend among the woke.

I can believe that, too. There are at least two different strands in Dragonlance--Hickman's more traditional LDS-based Tolkien homage, and a more cynical, "Neutrality is Good, Evil is iffy but cool, Good is stuck-up and evil," pro-mage, pro-kender, anti-elven, anti-Knightly and anti-clerical strain that I suspect comes more from Weis, as well as contributions from other authors and other iterations of the setting.

BoxCrayonTales · April 28, 2022, 12:48:46 PM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 28, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 11:01:02 AM
Wrong. Spelljammer is one of the three greatest D&D settings ever created (the other two being Dark Sun and Planescape). And as lame as I'm sure that WotC's changes to it will turn out to be, I doubt that they'll end up killing it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the most popular settings for D&D's current audience (grognards who already don't give their money to WotC will probably reject it, though, but WotC has consistently shown they don't care about us).

Meanwhile, as I've noted repeatedly, Dragonlance has a strain in it--anti-establishment, sympathetic to the outcast and 'special snowflakes' as well as intellectuals who are 'beyond good and evil', and religiously relativist and enshrining tolerance and diversity as Supreme Goods--that would be perfect for WotC's approach to the game if they leaned into it.

Those are conservative values now

ThatChrisGuy · April 28, 2022, 03:25:07 PM

Ruining a setting is a corporate tradition going back to the TSR days. Does no one remember 2nd Edition pooping on Forgotten Realms? Or Greyhawk Wars? Or whatever the hell Dark Sun became pre-3rd Edition?

Jaeger · April 28, 2022, 05:11:19 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 27, 2022, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.

Agreed. I'm rather astonished at OSE. I mean I'm sure it's a fine game....but one I already own cheaply (with the RC POD from drivethru). And about the only argument I hear is ... well it's better organized. And while organization can be important, I've never had a problem with my RC. So.....eh

OSE and a few other direct clones serve the useful function of playing the D&D you want with new rulebooks without having to give WotC a single penny.

A very underrated role in the hobby.

jeff37923 · April 28, 2022, 05:34:26 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on April 28, 2022, 05:11:19 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 27, 2022, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.

Agreed. I'm rather astonished at OSE. I mean I'm sure it's a fine game....but one I already own cheaply (with the RC POD from drivethru). And about the only argument I hear is ... well it's better organized. And while organization can be important, I've never had a problem with my RC. So.....eh

OSE and a few other direct clones serve the useful function of playing the D&D you want with new rulebooks without having to give WotC a single penny.

A very underrated role in the hobby.

^^This^^

I don't care what happens to the current incarnation of D&D or the rape victims they publish which used to be great adventures and settings of D&D past. The more they death spiral, the better.

I've got D&D 3.x, Pathfinder 1, Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, Old School Essentials and the Rules Cyclopedia. My game group and I will be fine.

Jam The MF · April 28, 2022, 07:53:15 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on April 28, 2022, 05:34:26 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 28, 2022, 05:11:19 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 27, 2022, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.

Agreed. I'm rather astonished at OSE. I mean I'm sure it's a fine game....but one I already own cheaply (with the RC POD from drivethru). And about the only argument I hear is ... well it's better organized. And while organization can be important, I've never had a problem with my RC. So.....eh

OSE and a few other direct clones serve the useful function of playing the D&D you want with new rulebooks without having to give WotC a single penny.

A very underrated role in the hobby.

^^This^^

I don't care what happens to the current incarnation of D&D or the rape victims they publish which used to be great adventures and settings of D&D past. The more they death spiral, the better.

I've got D&D 3.x, Pathfinder 1, Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, Old School Essentials and the Rules Cyclopedia. My game group and I will be fine.

Well said.

Dropbear · April 29, 2022, 12:12:28 AM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 12:08:10 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 11:29:53 AM
With SJ they just want to steal something cool and make it their own, cuz they cannot create anything original, only corrupt what others have created.
Exactly. Back in around 2004 Darkfuries published their own take on spelljammer called "Aether & Flux." While it used realistic outer space rules as a basis, it them added on the concepts of aether and flux to allow for fantasy space travel. Aether (derived from the obsolete scientific theory of luminiferous aether) was a substance or force that was present everywhere but the density changed depending on its distance from gravity wells; it's basically stellar winds. On the edges of star systems it formed a sphere known as the pale aether (derived from the idiom "beyond the pale"), beyond which FTL speeds were possible and thus interstellar space was also called "the traverse" because it was used almost entirely for traversing between systems a la hyperspace or SJ's phlogiston. Flux was a force used solely to allow space travel without spelljammers: it was basically electricity that repelled aether and thus could be used to create the fantasy (steampunk?) equivalent of solar sails, artificial gravity, atmosphere scrubbers, and even lightning canons. (The name is derived from the flux capacitor device used to generate it, itself a reference to the Back to the Future movies.) Unfortunately, the PDF isn't currently available on Drivethrurpg due to technical issues that started three years ago. (Thankfully I bought the PDF before that happened.) I've contacted both drivethrurpg and author Brian Moseley to no avail. I find that frustrating because it's a unique concept that I haven't seen implemented anywhere else. Other D&D space travel settings use not!spelljammers or transplanted scifi tech instead. Aether & Flux strikes me as more steampunk than anything else.

It is apparently still available in print here: http://www.darkfuries.com/books/pi4001.html

BoxCrayonTales · April 29, 2022, 10:57:01 AM

Quote from: Dropbear on April 29, 2022, 12:12:28 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 12:08:10 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 11:29:53 AM
With SJ they just want to steal something cool and make it their own, cuz they cannot create anything original, only corrupt what others have created.
Exactly. Back in around 2004 Darkfuries published their own take on spelljammer called "Aether & Flux." While it used realistic outer space rules as a basis, it them added on the concepts of aether and flux to allow for fantasy space travel. Aether (derived from the obsolete scientific theory of luminiferous aether) was a substance or force that was present everywhere but the density changed depending on its distance from gravity wells; it's basically stellar winds. On the edges of star systems it formed a sphere known as the pale aether (derived from the idiom "beyond the pale"), beyond which FTL speeds were possible and thus interstellar space was also called "the traverse" because it was used almost entirely for traversing between systems a la hyperspace or SJ's phlogiston. Flux was a force used solely to allow space travel without spelljammers: it was basically electricity that repelled aether and thus could be used to create the fantasy (steampunk?) equivalent of solar sails, artificial gravity, atmosphere scrubbers, and even lightning canons. (The name is derived from the flux capacitor device used to generate it, itself a reference to the Back to the Future movies.) Unfortunately, the PDF isn't currently available on Drivethrurpg due to technical issues that started three years ago. (Thankfully I bought the PDF before that happened.) I've contacted both drivethrurpg and author Brian Moseley to no avail. I find that frustrating because it's a unique concept that I haven't seen implemented anywhere else. Other D&D space travel settings use not!spelljammers or transplanted scifi tech instead. Aether & Flux strikes me as more steampunk than anything else.

It is apparently still available in print here: http://www.darkfuries.com/books/pi4001.html

I linked that already and I already own the PDF. Thnx

Thorn Drumheller · April 29, 2022, 01:37:17 PM

So as I pondered on this I realized WotC couldn't possibly ruin Dragonlance more than TSR already had. I mean there were like three 'earth shaking' cataclysms, and for my own sanity I had to cut it off somewhere. This new iteration will never by DL for me, it's a moot point.

Now, Spelljammer on the other hand, well it's a given they'll ruin it. So I'll just stick with 2e stuff

Omega · April 29, 2022, 01:43:46 PM

Quote from: migo on April 28, 2022, 05:49:00 AM
One thing is woke marketing could be signalling to investors that the company is healthy, because they can waste money on frivolous pursuits. If it's a division like RPGs that really doesn't bring in any money for a company like Hasbro, they're not really losing anything and may profit by way of investment.

WOTC botched 4e so badly that Hasbro was very close to shutting D&D down. They had WOTC on a very tight budget leash at the end of 4e. 5e was WOTCs big saving throw. But. This being WOTC, failure is the only options and since 5e was doing so well... Break it... And WOTC has been lately hellbent on that. Which is no surprise considering how infested they are at this point.

They'll keep pulling these outrage marketing gags till either they all get fired or D&D or preferably WOTC are shut down.

But as long as 5e is making money or the suits are willing to waste money, it will keep going. Its just a matter of how long that will last at the rate WOTC is going.

Omega · April 29, 2022, 01:47:01 PM

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 29, 2022, 01:37:17 PM
So as I pondered on this I realized WotC couldn't possibly ruin Dragonlance more than TSR already had. I mean there were like three 'earth shaking' cataclysms, and for my own sanity I had to cut it off somewhere. This new iteration will never by DL for me, it's a moot point.

Now, Spelljammer on the other hand, well it's a given they'll ruin it. So I'll just stick with 2e stuff

At least 3.
The pre-campaign one. The dissapearance of the gods one. The Chaos invasion one. Think there was either another one involving the gods, or another mountain getting dropped on someone. Maybe both.