WotC's upcoming #dragonlance and #spelljammer books were made without any consultation from the original designers. It's easy to guess how they plan to ruin Dragonlance for its fans, but can they even ruin Spelljammer?
While input from Jeff Grubb would've been nice (and probably not a bad idea), legally he doesn't have a dog in the fight (I believe he said as much).
Weis and Hickman are a different story. But I don't know the details of how the IPs are held.
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Hey pundit. Watched the video. Another good one. I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice that the "good" guys were women, and not only women, but women of color (one or two or all might even be trans....we don't know), and that the "bad" guys were men (white men, probably straight too).
Here's the thing that hit me when thinking about the sjdubs. They supposedly want equality and equal representation right? Well the truth hit me that no group truly wants equality. If any group is okay with alienating another group then what you really crave is power to get your way. (I know I know, there are groups that we are okay with alienating, like nazi's).
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
Don't talk to the groomer, man. It never ends well.
In any case, I'm pretty sure Grubb has no legal say, but was merely waxing nostalgic.
Weis and Hickman, though... that may be a different kettle of fish.
Plus, if they shit things up, only the retard brigade like Tubesnake's going to buy it. The OG grognards sure won't -- they've been burned too many times (hello, Strixhaven!).
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
Nice strawman, dickhead. But whether it's a corporation or an individual makes no difference. They sold the rights to these settings lock, stock and barrel. For they - or anyone else - to act as if they are being treated unfairly, is nothing but crybaby bullshit.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 26, 2022, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
Don't talk to the groomer, man. It never ends well.
No need to bring your two dads into this.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
I mean, technically they do have a choice in that you can avoid purchasing any of these skinsuit products. However, I do agree that there needs to be better measures to protect against corporate IP bullying.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 26, 2022, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
Don't talk to the groomer, man. It never ends well.
In any case, I'm pretty sure Grubb has no legal say, but was merely waxing nostalgic.
Weis and Hickman, though... that may be a different kettle of fish.
Weis & Hickman have no
legal say, but for numerous reasons, a large portion of the fanbase won't regard a DL done without them as legitimate—and DL's fanbase isn't large enough that you can alienate that big a chunk of it. If WotC can't sell this to their brave new audience, it's likely to be a financial disappointment as well as a creative one.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 26, 2022, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
Don't talk to the groomer, man. It never ends well.
In any case, I'm pretty sure Grubb has no legal say, but was merely waxing nostalgic.
Weis and Hickman, though... that may be a different kettle of fish.
Plus, if they shit things up, only the retard brigade like Tubesnake's going to buy it. The OG grognards sure won't -- they've been burned too many times (hello, Strixhaven!).
RE: Spelljammer, I doubt they will mess it up to much, beyond the usual arbitrary changes that make no sense with the established lore. But as Pundit pointed out in the video and others have pointed out in other occasions as well, SJ sort of lends itself to the random kitchen sink approach WotC has taken up for current D&D, so it might see moderate success (except maybe for the ridiculous $70 three pamphlet boxed set I've heard about).
RE: Dragonlance, I'm sure a lot of idiots who lap anything WotC puts out will buy it initially, and it will probably see some hate sales from wokesters eager to see DL ruined for the imagined crimes of bigotry that they've projected into the authors' work and the idea that WotC will now sanitize it for a "modern audience". But I have to wonder how well the setting will do on hate sales alone and purchases from people who don't know better, without the support of actual DL fans.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 10:03:17 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
Nice strawman, dickhead. But whether it's a corporation or an individual makes no difference. They sold the rights to these settings lock, stock and barrel. For they - or anyone else - to act as if they are being treated unfairly, is nothing but crybaby bullshit.
Won't somebody think of the shareholders? :'(
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 10:03:57 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 26, 2022, 10:03:13 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
Don't talk to the groomer, man. It never ends well.
No need to bring your two dads into this.
Progressive AF.
Quote from: Zelen on April 26, 2022, 10:04:52 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 26, 2022, 07:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 26, 2022, 08:21:44 AM
Boo fucking hoo. That's what happens when you sell the rights to your shit.
Fucking entitled plebs and their belief that they have a right to have a say on the matter! Who do they think they are? Corporations? >:(
I mean, technically they do have a choice in that you can avoid purchasing any of these skinsuit products. However, I do agree that there needs to be better measures to protect against corporate IP bullying.
I doubt any actual fans will be buying these books.
It's interesting how the only people who seem to take issue with corporations anymore are those who don't subscribe to the "left".
They screwed up Forgotten Realms already, it's about time that they did it to the other major settings. They'll get around to ruining Greyhawk too somehow.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:34:17 AM
RE: Spelljammer, I doubt they will mess it up to much, beyond the usual arbitrary changes that make no sense with the established lore. But as Pundit pointed out in the video and others have pointed out in other occasions as well, SJ sort of lends itself to the random kitchen sink approach WotC has taken up for current D&D, so it might see moderate success (except maybe for the ridiculous $70 three pamphlet boxed set I've heard about).
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Beyond the oh so socially progressive trailer nothing interests me about either product
Why because they will turn both settings into the equivalent of boring Vanilla Ice cream.
Regarding " their new take " on the Three orders of Sorcery they still exist yet players can be any kind of Wizard if they desire so anything goes. What's next you can call yourself a Knight of Solmania without any belief in the actual Solmanic order. Fuck that shit.
If one is going to remove the lire of both settings and go with an anything and everything goes mindset nothing is left of setting lore. What's the ponit of rebooting both sethings. To turn each into generic boring as vanilla ice cream A and B.
Quote from: migo on April 27, 2022, 07:30:28 AM
They screwed up Forgotten Realms already, it's about time that they did it to the other major settings. They'll get around to ruining Greyhawk too somehow.
LOL. My thoughts exactly. Since their purpose is to 'cleanse' the undesirable elements. And here's the beautiful thing. WotC can do whatever the hurk they want with the settings because they own them. But, they're not my Dragonlance, or my FR, or my Greyhawk (or my Drow lore etc). WotC has already loudly proclaimed they don't want my money. I've got plenty of setting material, I really don't need more "official" content.
Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.
Agreed. I'm rather astonished at OSE. I mean I'm sure it's a fine game....but one I already own cheaply (with the RC POD from drivethru). And about the only argument I hear is ... well it's better organized. And while organization can be important, I've never had a problem with my RC. So.....eh
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
Oh fuck off you disingenuous twat.
You don't get to play the victim or claim to hold the moral high ground when you have shown to simply be trolling in most cases. Every so often I will admit you can make a valid point.
Usually it so you can get a reaction from those here and nothing else.
So keep trolling Troll.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
Have you heard of the 'Boy Who Cried Wolf'? Do you understand the point of it? Once a troll, always a troll. You don't get to take your troll hat off and be taken seriously. If you accidentally make a valid point, it's exactly that - an accident. You were still trolling, because a troll is all you are and ever will be.
Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:34:17 AM
RE: Spelljammer, I doubt they will mess it up to much, beyond the usual arbitrary changes that make no sense with the established lore. But as Pundit pointed out in the video and others have pointed out in other occasions as well, SJ sort of lends itself to the random kitchen sink approach WotC has taken up for current D&D, so it might see moderate success (except maybe for the ridiculous $70 three pamphlet boxed set I've heard about).
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.
No box set is worth $70, unless it includes a bunch of miniatures and such. No matter how many idiots are willing to pay for it.
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
I don't take him seriously. I'm just trolling back.
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
If one is going to remove the lire of both settings and go with an anything and everything goes mindset nothing is left of setting lore. What's the ponit of rebooting both sethings. To turn each into generic boring as vanilla ice cream A and B.
The point is to SuBvErT an existing property that has been declared bigoted by the usual suspects and shit all over it as an act of dominance. At least with DL.
With SJ they just want to steal something cool and make it their own, cuz they cannot create anything original, only corrupt what others have created.
Quote from: migo on April 27, 2022, 10:43:19 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
Have you heard of the 'Boy Who Cried Wolf'? Do you understand the point of it? Once a troll, always a troll. You don't get to take your troll hat off and be taken seriously. If you accidentally make a valid point, it's exactly that - an accident. You were still trolling, because a troll is all you are and ever will be.
It's always fun when they pretend to be both offended and clueless as to why no one here wants yo believe them anymore.
As you said cry wolf too many times and I'm not going to listen to what one has to say.
Unfortunately I expect more fake cluelessness and doubling down on the trolling.
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 10:01:19 AM
Oh fuck off you disingenuous twat.
You don't get to play the victim or claim to hold the moral high ground when you have shown to simply be trolling in most cases. Every so often I will admit you can make a valid point.
Usually it so you can get a reaction from those here and nothing else.
So keep trolling Troll.
No victim here, I find it hilarious, as always. But do go on about "victimhood" as you sidestep my honestly made point with weak excuses not to engage, all while blubbering about "good faith".
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 11:34:49 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 10:01:19 AM
Oh fuck off you disingenuous twat.
You don't get to play the victim or claim to hold the moral high ground when you have shown to simply be trolling in most cases. Every so often I will admit you can make a valid point.
Usually it so you can get a reaction from those here and nothing else.
So keep trolling Troll.
No victim here, I find it hilarious, as always. But do go on about "victimhood" as you sidestep my honestly made point with weak excuses not to engage, all while blubbering about "good faith".
It's no surprise that you would put good faith in scare quotes and say talking about it is blubbering, because as a troll, good faith is something that couldn't be more alien to you.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 11:29:53 AM
With SJ they just want to steal something cool and make it their own, cuz they cannot create anything original, only corrupt what others have created.
Exactly. Back in around 2004 Darkfuries published their own take on spelljammer called "Aether & Flux." (https://www.enworld.org/threads/aether-flux-sailing-the-traverse.118778/) While it used realistic outer space rules as a basis, it them added on the concepts of aether and flux to allow for fantasy space travel. Aether (derived from the obsolete scientific theory of luminiferous aether) was a substance or force that was present everywhere but the density changed depending on its distance from gravity wells; it's basically stellar winds. On the edges of star systems it formed a sphere known as the pale aether (derived from the idiom "beyond the pale"), beyond which FTL speeds were possible and thus interstellar space was also called "the traverse" because it was used almost entirely for traversing between systems a la hyperspace or SJ's phlogiston. Flux was a force used solely to allow space travel without spelljammers: it was basically electricity that repelled aether and thus could be used to create the fantasy (steampunk?) equivalent of solar sails, artificial gravity, atmosphere scrubbers, and even lightning canons. (The name is derived from the flux capacitor device used to generate it, itself a reference to the
Back to the Future movies.) Unfortunately, the PDF isn't currently available on Drivethrurpg due to technical issues that started three years ago. (Thankfully I bought the PDF before that happened.) I've contacted both drivethrurpg and author Brian Moseley to no avail. I find that frustrating because it's a unique concept that I haven't seen implemented anywhere else. Other D&D space travel settings use not!spelljammers or transplanted scifi tech instead. Aether & Flux strikes me as more steampunk than anything else.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 12:08:10 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 11:29:53 AM
With SJ they just want to steal something cool and make it their own, cuz they cannot create anything original, only corrupt what others have created.
Exactly. Back in around 2004 Darkfuries published their own take on spelljammer called "Aether & Flux." (https://www.enworld.org/threads/aether-flux-sailing-the-traverse.118778/) While it used realistic outer space rules as a basis, it them added on the concepts of aether and flux to allow for fantasy space travel. Aether (derived from the obsolete scientific theory of luminiferous aether) was a substance or force that was present everywhere but the density changed depending on its distance from gravity wells; it's basically stellar winds. On the edges of star systems it formed a sphere known as the pale aether (derived from the idiom "beyond the pale"), beyond which FTL speeds were possible and thus interstellar space was also called "the traverse" because it was used almost entirely for traversing between systems a la hyperspace or SJ's phlogiston. Flux was a force used solely to allow space travel without spelljammers: it was basically electricity that repelled aether and thus could be used to create the fantasy (steampunk?) equivalent of solar sails, artificial gravity, atmosphere scrubbers, and even lightning canons. (The name is derived from the flux capacitor device used to generate it, itself a reference to the Back to the Future movies.) Unfortunately, the PDF isn't currently available on Drivethrurpg due to technical issues that started three years ago. (Thankfully I bought the PDF before that happened.) I've contacted both drivethrurpg and author Brian Moseley to no avail. I find that frustrating because it's a unique concept that I haven't seen implemented anywhere else. Other D&D space travel settings use not!spelljammers or transplanted scifi tech instead. Aether & Flux strikes me as more steampunk than anything else.
Interesting take. Unfortunately there's no PDFs to be found, as you pointed out. Coincidentally, I used the term "Flux" in a dimension-hopping setting I've had in the backburner for years, but its meaning there was closer to "Aether" here, or the idea of a core substance from which everything else in reality is created.
Quote from: migo on April 27, 2022, 07:30:28 AM
They screwed up Forgotten Realms already, it's about time that they did it to the other major settings. They'll get around to ruining Greyhawk too somehow.
The OSR has got you covered, it's called Iron Falcon IIRC, and it's from the same folks as BFMAG.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Interesting take. Unfortunately there's no PDFs to be found, as you pointed out.
You could try buying a physical copy on their website: http://www.darkfuries.com/books/pi4001.html
I'd lend you a copy of my PDF, but drivethrurpg has this policy where they'll delete your account if you do that. Even if it is due to a technical issue that they caused and that they refuse to fix. I have verified the pdf myself and there's nothing wrong it. Argh!
Fuck you copyright law.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
This reminds me of Harlan Ellison getting his panties in a wad every time anyone produced anything from IP he sold. Or Alan Moore, or any other crybaby fuck who had no problem taking the money for selling their work, but later on wants to break down and cry every time for-profit companies don't line up to suck the dick of their "artistic vision".
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 01:29:10 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Interesting take. Unfortunately there's no PDFs to be found, as you pointed out.
You could try buying a physical copy on their website: http://www.darkfuries.com/books/pi4001.html
I'd lend you a copy of my PDF, but drivethrurpg has this policy where they'll delete your account if you do that. Even if it is due to a technical issue that they caused and that they refuse to fix. I have verified the pdf myself and there's nothing wrong it. Argh!
Fuck you copyright law.
It's OK. I'll just go with what I can find online for now since I'm mostly just curious about it and get the book eventually if I want more.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
This reminds me of Harlan Ellison getting his panties in a wad every time anyone produced anything from IP he sold. Or Alan Moore, or any other crybaby fuck who had no problem taking the money for selling their work, but later on wants to break down and cry every time for-profit companies don't line up to suck the dick of their "artistic vision".
Copyright laws are largely bullshit and exist mostly to benefit corporations with enough money to enforce them rather than actual creators, making any defense of them defacto defense of corporations, unless you're actually defending a penniless artist having their material stolen or abused. They're so full of shit there's even libertarian arguments against them--that's how well regarded they are, even by people who are actual fan of capitalism. They simply exist so that greedy soulless corporations can profit indefinitely from works created by other people.
Hot take for the day, Spelljammer is just woke Warhammer 40000.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 11:34:49 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 10:01:19 AM
Oh fuck off you disingenuous twat.
You don't get to play the victim or claim to hold the moral high ground when you have shown to simply be trolling in most cases. Every so often I will admit you can make a valid point.
Usually it so you can get a reaction from those here and nothing else.
So keep trolling Troll.
No victim here, I find it hilarious, as always. But do go on about "victimhood" as you sidestep my honestly made point with weak excuses not to engage, all while blubbering about "good faith".
I don't trust anything you have to say 99% of the time it's sheer Trolling to myself and others on this site. So the 1% where your actual made a point and not Troll I summarily ignore.
You honestly thought one good point in the miasma of Trolling that gets posted by you and all is forgiven Nah fuck that. You don't get any benefit of the doubt anymore.
Go Go Soyarmy Trolling Ranger.
Do people still reply to Tubesock because it's so difficult to find the "block" feature on this forum?
You only have one life, no point wasting it typing out responses to obvious trolls.
Quote from: migo on April 27, 2022, 07:30:28 AM
They screwed up Forgotten Realms already, it's about time that they did it to the other major settings. They'll get around to ruining Greyhawk too somehow.
TSR kind of started that as over time FR got more and more stupid. But they did that to Known World too by turning it into Mystara. Greyhawk was for a long time relatively unchanged. I hear something happened in 3e or on. But havent seen yet.
WOTC did a kinda-sorta-almost Greyhawk book as Ghosts of Saltmarsh is set in Greyhawk. Though you only learn about the areas around that town and wherever the original modules ranged out mostly. Which might be a good thing as its less chances for WOTC to screw with it.
So far Spelljammer just seems to be getting relocated from the Phlogston to the Astral. With some races retooled. Not enough shown yet to say how badly it will go.
As for Dragonlance. After thinking on this. The trailer is probably intentional outrage marketing. Meant to bait people into complaining so WOTC can garner free advertising. And Pundit takes the bait and advertises for them like a good little pavlovian dog. They know the buttons to push.
Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 05:14:58 PM
Quote from: migo on April 27, 2022, 07:30:28 AM
They screwed up Forgotten Realms already, it's about time that they did it to the other major settings. They'll get around to ruining Greyhawk too somehow.
TSR kind of started that as over time FR got more and more stupid. But they did that to Known World too by turning it into Mystara. Greyhawk was for a long time relatively unchanged. I hear something happened in 3e or on. But havent seen yet.
WOTC did a kinda-sorta-almost Greyhawk book as Ghosts of Saltmarsh is set in Greyhawk. Though you only learn about the areas around that town and wherever the original modules ranged out mostly. Which might be a good thing as its less chances for WOTC to screw with it.
So far Spelljammer just seems to be getting relocated from the Phlogston to the Astral. With some races retooled. Not enough shown yet to say how badly it will go.
As for Dragonlance. After thinking on this. The trailer is probably intentional outrage marketing. Meant to bait people into complaining so WOTC can garner free advertising. And Pundit takes the bait and advertises for them like a good little pavlovian dog. They know the buttons to push.
Greetings!
Omega, saying that Pundit is a Pavlovian dog is not only harsh, but unfair. I think your critique is entirely misplaced and wrong, as well. Pundit has taken on the task not only here, but also more specifically at Inappropriate Characters, as well as his own videos, to focus on discussion of concepts, trends, and news going on in the hobby.
Dragonlance and Spelljammer books being produced by WOTC are thus, "Big News" and entirely relevant. In addition, *many* other You-Tube creators and program hosts are discussing these developments. "Legend of Myth", "OSR Unchained" (DM Bloodworth's program); Aaron the Pedantic, I think The Dungeon Dudes, the Dungeoncraft program, (Hosted by Professor Dungeon Master), and probably a few others I'm missing at the moment.
I don't know why you so often snidely critique Pundit's programming, man. His program is about gaming, the gaming hobby, news, and politics.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
The act of buying NuDragonLance is a humiliation ritual for WotC pop-Cultists to submit to, thereby showing their loyalty to the socially sanitized 5e D&D regime. Don't be a WotC pop-Cultist.
And SpellJammer always Fucking sucked. Making it suck even harder, and finally putting the poor thing down is actually a service to the D&D community. As unintentional as it is on WotC's part.
WotC's marketing:
Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth. It is just the wokeoso's conning themselves that they are putting one over on their critics.
It inevitably backfires. And actually turns people away from the product.
i.e. The Venom sequel: Let there be Carnage The wokeoso studio tweety marketing said that venom and eddie's symbiotic relationship was a homo romance... Even though nothing like that was in the film at all.
Insider word on the internet was that nothing like that was in the film, just stupid marketing, so many still went to see the movie, and it did reasonably well. $502.1 million worldwide. FWIW the non-outrage marketed 2018 Venom did $856 million worldwide... So people blamed the coof etc..
But then there is this:
Even though there was no Venom-eddie homo in the actual film, solely due to the wokeoso's outrage marketing - it was banned in China...
The studio's outrage marketing literally cost them tens of Millions of dollars by getting it banned in a major world movie market.
Back to 5e D&D:
So what if the virtue signaling tweets about wheelchairs and gayness is not very explicit in the final releases. It has gotten people to examine the releases closer than they otherwise would have - and exposed them all to be more than a bit pants all-around...
So rather than the books hitting shelves and being bought sight-unseen by the D&D pop-cult masses. Each outrage marketed release is under a microscope buy channels that would otherwise not give a shit, and all the WotC devs design shortcomings are getting more exposure than ever before.
No more threads on 5e cheerleader sites about how the new hotness 5e release is the top selling D&D book for x weeks running.
Now more than ever, they hit, and then they fade...
IMHO; WotC needs to do more outrage marketing, not less. Because I like what it is doing to them.
Uh... Venom isn't male. Whatever their relationship is, it isn't homosexual.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
IMHO; WotC needs to do more outrage marketing, not less. Because I like what it is doing to them.
Agreed 1000%
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 08:38:48 PM
Uh... Venom isn't male. Whatever their relationship is, it isn't homosexual.
Bestiality then?
Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth.
I don't entirely agree with this. Outrage marketing can work, but it works when the product is good and the outrage is dumb. It fails in the reverse scenario, which is where WOTC finds itself.
Quote from: SHARK on April 27, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Omega, saying that Pundit is a Pavlovian dog is not only harsh, but unfair. I think your critique is entirely misplaced and wrong, as well. Pundit has taken on the task not only here, but also more specifically at Inappropriate Characters, as well as his own videos, to focus on discussion of concepts, trends, and news going on in the hobby.
I don't know why you so often snidely critique Pundit's programming, man. His program is about gaming, the gaming hobby, news, and politics.
It is neither harsh nor unfair. And we all fall for it all too often. Even me and I am on to their little game and still fell for it. Every post and vid we make in opposition of whatever concocted wrong WOTC in particular is smokescreening today is just more free advertising for them.
I do not snidely critique Pundit. I point out a very real problem that we are being played and Pundit really should pay attention more. We have seen time and again now where WOTC makes some announcement that reads WOKE AGENDA!!!, but the actual product has had a marked tendency to not have these proclaimed things. Either so small an instance as to be just short of non-existent. Or like Candlekeep... really is non-existent.
And odds are that this trailer for Dragonlance is another. The book will come out and aside from some minority inserts in the art and maybe a reference to some lesbian kender or the return of the cross-dressing draconian... Will be pretty baseline a product again. Radiant Citadel may be the exception but havent seen it yet so who knows.
Baseline is we need to stop salivating every time they ring the damn bell.
Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on April 27, 2022, 09:22:47 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth.
I don't entirely agree with this. Outrage marketing can work, but it works when the product is good and the outrage is dumb. It fails in the reverse scenario, which is where WOTC finds itself.
I actually am dubious outrage marketing works either. Problem is... Marketing believes it works as it of were a mandate from god.
They believe that any losses they garner will be outweighed by new arrivals attracted by the outrage. This goes back to the edition treadmil surge and why some companies were putting out new editions that seemed hand crafted to piss off fans of the older editions. Or pissed off there was a new edition at all.
Marketing keeps telling the execs that they can recoup the losses in customers. But 4e proved them wrong finally.
Jeff Grubb did not sell Spelljammer. He was working for TSR at the time, the company owned it from day one. As for Weis and Hickman, they did some legal arrangement with TSR, so sockpuppet is correct, they sold the IP fair and square. Of course, back when they sold it they probably sold it to people with whom they had some kind of basic respect and the expectation that they wouldn't be treated like shit, but that's the way the cookie crumbles when a company gets sold and decades go by. Just ask the Tolkiens how they feel about the big fat nothing they got for the recent movies.
Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 10:53:46 PM
Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on April 27, 2022, 09:22:47 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth.
I don't entirely agree with this. Outrage marketing can work, but it works when the product is good and the outrage is dumb. It fails in the reverse scenario, which is where WOTC finds itself.
I actually am dubious outrage marketing works either. Problem is... Marketing believes it works as it of were a mandate from god.
They believe that any losses they garner will be outweighed by new arrivals attracted by the outrage. This goes back to the edition treadmil surge and why some companies were putting out new editions that seemed hand crafted to piss off fans of the older editions. Or pissed off there was a new edition at all.
Marketing keeps telling the execs that they can recoup the losses in customers. But 4e proved them wrong finally.
4e didn't fail because of outrage marketing. 3.5 was an objectively bad design, and the longer it stayed around the worse it got for new players. It was designed explicitly with trap choices, and so system mastery matters. So after a while if you picked it up new you were at a severe disadvantage, because you'd be falling into the choices and your character couldn't compete with those who had optimised builds. They had to make a new edition because sales were slowing down.
4e mechanically was good, but the higher ups in Hasbro were undoubtedly upset at the result of the OGL, so 4e came up with the extremely restrictive GSL that was designed and intended to kill the OGL. So devs wouldn't touch 4e at all, even though it seemed like a perfect platform for EarthDawn, and it was being considered for that. And 4e ended up having next to no 3rd party support, which was all shifted over to Pathfinder, and the OSR got an extra shot of life because there were people who just wouldn't touch Pathfinder for the same reason 3.5 was failing.
It was the GSL that killed 4e, nothing else.
Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 10:53:46 PM
Quote from: Cat the Bounty Smuggler on April 27, 2022, 09:22:47 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PM
Outrage marketing doesn't work. It's a myth.
I don't entirely agree with this. Outrage marketing can work, but it works when the product is good and the outrage is dumb. It fails in the reverse scenario, which is where WOTC finds itself.
I actually am dubious outrage marketing works either. Problem is... Marketing believes it works as it of were a mandate from god.
They believe that any losses they garner will be outweighed by new arrivals attracted by the outrage. This goes back to the edition treadmil surge and why some companies were putting out new editions that seemed hand crafted to piss off fans of the older editions. Or pissed off there was a new edition at all.
Marketing keeps telling the execs that they can recoup the losses in customers. But 4e proved them wrong finally.
We miss the key information: selling trends. We actually don't know the unit sold of every single product, so we cannot correlate money with wokeness (real or just proclamed).
One thing is woke marketing could be signalling to investors that the company is healthy, because they can waste money on frivolous pursuits. If it's a division like RPGs that really doesn't bring in any money for a company like Hasbro, they're not really losing anything and may profit by way of investment.
The other thing is if a company is going broke, they may go woke as a last ditch effort. Their core customer base has already largely abandoned them (or they made some terrible financial decisions), so they do woke marketing to try to get a new customer base.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
You mean like Elon Musk?
Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 10:44:14 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 27, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Omega, saying that Pundit is a Pavlovian dog is not only harsh, but unfair. I think your critique is entirely misplaced and wrong, as well. Pundit has taken on the task not only here, but also more specifically at Inappropriate Characters, as well as his own videos, to focus on discussion of concepts, trends, and news going on in the hobby.
I don't know why you so often snidely critique Pundit's programming, man. His program is about gaming, the gaming hobby, news, and politics.
It is neither harsh nor unfair. And we all fall for it all too often. Even me and I am on to their little game and still fell for it. Every post and vid we make in opposition of whatever concocted wrong WOTC in particular is smokescreening today is just more free advertising for them.
I do not snidely critique Pundit. I point out a very real problem that we are being played and Pundit really should pay attention more. We have seen time and again now where WOTC makes some announcement that reads WOKE AGENDA!!!, but the actual product has had a marked tendency to not have these proclaimed things. Either so small an instance as to be just short of non-existent. Or like Candlekeep... really is non-existent.
You're not entirely wrong. WoTC knows that most regular D&D gamers will never see the Dragonlance Trailer, and most SJWs from Tumblr and Twitter will.
On the other hand, they know that most of the SJWs will never buy Dragonlance, while regular gamers will.
But to suggest that there's not any wokeness in the recent D&D products, or that they do not intentionally disfigure the tropes and values of D&D gaming, is wrong.
Also, the problem of wokists in the hobby, which disproportionately affects content creators who aren't woke (because the wokists want to destroy those people), is still very much something that is in my personal interest to point out.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 28, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
You mean like Elon Musk?
Sir, the 13th Amendment forbids owning someone like that. :D
Quote from: Valatar on April 27, 2022, 11:34:01 PM
Jeff Grubb did not sell Spelljammer. He was working for TSR at the time, the company owned it from day one. As for Weis and Hickman, they did some legal arrangement with TSR, so sockpuppet is correct, they sold the IP fair and square. Of course, back when they sold it they probably sold it to people with whom they had some kind of basic respect and the expectation that they wouldn't be treated like shit, but that's the way the cookie crumbles when a company gets sold and decades go by. Just ask the Tolkiens how they feel about the big fat nothing they got for the recent movies.
Hickman came up with the concept for Dragonlance when driving from Utah to Wisconsin to start his job at TSR, then pitched it to them and they bought it; everything since was done as 'work for hire.' And Weis & Hickman's relationship with the ownership has been testy and tumultuous for the past thirty-five years.
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 28, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
You mean like Elon Musk?
Yep. If he ends up buying Twitter, he can do as he damn well pleases with it. Whether you, I, or anyone else likes or dislikes it is beside the point. That's how this shit works.
Thank you captain very Obvious for telling us something we already knew.
It's how Capitalism works 😂
How about coming up with some new material or just something new that no one knows about.
This is why we need more competition in the tabletop space. If companies are ruining old IPs or just preventing the flourishing of alternatives in general, then we should be funding the creation of replacements that scratch that itch. Much like how OnePageRules created alternatives to Games Workshop games.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 28, 2022, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 28, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
You mean like Elon Musk?
Yep. If he ends up buying Twitter, he can do as he damn well pleases with it. Whether you, I, or anyone else likes or dislikes it is beside the point. That's how this shit works.
And if people don't like it, find it unfair or see some sort of flaw in a product they will complain about it as they damn well please. Whether that's how capitalism works or not is beside the point. That's how free speech works.
And crying about "Buy what about the production system and the sacred rights of wealthy individuals and soulless corporations to own shit?" isn't a counter argument.
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 28, 2022, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 28, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
You mean like Elon Musk?
Yep. If he ends up buying Twitter, he can do as he damn well pleases with it. Whether you, I, or anyone else likes or dislikes it is beside the point. That's how this shit works.
Bullshit. The federal government will come down on him like a hammer to "create a safe online environment" and be cheered by half the population to do so. Not to mention the lawfare incoming from all sorts of NGO operations with agendas.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PMAnd SpellJammer always Fucking sucked. Making it suck even harder, and finally putting the poor thing down is actually a service to the D&D community. As unintentional as it is on WotC's part.
Wrong. Spelljammer is one of the three greatest D&D settings ever created (the other two being Dark Sun and Planescape). And as lame as I'm sure that WotC's changes to it will turn out to be, I doubt that they'll end up killing it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the most popular settings for D&D's current audience (grognards who already don't give their money to WotC will probably reject it, though, but WotC has consistently shown they don't care about us).
Never was a fan of Dragon Lance or spelljammer. Barely paged through spelljammer years ago, and DL, though I had the book (1st ed) never caught on for me. I preferred the more Sandbox setting of Greyhawk, and still do. I regret they may be pooping on a property some love, but for me it is no loss.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 11:01:02 AM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 27, 2022, 08:17:17 PMAnd SpellJammer always Fucking sucked. Making it suck even harder, and finally putting the poor thing down is actually a service to the D&D community. As unintentional as it is on WotC's part.
Wrong. Spelljammer is one of the three greatest D&D settings ever created (the other two being Dark Sun and Planescape). And as lame as I'm sure that WotC's changes to it will turn out to be, I doubt that they'll end up killing it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the most popular settings for D&D's current audience (grognards who already don't give their money to WotC will probably reject it, though, but WotC has consistently shown they don't care about us).
It was certainly among the most non-traditional, and your other two settings are also contenders for that. The rest of your post is pretty much exactly my feelings on why this might just be perfect for WotC's intended customers.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 28, 2022, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 28, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
You mean like Elon Musk?
Yep. If he ends up buying Twitter, he can do as he damn well pleases with it. Whether you, I, or anyone else likes or dislikes it is beside the point. That's how this shit works.
Bullshit. The federal government will come down on him like a hammer to "create a safe online environment" and be cheered by half the population to do so. Not to mention the lawfare incoming from all sorts of NGO operations with agendas.
They can try, but the moment they do it opens the doors to ask exactly why Jeff Bezos owns the WaPo.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 11:01:02 AM
Wrong. Spelljammer is one of the three greatest D&D settings ever created (the other two being Dark Sun and Planescape). And as lame as I'm sure that WotC's changes to it will turn out to be, I doubt that they'll end up killing it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the most popular settings for D&D's current audience (grognards who already don't give their money to WotC will probably reject it, though, but WotC has consistently shown they don't care about us).
Meanwhile, as I've noted repeatedly, Dragonlance has a strain in it--anti-establishment, sympathetic to the outcast and 'special snowflakes' as well as intellectuals who are 'beyond good and evil', and religiously relativist and enshrining tolerance and diversity as Supreme Goods--that would be
perfect for WotC's approach to the game if they leaned into it.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 28, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 11:01:02 AM
Wrong. Spelljammer is one of the three greatest D&D settings ever created (the other two being Dark Sun and Planescape). And as lame as I'm sure that WotC's changes to it will turn out to be, I doubt that they'll end up killing it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the most popular settings for D&D's current audience (grognards who already don't give their money to WotC will probably reject it, though, but WotC has consistently shown they don't care about us).
Meanwhile, as I've noted repeatedly, Dragonlance has a strain in it--anti-establishment, sympathetic to the outcast and 'special snowflakes' as well as intellectuals who are 'beyond good and evil', and religiously relativist and enshrining tolerance and diversity as Supreme Goods--that would be perfect for WotC's approach to the game if they leaned into it.
Is there any fantasy setting that doesn't meet those criteria? Because if you're interpreting it that way, then you could describe the whole D&D experience that way. Seems strange to pin it on Dragonlance in particular.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 28, 2022, 11:12:09 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 28, 2022, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 28, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
You mean like Elon Musk?
Yep. If he ends up buying Twitter, he can do as he damn well pleases with it. Whether you, I, or anyone else likes or dislikes it is beside the point. That's how this shit works.
Bullshit. The federal government will come down on him like a hammer to "create a safe online environment" and be cheered by half the population to do so. Not to mention the lawfare incoming from all sorts of NGO operations with agendas.
They can try, but the moment they do it opens the doors to ask exactly why Jeff Bezos owns the WaPo.
I like your optimism that suddenly rules are going to be passed out equally to everyone. I hope you are correct.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 28, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 11:01:02 AM
Wrong. Spelljammer is one of the three greatest D&D settings ever created (the other two being Dark Sun and Planescape). And as lame as I'm sure that WotC's changes to it will turn out to be, I doubt that they'll end up killing it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the most popular settings for D&D's current audience (grognards who already don't give their money to WotC will probably reject it, though, but WotC has consistently shown they don't care about us).
Meanwhile, as I've noted repeatedly, Dragonlance has a strain in it--anti-establishment, sympathetic to the outcast and 'special snowflakes' as well as intellectuals who are 'beyond good and evil', and religiously relativist and enshrining tolerance and diversity as Supreme Goods--that would be perfect for WotC's approach to the game if they leaned into it.
Dragonlance has become tainted among the woke, who have declared it a bigoted and pro-slavery creation of Mormons, who they are allowed to openly disparage and hate, cuz Christianity plus magic underpants.
Not that I'm a fan of these religions, but hating on them is a trend among the woke.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 11:59:59 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on April 28, 2022, 11:12:09 AM
Quote from: oggsmash on April 28, 2022, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 28, 2022, 08:59:18 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on April 28, 2022, 07:51:42 AM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 01:55:34 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:11:30 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 27, 2022, 09:52:22 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on April 27, 2022, 07:39:44 AM
Ignore Cucksuck Soyarmy he is not here to discuss to Troll us on general principles.
Uh-huh. Ignore the guy who brought up the valid point that after selling your IP, you have no reasonable expectation of future involvement with said IP. It's the ones autistically flapping their hands while reflexively screeching, "groomercommiesoyboycuck", apropos of nothing, that are arguing in good faith.
Also, why not Tubesuck? Tubecuck? Jesus, you guys even suck at insults. Then again, I've seen what passes for gaming discourse here, so I'm not surprised.
No defense of the sacred right of corporations or copyright holders of IPs they didn't even create is ever valid. Specially when they haven't even used them in decades, but have simply lorded them over them as "owners".
Um they're selling those products right now and have been for years you utter doorknob.
And I'm not defending corporations, I'm defending the right to own something once someone has willingly and legally sold it to you. It's called capitalism, you might wanna look into it sometime.
You mean like Elon Musk?
Yep. If he ends up buying Twitter, he can do as he damn well pleases with it. Whether you, I, or anyone else likes or dislikes it is beside the point. That's how this shit works.
Bullshit. The federal government will come down on him like a hammer to "create a safe online environment" and be cheered by half the population to do so. Not to mention the lawfare incoming from all sorts of NGO operations with agendas.
They can try, but the moment they do it opens the doors to ask exactly why Jeff Bezos owns the WaPo.
I like your optimism that suddenly rules are going to be passed out equally to everyone. I hope you are correct.
Unfortunately I lean more to this possiblity given what recent history has taught us.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 12:03:42 PM
Dragonlance has become tainted among the woke, who have declared it a bigoted and pro-slavery creation of Mormons, who they are allowed to openly disparage and hate, cuz Christianity plus magic underpants.
Not that I'm a fan of these religions, but hating on them is a trend among the woke.
I can believe that, too. There are at least two different strands in Dragonlance--Hickman's more traditional LDS-based Tolkien homage, and a more cynical, "Neutrality is Good, Evil is iffy but cool, Good is stuck-up and evil," pro-mage, pro-kender, anti-elven, anti-Knightly and anti-clerical strain that I suspect comes more from Weis, as well as contributions from other authors and other iterations of the setting.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on April 28, 2022, 11:30:24 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 28, 2022, 11:01:02 AM
Wrong. Spelljammer is one of the three greatest D&D settings ever created (the other two being Dark Sun and Planescape). And as lame as I'm sure that WotC's changes to it will turn out to be, I doubt that they'll end up killing it. If anything, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be one of the most popular settings for D&D's current audience (grognards who already don't give their money to WotC will probably reject it, though, but WotC has consistently shown they don't care about us).
Meanwhile, as I've noted repeatedly, Dragonlance has a strain in it--anti-establishment, sympathetic to the outcast and 'special snowflakes' as well as intellectuals who are 'beyond good and evil', and religiously relativist and enshrining tolerance and diversity as Supreme Goods--that would be perfect for WotC's approach to the game if they leaned into it.
Those are conservative values now
Ruining a setting is a corporate tradition going back to the TSR days. Does no one remember 2nd Edition pooping on Forgotten Realms? Or Greyhawk Wars? Or whatever the hell Dark Sun became pre-3rd Edition?
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 27, 2022, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.
Agreed. I'm rather astonished at OSE. I mean I'm sure it's a fine game....but one I already own cheaply (with the RC POD from drivethru). And about the only argument I hear is ... well it's better organized. And while organization can be important, I've never had a problem with my RC. So.....eh
OSE and a few other direct clones serve the useful function of playing the D&D you want with new rulebooks without having to give WotC a single penny.
A very underrated role in the hobby.
Quote from: Jaeger on April 28, 2022, 05:11:19 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 27, 2022, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.
Agreed. I'm rather astonished at OSE. I mean I'm sure it's a fine game....but one I already own cheaply (with the RC POD from drivethru). And about the only argument I hear is ... well it's better organized. And while organization can be important, I've never had a problem with my RC. So.....eh
OSE and a few other direct clones serve the useful function of playing the D&D you want with new rulebooks without having to give WotC a single penny.
A very underrated role in the hobby.
^^This^^
I don't care what happens to the current incarnation of D&D or the rape victims they publish which used to be great adventures and settings of D&D past. The more they death spiral, the better.
I've got D&D 3.x, Pathfinder 1, Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, Old School Essentials and the Rules Cyclopedia. My game group and I will be fine.
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 28, 2022, 05:34:26 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on April 28, 2022, 05:11:19 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 27, 2022, 09:22:51 AM
Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.
Agreed. I'm rather astonished at OSE. I mean I'm sure it's a fine game....but one I already own cheaply (with the RC POD from drivethru). And about the only argument I hear is ... well it's better organized. And while organization can be important, I've never had a problem with my RC. So.....eh
OSE and a few other direct clones serve the useful function of playing the D&D you want with new rulebooks without having to give WotC a single penny.
A very underrated role in the hobby.
^^This^^
I don't care what happens to the current incarnation of D&D or the rape victims they publish which used to be great adventures and settings of D&D past. The more they death spiral, the better.
I've got D&D 3.x, Pathfinder 1, Basic Fantasy, Advanced Labyrinth Lord, Old School Essentials and the Rules Cyclopedia. My game group and I will be fine.
Well said.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 12:08:10 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 11:29:53 AM
With SJ they just want to steal something cool and make it their own, cuz they cannot create anything original, only corrupt what others have created.
Exactly. Back in around 2004 Darkfuries published their own take on spelljammer called "Aether & Flux." (https://www.enworld.org/threads/aether-flux-sailing-the-traverse.118778/) While it used realistic outer space rules as a basis, it them added on the concepts of aether and flux to allow for fantasy space travel. Aether (derived from the obsolete scientific theory of luminiferous aether) was a substance or force that was present everywhere but the density changed depending on its distance from gravity wells; it's basically stellar winds. On the edges of star systems it formed a sphere known as the pale aether (derived from the idiom "beyond the pale"), beyond which FTL speeds were possible and thus interstellar space was also called "the traverse" because it was used almost entirely for traversing between systems a la hyperspace or SJ's phlogiston. Flux was a force used solely to allow space travel without spelljammers: it was basically electricity that repelled aether and thus could be used to create the fantasy (steampunk?) equivalent of solar sails, artificial gravity, atmosphere scrubbers, and even lightning canons. (The name is derived from the flux capacitor device used to generate it, itself a reference to the Back to the Future movies.) Unfortunately, the PDF isn't currently available on Drivethrurpg due to technical issues that started three years ago. (Thankfully I bought the PDF before that happened.) I've contacted both drivethrurpg and author Brian Moseley to no avail. I find that frustrating because it's a unique concept that I haven't seen implemented anywhere else. Other D&D space travel settings use not!spelljammers or transplanted scifi tech instead. Aether & Flux strikes me as more steampunk than anything else.
It is apparently still available in print here: http://www.darkfuries.com/books/pi4001.html
Quote from: Dropbear on April 29, 2022, 12:12:28 AM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on April 27, 2022, 12:08:10 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 11:29:53 AM
With SJ they just want to steal something cool and make it their own, cuz they cannot create anything original, only corrupt what others have created.
Exactly. Back in around 2004 Darkfuries published their own take on spelljammer called "Aether & Flux." (https://www.enworld.org/threads/aether-flux-sailing-the-traverse.118778/) While it used realistic outer space rules as a basis, it them added on the concepts of aether and flux to allow for fantasy space travel. Aether (derived from the obsolete scientific theory of luminiferous aether) was a substance or force that was present everywhere but the density changed depending on its distance from gravity wells; it's basically stellar winds. On the edges of star systems it formed a sphere known as the pale aether (derived from the idiom "beyond the pale"), beyond which FTL speeds were possible and thus interstellar space was also called "the traverse" because it was used almost entirely for traversing between systems a la hyperspace or SJ's phlogiston. Flux was a force used solely to allow space travel without spelljammers: it was basically electricity that repelled aether and thus could be used to create the fantasy (steampunk?) equivalent of solar sails, artificial gravity, atmosphere scrubbers, and even lightning canons. (The name is derived from the flux capacitor device used to generate it, itself a reference to the Back to the Future movies.) Unfortunately, the PDF isn't currently available on Drivethrurpg due to technical issues that started three years ago. (Thankfully I bought the PDF before that happened.) I've contacted both drivethrurpg and author Brian Moseley to no avail. I find that frustrating because it's a unique concept that I haven't seen implemented anywhere else. Other D&D space travel settings use not!spelljammers or transplanted scifi tech instead. Aether & Flux strikes me as more steampunk than anything else.
It is apparently still available in print here: http://www.darkfuries.com/books/pi4001.html
I linked that already and I already own the PDF. Thnx
So as I pondered on this I realized WotC couldn't possibly ruin Dragonlance more than TSR already had. I mean there were like three 'earth shaking' cataclysms, and for my own sanity I had to cut it off somewhere. This new iteration will never by DL for me, it's a moot point.
Now, Spelljammer on the other hand, well it's a given they'll ruin it. So I'll just stick with 2e stuff :D
Quote from: migo on April 28, 2022, 05:49:00 AM
One thing is woke marketing could be signalling to investors that the company is healthy, because they can waste money on frivolous pursuits. If it's a division like RPGs that really doesn't bring in any money for a company like Hasbro, they're not really losing anything and may profit by way of investment.
WOTC botched 4e so badly that Hasbro was very close to shutting D&D down. They had WOTC on a very tight budget leash at the end of 4e. 5e was WOTCs big saving throw. But. This being WOTC, failure is the only options and since 5e was doing so well... Break it... And WOTC has been lately hellbent on that. Which is no surprise considering how infested they are at this point.
They'll keep pulling these outrage marketing gags till either they all get fired or D&D or preferably WOTC are shut down.
But as long as 5e is making money or the suits are willing to waste money, it will keep going. Its just a matter of how long that will last at the rate WOTC is going.
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 29, 2022, 01:37:17 PM
So as I pondered on this I realized WotC couldn't possibly ruin Dragonlance more than TSR already had. I mean there were like three 'earth shaking' cataclysms, and for my own sanity I had to cut it off somewhere. This new iteration will never by DL for me, it's a moot point.
Now, Spelljammer on the other hand, well it's a given they'll ruin it. So I'll just stick with 2e stuff :D
At least 3.
The pre-campaign one. The dissapearance of the gods one. The Chaos invasion one. Think there was either another one involving the gods, or another mountain getting dropped on someone. Maybe both.
Quote from: Omega on April 29, 2022, 01:47:01 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 29, 2022, 01:37:17 PM
So as I pondered on this I realized WotC couldn't possibly ruin Dragonlance more than TSR already had. I mean there were like three 'earth shaking' cataclysms, and for my own sanity I had to cut it off somewhere. This new iteration will never by DL for me, it's a moot point.
Now, Spelljammer on the other hand, well it's a given they'll ruin it. So I'll just stick with 2e stuff :D
At least 3.
The pre-campaign one. The dissapearance of the gods one. The Chaos invasion one. Think there was either another one involving the gods, or another mountain getting dropped on someone. Maybe both.
The mountain getting dropped on the Kingpriest was the disappearance of the gods.
Quote from: migo on April 29, 2022, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 29, 2022, 01:47:01 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 29, 2022, 01:37:17 PM
So as I pondered on this I realized WotC couldn't possibly ruin Dragonlance more than TSR already had. I mean there were like three 'earth shaking' cataclysms, and for my own sanity I had to cut it off somewhere. This new iteration will never by DL for me, it's a moot point.
Now, Spelljammer on the other hand, well it's a given they'll ruin it. So I'll just stick with 2e stuff :D
At least 3.
The pre-campaign one. The dissapearance of the gods one. The Chaos invasion one. Think there was either another one involving the gods, or another mountain getting dropped on someone. Maybe both.
The mountain getting dropped on the Kingpriest was the disappearance of the gods.
I thought the disappearance of the Gods was when Tiamat sent Krynn down the wrong trouser leg of time when the other Gods were not looking.
Quote from: Shasarak on April 29, 2022, 05:26:37 PM
Quote from: migo on April 29, 2022, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 29, 2022, 01:47:01 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 29, 2022, 01:37:17 PM
So as I pondered on this I realized WotC couldn't possibly ruin Dragonlance more than TSR already had. I mean there were like three 'earth shaking' cataclysms, and for my own sanity I had to cut it off somewhere. This new iteration will never by DL for me, it's a moot point.
Now, Spelljammer on the other hand, well it's a given they'll ruin it. So I'll just stick with 2e stuff :D
At least 3.
The pre-campaign one. The dissapearance of the gods one. The Chaos invasion one. Think there was either another one involving the gods, or another mountain getting dropped on someone. Maybe both.
The mountain getting dropped on the Kingpriest was the disappearance of the gods.
I thought the disappearance of the Gods was when Tiamat sent Krynn down the wrong trouser leg of time when the other Gods were not looking.
The Gods left when the mountain of fire hit Istar. Takhisis moved Krynn to a different part of the universe, hiding it from the other Gods after Chaos was defeated.
But effectively, yes.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 11:29:53 AM
Quote from: Palleon on April 27, 2022, 07:39:05 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 01:34:17 AM
RE: Spelljammer, I doubt they will mess it up to much, beyond the usual arbitrary changes that make no sense with the established lore. But as Pundit pointed out in the video and others have pointed out in other occasions as well, SJ sort of lends itself to the random kitchen sink approach WotC has taken up for current D&D, so it might see moderate success (except maybe for the ridiculous $70 three pamphlet boxed set I've heard about).
This cost complaint is amusing when a ton of folks have bought the $70 OSE box sets restating rules from two booklets.
No box set is worth $70, unless it includes a bunch of miniatures and such. No matter how many idiots are willing to pay for it.
But is it worth $42? Which is what most people will pay (through Amazon).
Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 10:44:14 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 27, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Omega, saying that Pundit is a Pavlovian dog is not only harsh, but unfair. I think your critique is entirely misplaced and wrong, as well. Pundit has taken on the task not only here, but also more specifically at Inappropriate Characters, as well as his own videos, to focus on discussion of concepts, trends, and news going on in the hobby.
I don't know why you so often snidely critique Pundit's programming, man. His program is about gaming, the gaming hobby, news, and politics.
It is neither harsh nor unfair. And we all fall for it all too often. Even me and I am on to their little game and still fell for it. Every post and vid we make in opposition of whatever concocted wrong WOTC in particular is smokescreening today is just more free advertising for them.
I do not snidely critique Pundit. I point out a very real problem that we are being played and Pundit really should pay attention more. We have seen time and again now where WOTC makes some announcement that reads WOKE AGENDA!!!, but the actual product has had a marked tendency to not have these proclaimed things. Either so small an instance as to be just short of non-existent. Or like Candlekeep... really is non-existent.
And odds are that this trailer for Dragonlance is another. The book will come out and aside from some minority inserts in the art and maybe a reference to some lesbian kender or the return of the cross-dressing draconian... Will be pretty baseline a product again. Radiant Citadel may be the exception but havent seen it yet so who knows.
Baseline is we need to stop salivating every time they ring the damn bell.
I concur, and I've been saying the same thing for over a year now.
The only part I differ from you on is that you appear to be saying Pundit is being tricked by WOTC. He's not. Pundit is posting clickbait with that series of videos. That's all they are. He doesn't care if they turn out to be accurate or not about the product which eventually comes out. He's moved onto the next clickbait. He's thankful WOTC gives him bait to be outraged about in the first place. It's a parasitic relationship he has with WOTC. They feed him bait to be outraged about, and then he exaggerates that bait with his own bait which doubles down on the expected outrage. WOTC gets buzz, Pundit gets clicks, they're all happy.
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 10:44:14 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 27, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Omega, saying that Pundit is a Pavlovian dog is not only harsh, but unfair. I think your critique is entirely misplaced and wrong, as well. Pundit has taken on the task not only here, but also more specifically at Inappropriate Characters, as well as his own videos, to focus on discussion of concepts, trends, and news going on in the hobby.
I don't know why you so often snidely critique Pundit's programming, man. His program is about gaming, the gaming hobby, news, and politics.
It is neither harsh nor unfair. And we all fall for it all too often. Even me and I am on to their little game and still fell for it. Every post and vid we make in opposition of whatever concocted wrong WOTC in particular is smokescreening today is just more free advertising for them.
I do not snidely critique Pundit. I point out a very real problem that we are being played and Pundit really should pay attention more. We have seen time and again now where WOTC makes some announcement that reads WOKE AGENDA!!!, but the actual product has had a marked tendency to not have these proclaimed things. Either so small an instance as to be just short of non-existent. Or like Candlekeep... really is non-existent.
And odds are that this trailer for Dragonlance is another. The book will come out and aside from some minority inserts in the art and maybe a reference to some lesbian kender or the return of the cross-dressing draconian... Will be pretty baseline a product again. Radiant Citadel may be the exception but havent seen it yet so who knows.
Baseline is we need to stop salivating every time they ring the damn bell.
I concur, and I've been saying the same thing for over a year now.
The only part I differ from you on is that you appear to be saying Pundit is being tricked by WOTC. He's not. Pundit is posting clickbait with that series of videos. That's all they are. He doesn't care if they turn out to be accurate or not about the product which eventually comes out. He's moved onto the next clickbait. He's thankful WOTC gives him bait to be outraged about in the first place. It's a parasitic relationship he has with WOTC. They feed him bait to be outraged about, and then he exaggerates that bait with his own bait which doubles down on the expected outrage. WOTC gets buzz, Pundit gets clicks, they're all happy.
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.
Greetings!
Mistwell, guess what?
I have all the WOTC books. Well, most of them. I skipped the Critical Role themed supplements, and I don't have the Dragon book yet. I have bought books--or received them as gifts. I DM 5E D&D, as that is the game that is played in my area. It is the main game at my local game store, and, more importantly, it is the game preferred by my players. Several of them have only ever learned to play D&D, and they are not interested in learning other games in the slightest. Players, both in my game groups at home and at the game store, buy, own, and reference all of the various D&D supplements, so yeah, I suppose by circumstance if not particularly by preference or choice, I am more or less a DM that is also a collector/Completionist.
I'll tell you something else. You know I'm educated. I've been taught to learn, to read, to investigate MYSELF, and to use critical thinking in everything. In addition, as a historian, I have a particular passion for Primary Sources. Just like I have read our Founding Fathers, the Bible, most of the famous philosophers, Hitler's Mein Kampf, Karl Marx, Ayne Rand, and Saul Alinsky's "Rules For Radicals". I have also read Rush Limbaugh and Ronald Reagan, biographies, speeches, interviews, and books they have written.
So, yeah. I own most of the WOTC books. Yes, Pundit has overstated some of the issues and problems in the books. Some of the issues described or proclaimed are not present to the extent feared. However, the SJW's DO have more control and influence in WOTC and gaming in general than ever before, and WOKE fucking elements and influence IS CREEPING INTO THE GAME BOOKS. I'd say it is more or less an element of influence in EVERY WOTC BOOK. It is simply a matter of degree, and an individual's assessment over how meaningful or influential each such element is in each book individually, and as an overall impact of influence in the gaming hobby.
I own the books. I have read them. I'm familiar with the contents of each book, for the most part. I like having first hand knowledge of the books. That fact also allows me to form an educated opinion on them, based on the "primary source", as it were. That's just the way I am.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: migo on April 29, 2022, 03:01:25 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 29, 2022, 01:47:01 PM
Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on April 29, 2022, 01:37:17 PM
So as I pondered on this I realized WotC couldn't possibly ruin Dragonlance more than TSR already had. I mean there were like three 'earth shaking' cataclysms, and for my own sanity I had to cut it off somewhere. This new iteration will never by DL for me, it's a moot point.
Now, Spelljammer on the other hand, well it's a given they'll ruin it. So I'll just stick with 2e stuff :D
At least 3.
The pre-campaign one. The dissapearance of the gods one. The Chaos invasion one. Think there was either another one involving the gods, or another mountain getting dropped on someone. Maybe both.
The mountain getting dropped on the Kingpriest was the disappearance of the gods.
Nah, there was a second "gods disappear" thing. I only have one book from it so no idea what happened.
Quote from: Omega on April 30, 2022, 05:09:41 AM
Nah, there was a second "gods disappear" thing. I only have one book from it so no idea what happened.
That was the aftermath of the Chaos War. Originally, the idea was that the gods left with Chaos; later, Weis & Hickman retconned it into the Dark Queen stole the world from the gods.
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
Quote from: Omega on April 27, 2022, 10:44:14 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 27, 2022, 06:22:54 PM
Omega, saying that Pundit is a Pavlovian dog is not only harsh, but unfair. I think your critique is entirely misplaced and wrong, as well. Pundit has taken on the task not only here, but also more specifically at Inappropriate Characters, as well as his own videos, to focus on discussion of concepts, trends, and news going on in the hobby.
I don't know why you so often snidely critique Pundit's programming, man. His program is about gaming, the gaming hobby, news, and politics.
It is neither harsh nor unfair. And we all fall for it all too often. Even me and I am on to their little game and still fell for it. Every post and vid we make in opposition of whatever concocted wrong WOTC in particular is smokescreening today is just more free advertising for them.
I do not snidely critique Pundit. I point out a very real problem that we are being played and Pundit really should pay attention more. We have seen time and again now where WOTC makes some announcement that reads WOKE AGENDA!!!, but the actual product has had a marked tendency to not have these proclaimed things. Either so small an instance as to be just short of non-existent. Or like Candlekeep... really is non-existent.
And odds are that this trailer for Dragonlance is another. The book will come out and aside from some minority inserts in the art and maybe a reference to some lesbian kender or the return of the cross-dressing draconian... Will be pretty baseline a product again. Radiant Citadel may be the exception but havent seen it yet so who knows.
Baseline is we need to stop salivating every time they ring the damn bell.
I concur, and I've been saying the same thing for over a year now.
The only part I differ from you on is that you appear to be saying Pundit is being tricked by WOTC. He's not. Pundit is posting clickbait with that series of videos. That's all they are. He doesn't care if they turn out to be accurate or not about the product which eventually comes out. He's moved onto the next clickbait. He's thankful WOTC gives him bait to be outraged about in the first place. It's a parasitic relationship he has with WOTC. They feed him bait to be outraged about, and then he exaggerates that bait with his own bait which doubles down on the expected outrage. WOTC gets buzz, Pundit gets clicks, they're all happy.
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.
QFT
Anyone talking about there being no SJW influence in WOTC has not ever listened to Crawford speak.
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 01:09:00 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.
So, yeah. I own most of the WOTC books. Yes, Pundit has overstated some of the issues and problems in the books. Some of the issues described or proclaimed are not present to the extent feared. However, the SJW's DO have more control and influence in WOTC and gaming in general than ever before, and WOKE fucking elements and influence IS CREEPING INTO THE GAME BOOKS. I'd say it is more or less an element of influence in EVERY WOTC BOOK. It is simply a matter of degree, and an individual's assessment over how meaningful or influential each such element is in each book individually, and as an overall impact of influence in the gaming hobby.
I own the books. I have read them.
I'm glad you acknowledge here the Pundit has overstated things, as have others - but when he has done so in the past, I haven't seen you call him out about it. Mistwell particularly references Candlekeep Mysteries, where Pundit said that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official and that every dungeon in that and all later books were wheelchair accessible. That's not a slight exaggeration - that's completely at odds with what is in the published book, which has no wheelchairs at all and none of the adventures are accessible. One adventure has ramps like the Egyptian pyramids it is modeled on.
I agree that there is some woke influence, but most of it seems very cosmetic - like a gay NPC couple where if ones change a handful of words to switch genders and it would be gone.
Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 01:09:00 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.
So, yeah. I own most of the WOTC books. Yes, Pundit has overstated some of the issues and problems in the books. Some of the issues described or proclaimed are not present to the extent feared. However, the SJW's DO have more control and influence in WOTC and gaming in general than ever before, and WOKE fucking elements and influence IS CREEPING INTO THE GAME BOOKS. I'd say it is more or less an element of influence in EVERY WOTC BOOK. It is simply a matter of degree, and an individual's assessment over how meaningful or influential each such element is in each book individually, and as an overall impact of influence in the gaming hobby.
I own the books. I have read them.
I'm glad you acknowledge here the Pundit has overstated things, as have others - but when he has done so in the past, I haven't seen you call him out about it. Mistwell particularly references Candlekeep Mysteries, where Pundit said that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official and that every dungeon in that and all later books were wheelchair accessible. That's not a slight exaggeration - that's completely at odds with what is in the published book, which has no wheelchairs at all and none of the adventures are accessible. One adventure has ramps like the Egyptian pyramids it is modeled on.
I agree that there is some woke influence, but most of it seems very cosmetic - like a gay NPC couple where if ones change a handful of words to switch genders and it would be gone.
Greetings!
You obviously have never heard of the expression, "Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good". I don't "Call him out on it" because it is trivial, and at the end of the day, his main point is essentially true.
Are Combat Wheelchairs in Candlekeep? Well, perhaps not. However, the Leftist shrew that came up with them has been very influential in the hobby at large. Miniature companies have even made miniatures of characters in combat wheelchairs for fuck's sake. Beyond that, the whole cock-sucking SJW drive for "Representation" and other Marxist bullshit has been flooding into modules and supplements everywhere. Omega has gone on at length about how the fucking SJW's seek to use disabled people as a kind of social battering ram or club to attack and corrupt the hobby--while also not being respectful of disabled people that don't embrace their fucking agenda.
So, the whole bullshit argument of "representation' and "inclusion" of disabled people--the whole "Ableist" attack--along with the bandwagon of "representation" of minorities, of women, of the rainbow fruitloops, of geesus whatever the fuck--is all very real. It's all very corrupt, and divisive, and also right out of Marxism. And it is destroying the hobby.
Being fucking "sensitive" and hiring--HIRING!--"sensitivity readers" to make books "acceptable". That's a total fucking corrupt enterprise of worthless fucking Marxist grifters. That impetus and development in hiring and editing staff is terrible for the hobby. It is yet one more weapon and line of attack that the Marxist SJW's are using to attack, infiltrate, corrupt, and destroy the gaming hobby.
So, Pundit is absolutely right and justified in counterattacking the fucking SJW's and their influence throughout the gaming hobby as a whole.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 01:09:00 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.
So, yeah. I own most of the WOTC books. Yes, Pundit has overstated some of the issues and problems in the books. Some of the issues described or proclaimed are not present to the extent feared. However, the SJW's DO have more control and influence in WOTC and gaming in general than ever before, and WOKE fucking elements and influence IS CREEPING INTO THE GAME BOOKS. I'd say it is more or less an element of influence in EVERY WOTC BOOK. It is simply a matter of degree, and an individual's assessment over how meaningful or influential each such element is in each book individually, and as an overall impact of influence in the gaming hobby.
I own the books. I have read them.
I'm glad you acknowledge here the Pundit has overstated things, as have others - but when he has done so in the past, I haven't seen you call him out about it. Mistwell particularly references Candlekeep Mysteries, where Pundit said that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official and that every dungeon in that and all later books were wheelchair accessible. That's not a slight exaggeration - that's completely at odds with what is in the published book, which has no wheelchairs at all and none of the adventures are accessible. One adventure has ramps like the Egyptian pyramids it is modeled on.
I agree that there is some woke influence, but most of it seems very cosmetic - like a gay NPC couple where if ones change a handful of words to switch genders and it would be gone.
Greetings!
You obviously have never heard of the expression, "Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good". I don't "Call him out on it" because it is trivial, and at the end of the day, his main point is essentially true.
Are Combat Wheelchairs in Candlekeep? Well, perhaps not. However, the Leftist shrew that came up with them has been very influential in the hobby at large. Miniature companies have even made miniatures of characters in combat wheelchairs for fuck's sake. Beyond that, the whole cock-sucking SJW drive for "Representation" and other Marxist bullshit has been flooding into modules and supplements everywhere. Omega has gone on at length about how the fucking SJW's seek to use disabled people as a kind of social battering ram or club to attack and corrupt the hobby--while also not being respectful of disabled people that don't embrace their fucking agenda.
So, the whole bullshit argument of "representation' and "inclusion" of disabled people--the whole "Ableist" attack--along with the bandwagon of "representation" of minorities, of women, of the rainbow fruitloops, of geesus whatever the fuck--is all very real. It's all very corrupt, and divisive, and also right out of Marxism. And it is destroying the hobby.
Being fucking "sensitive" and hiring--HIRING!--"sensitivity readers" to make books "acceptable". That's a total fucking corrupt enterprise of worthless fucking Marxist grifters. That impetus and development in hiring and editing staff is terrible for the hobby. It is yet one more weapon and line of attack that the Marxist SJW's are using to attack, infiltrate, corrupt, and destroy the gaming hobby.
So, Pundit is absolutely right and justified in counterattacking the fucking SJW's and their influence throughout the gaming hobby as a whole.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Wait, you mean to tell me that some of Pundit's predictions about some books haven't materialized!?
Please do conceptualize my utter amazement.
LOL, the really amazing thing is that he (and many of us that don't do videos), manages to predict as many as he does. Without internal sources or a leaked book.
His batting average would make him a famous medium if he was trying to market himself as such.
What his detractors are obscuring is that he does get soo many things right, without access to the source material...
Because once you know how the addled brains of the SJW work it's not that hard to predict what they'll do. Since he can't really see the future he will get some stuff wrong.
Now please tell me: What is it, is he a mediocre furtune teller or he knows the enemy?
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 01:09:00 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.
So, yeah. I own most of the WOTC books. Yes, Pundit has overstated some of the issues and problems in the books. Some of the issues described or proclaimed are not present to the extent feared. However, the SJW's DO have more control and influence in WOTC and gaming in general than ever before, and WOKE fucking elements and influence IS CREEPING INTO THE GAME BOOKS. I'd say it is more or less an element of influence in EVERY WOTC BOOK. It is simply a matter of degree, and an individual's assessment over how meaningful or influential each such element is in each book individually, and as an overall impact of influence in the gaming hobby.
I own the books. I have read them.
I'm glad you acknowledge here the Pundit has overstated things, as have others - but when he has done so in the past, I haven't seen you call him out about it. Mistwell particularly references Candlekeep Mysteries, where Pundit said that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official and that every dungeon in that and all later books were wheelchair accessible. That's not a slight exaggeration - that's completely at odds with what is in the published book, which has no wheelchairs at all and none of the adventures are accessible. One adventure has ramps like the Egyptian pyramids it is modeled on.
I agree that there is some woke influence, but most of it seems very cosmetic - like a gay NPC couple where if ones change a handful of words to switch genders and it would be gone.
Greetings!
You obviously have never heard of the expression, "Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good". I don't "Call him out on it" because it is trivial, and at the end of the day, his main point is essentially true.
Are Combat Wheelchairs in Candlekeep? Well, perhaps not. However, the Leftist shrew that came up with them has been very influential in the hobby at large. Miniature companies have even made miniatures of characters in combat wheelchairs for fuck's sake. Beyond that, the whole cock-sucking SJW drive for "Representation" and other Marxist bullshit has been flooding into modules and supplements everywhere. Omega has gone on at length about how the fucking SJW's seek to use disabled people as a kind of social battering ram or club to attack and corrupt the hobby--while also not being respectful of disabled people that don't embrace their fucking agenda.
So, the whole bullshit argument of "representation' and "inclusion" of disabled people--the whole "Ableist" attack--along with the bandwagon of "representation" of minorities, of women, of the rainbow fruitloops, of geesus whatever the fuck--is all very real. It's all very corrupt, and divisive, and also right out of Marxism. And it is destroying the hobby.
Being fucking "sensitive" and hiring--HIRING!--"sensitivity readers" to make books "acceptable". That's a total fucking corrupt enterprise of worthless fucking Marxist grifters. That impetus and development in hiring and editing staff is terrible for the hobby. It is yet one more weapon and line of attack that the Marxist SJW's are using to attack, infiltrate, corrupt, and destroy the gaming hobby.
So, Pundit is absolutely right and justified in counterattacking the fucking SJW's and their influence throughout the gaming hobby as a whole.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
So the truth doesn't matter, as long as it's your guy doing the lying. Got it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2022, 03:34:07 PM
Wait, you mean to tell me that some of Pundit's predictions about some books haven't materialized!?
Please do conceptualize my utter amazement.
LOL, the really amazing thing is that he (and many of us that don't do videos), manages to predict as many as he does. Without internal sources or a leaked book.
His batting average would make him a famous medium if he was trying to market himself as such.
What his detractors are obscuring is that he does get soo many things right, without access to the source material...
Because once you know how the addled brains of the SJW work it's not that hard to predict what they'll do. Since he can't really see the future he will get some stuff wrong.
Now please tell me: What is it, is he a mediocre furtune teller or he knows the enemy?
You are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful. Pundit wasn't "predicting" anything, he was talking about a product that had been out for 9 months at the time he made this post:.
(https://img.fae.ro/f14632.png)
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 30, 2022, 03:57:16 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 01:09:00 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.
So, yeah. I own most of the WOTC books. Yes, Pundit has overstated some of the issues and problems in the books. Some of the issues described or proclaimed are not present to the extent feared. However, the SJW's DO have more control and influence in WOTC and gaming in general than ever before, and WOKE fucking elements and influence IS CREEPING INTO THE GAME BOOKS. I'd say it is more or less an element of influence in EVERY WOTC BOOK. It is simply a matter of degree, and an individual's assessment over how meaningful or influential each such element is in each book individually, and as an overall impact of influence in the gaming hobby.
I own the books. I have read them.
I'm glad you acknowledge here the Pundit has overstated things, as have others - but when he has done so in the past, I haven't seen you call him out about it. Mistwell particularly references Candlekeep Mysteries, where Pundit said that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official and that every dungeon in that and all later books were wheelchair accessible. That's not a slight exaggeration - that's completely at odds with what is in the published book, which has no wheelchairs at all and none of the adventures are accessible. One adventure has ramps like the Egyptian pyramids it is modeled on.
I agree that there is some woke influence, but most of it seems very cosmetic - like a gay NPC couple where if ones change a handful of words to switch genders and it would be gone.
Greetings!
You obviously have never heard of the expression, "Don't let the Perfect be the enemy of the Good". I don't "Call him out on it" because it is trivial, and at the end of the day, his main point is essentially true.
Are Combat Wheelchairs in Candlekeep? Well, perhaps not. However, the Leftist shrew that came up with them has been very influential in the hobby at large. Miniature companies have even made miniatures of characters in combat wheelchairs for fuck's sake. Beyond that, the whole cock-sucking SJW drive for "Representation" and other Marxist bullshit has been flooding into modules and supplements everywhere. Omega has gone on at length about how the fucking SJW's seek to use disabled people as a kind of social battering ram or club to attack and corrupt the hobby--while also not being respectful of disabled people that don't embrace their fucking agenda.
So, the whole bullshit argument of "representation' and "inclusion" of disabled people--the whole "Ableist" attack--along with the bandwagon of "representation" of minorities, of women, of the rainbow fruitloops, of geesus whatever the fuck--is all very real. It's all very corrupt, and divisive, and also right out of Marxism. And it is destroying the hobby.
Being fucking "sensitive" and hiring--HIRING!--"sensitivity readers" to make books "acceptable". That's a total fucking corrupt enterprise of worthless fucking Marxist grifters. That impetus and development in hiring and editing staff is terrible for the hobby. It is yet one more weapon and line of attack that the Marxist SJW's are using to attack, infiltrate, corrupt, and destroy the gaming hobby.
So, Pundit is absolutely right and justified in counterattacking the fucking SJW's and their influence throughout the gaming hobby as a whole.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
So the truth doesn't matter, as long as it's your guy doing the lying. Got it.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on April 30, 2022, 03:34:07 PM
Wait, you mean to tell me that some of Pundit's predictions about some books haven't materialized!?
Please do conceptualize my utter amazement.
LOL, the really amazing thing is that he (and many of us that don't do videos), manages to predict as many as he does. Without internal sources or a leaked book.
His batting average would make him a famous medium if he was trying to market himself as such.
What his detractors are obscuring is that he does get soo many things right, without access to the source material...
Because once you know how the addled brains of the SJW work it's not that hard to predict what they'll do. Since he can't really see the future he will get some stuff wrong.
Now please tell me: What is it, is he a mediocre furtune teller or he knows the enemy?
You are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful. Pundit wasn't "predicting" anything, he was talking about a product that had been out for 9 months at the time he made this post:.
(https://img.fae.ro/f14632.png)
>Claims OTHER people are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful.
>Picture posted to back that claim doesn't even show Pundit making the original claims, but rather making clarifications about them, stating (correctly) that either the poster being quoted is lying, or WotC was lying about the stuff Pundit's statements were about, cuz WotC really did make those claims, even if the final product didn't ship with the stuff they claimed it would.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 04:31:41 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 30, 2022, 03:57:16 PM
You are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful. Pundit wasn't "predicting" anything, he was talking about a product that had been out for 9 months at the time he made this post:.
(https://img.fae.ro/f14632.png)
>Claims OTHER people are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful.
>Picture posted to back that claim doesn't even show Pundit making the original claims, but rather making clarifications about them, stating (correctly) that either the poster being quoted is lying, or WotC was lying about the stuff Pundit's statements were about, cuz WotC really did make those claims, even if the final product didn't ship with the stuff they claimed it would.
Tubesock Army's image is a screenshot of a misattributed quote. The original posts are here:
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 10:13:38 AM
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2021, 02:12:26 AM
OK, I haven't seen the video, but as far as I can see, this is a free writeup that someone put on their Google Drive -- and you're calling that a "real" class? That's not even third party published - and commercial published works have classes ranging from the clown to the pest controller to the ghetto fighter and mouseburglar.
But I guess the point is to get all outraged that such a thing could appear anywhere.
Given that this "someone" got their original wheelchair added to official D&D, what makes you think they won't do the same with the update, including the Chronic Fatigue Barbarian? Especially since if they don't now, the SJWs will accuse the WoTC of bigotry?
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186081/#msg1186081
Then he doubled down on this, and specified:
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 04:35:00 PM
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186109/#msg1186109
Is the subject now whether Pundit uses a sensational title and take to get eyes on a video? I will get concerned when "serious journalists" stop doing it x10 the level he does it.
Quote from: oggsmash on April 30, 2022, 05:54:52 PM
Is the subject now whether Pundit uses a sensational title and take to get eyes on a video? I will get concerned when "serious journalists" stop doing it x10 the level he does it.
No, it's not the title that's at issue. His title was *less* sensational than the claims he made in the body of the conversation about Candlekeep and wheelchairs. (That's my second quote.)
Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 05:51:20 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 04:31:41 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 30, 2022, 03:57:16 PM
You are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful. Pundit wasn't "predicting" anything, he was talking about a product that had been out for 9 months at the time he made this post:.
(https://img.fae.ro/f14632.png)
>Claims OTHER people are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful.
>Picture posted to back that claim doesn't even show Pundit making the original claims, but rather making clarifications about them, stating (correctly) that either the poster being quoted is lying, or WotC was lying about the stuff Pundit's statements were about, cuz WotC really did make those claims, even if the final product didn't ship with the stuff they claimed it would.
Tubesock Army's image is a screenshot of a misattributed quote. The original posts are here:
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 10:13:38 AM
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2021, 02:12:26 AM
OK, I haven't seen the video, but as far as I can see, this is a free writeup that someone put on their Google Drive -- and you're calling that a "real" class? That's not even third party published - and commercial published works have classes ranging from the clown to the pest controller to the ghetto fighter and mouseburglar.
But I guess the point is to get all outraged that such a thing could appear anywhere.
Given that this "someone" got their original wheelchair added to official D&D, what makes you think they won't do the same with the update, including the Chronic Fatigue Barbarian? Especially since if they don't now, the SJWs will accuse the WoTC of bigotry?
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186081/#msg1186081
Then he doubled down on this, and specified:
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 04:35:00 PM
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186109/#msg1186109
Yeah, that one's at least a bit more damning, and I can see why some people might take issue with it. But it's mostly hyperbole based on things that I believe people from WotC actually claimed were gonna be in the book (at least about Candlekeep; IDK about "every" dungeon for official D&D), even if they never made it in. Though, I don't recall the details now or which article it was where the claim came up.
I do believe Pundit sometimes exaggerates, but mostly for dramatic effect as part of a larger discussion on his videos at least, and usually based on stuff that people actually said. That the stuff later doesn't always make it into the books is secondary, though, cuz he's obviously speculating based on social media posts and articles before the books come out, rather than the final product.
Granted in this particular post he kept making the claim after the book came out without the wheelchairs, which was an error on his part. But it was a forum post, it's not like he kept making videos about it, and it's not like he's a journalist or has the budget to buy every D&D book just to look for the woke stuff. He's not even a big YouTuber, with barely 5k subscribers.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 08:25:56 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 05:51:20 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 04:31:41 PM
Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 30, 2022, 03:57:16 PM
You are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful. Pundit wasn't "predicting" anything, he was talking about a product that had been out for 9 months at the time he made this post:.
(https://img.fae.ro/f14632.png)
>Claims OTHER people are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful.
>Picture posted to back that claim doesn't even show Pundit making the original claims, but rather making clarifications about them, stating (correctly) that either the poster being quoted is lying, or WotC was lying about the stuff Pundit's statements were about, cuz WotC really did make those claims, even if the final product didn't ship with the stuff they claimed it would.
Tubesock Army's image is a screenshot of a misattributed quote. The original posts are here:
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 10:13:38 AM
Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2021, 02:12:26 AM
OK, I haven't seen the video, but as far as I can see, this is a free writeup that someone put on their Google Drive -- and you're calling that a "real" class? That's not even third party published - and commercial published works have classes ranging from the clown to the pest controller to the ghetto fighter and mouseburglar.
But I guess the point is to get all outraged that such a thing could appear anywhere.
Given that this "someone" got their original wheelchair added to official D&D, what makes you think they won't do the same with the update, including the Chronic Fatigue Barbarian? Especially since if they don't now, the SJWs will accuse the WoTC of bigotry?
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186081/#msg1186081
Then he doubled down on this, and specified:
Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 04:35:00 PM
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.
Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186109/#msg1186109
Yeah, that one's at least a bit more damning, and I can see why some people might take issue with it. But it's mostly hyperbole based on things that I believe people from WotC actually claimed were gonna be in the book (at least about Candlekeep; IDK about "every" dungeon for official D&D), even if they never made it in. Though, I don't recall the details now or which article it was where the claim came up.
I do believe Pundit sometimes exaggerates, but mostly for dramatic effect as part of a larger discussion on his videos at least, and usually based on stuff that people actually said. That the stuff later doesn't always make it into the books is secondary, though, cuz he's obviously speculating based on social media posts and articles before the books come out, rather than the final product.
Granted in this particular post he kept making the claim after the book came out without the wheelchairs, which was an error on his part. But it was a forum post, it's not like he kept making videos about it, and it's not like he's a journalist or has the budget to buy every D&D book just to look for the woke stuff. He's not even a big YouTuber, with barely 5k subscribers.
I do recall it being advertised that from now on the game would include wheel chair bound people but i dont remember well.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 08:25:56 PM
Yeah, that one's at least a bit more damning, and I can see why some people might take issue with it. But it's mostly hyperbole based on things that I believe people from WotC actually claimed were gonna be in the book (at least about Candlekeep; IDK about "every" dungeon for official D&D), even if they never made it in. Though, I don't recall the details now or which article it was where the claim came up.
I do believe Pundit sometimes exaggerates, but mostly for dramatic effect as part of a larger discussion on his videos at least, and usually based on stuff that people actually said. That the stuff later doesn't always make it into the books is secondary, though, cuz he's obviously speculating based on social media posts and articles before the books come out, rather than the final product.
Granted in this particular post he kept making the claim after the book came out without the wheelchairs, which was an error on his part. But it was a forum post, it's not like he kept making videos about it, and it's not like he's a journalist or has the budget to buy every D&D book just to look for the woke stuff. He's not even a big YouTuber, with barely 5k subscribers.
This is what I mean by woke companies baiting people and using outrage marketing ploys. Candlekeep, Radiant Citadel and now this Dragonlance trailer are prime examples. As long as marketing keeps pushing these wretched practices its not going to end anytime soon and WOTC has shown that they will cling tenaciously to marketing mantras unless someone holds a gun to their head. and even then they may take the bullet to further their obsessions. Like the damn five year plan.
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.
Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.
Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base. He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling. It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.
There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.
Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.
(https://i.imgur.com/6rZ8g8R.jpeg)
Also, at least in the quotes just shared, he made false claims about the Candlekeep module itself, not about the marketing for it.
Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 02, 2022, 06:45:37 AM
Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.
This is where I am, mostly, with the setting as well. I played a fair bit of 1e/2e with Dragonlance, and it was always tied to the War of the Lance. Of course we messed around with the official modules. We also ran our own adjacent to the war, but also in the war, campaign....thingy. We rescued Raistlin a couple times too...
If I tried again, first I would probably use the SAGA lore book as my main source of inspiration. Perhaps crack open the 1e campaign setting as well.
But I would hang out in the Age of Despair.
Quote from: Dragonlance SAGA1-300AC: Shadow Years.
Famine and plague spread across the world. Ansalon becomes a land of distrust and hatred. The Knights of Solamnia are widely persecuted for failing to save Krynn from the Cataclysm. The survivors of Thoradin, now in ruins thanks to its proximity to Istar, become known as the cursed Zhakar dwarves. Scholars of Solace and Haven begin the Seeker movement, which leads folk to adopt new gods and new political leadership: the Seeker Theocracy.
Particularly true the earlier you go, detailed records were not well maintained during this time period. Around 40 years in you get to the Dwarfgate War, but even that was sparsely recorded. This is highlighted in the Legends trilogy (which remains one of my favorites).
The Gods are gone, so toss out clerics (fine by me). Technically, Takhisis is doing her thing chasing Berem and snatching up eggs, but remember, this is all still unknown until 33X. At any rate, magic is fairly rare. You have three hooks between the knights, the survivors of Thoradin, and the Seeker movement. If you start literally at year zero you have a post-apocalypse and fantasy mashup opportunity.
There is definitely a campaign somewhere in there.
Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 02:05:28 PM
Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 01:09:00 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.
So, yeah. I own most of the WOTC books. Yes, Pundit has overstated some of the issues and problems in the books. Some of the issues described or proclaimed are not present to the extent feared. However, the SJW's DO have more control and influence in WOTC and gaming in general than ever before, and WOKE fucking elements and influence IS CREEPING INTO THE GAME BOOKS. I'd say it is more or less an element of influence in EVERY WOTC BOOK. It is simply a matter of degree, and an individual's assessment over how meaningful or influential each such element is in each book individually, and as an overall impact of influence in the gaming hobby.
I own the books. I have read them.
I'm glad you acknowledge here the Pundit has overstated things, as have others - but when he has done so in the past, I haven't seen you call him out about it. Mistwell particularly references Candlekeep Mysteries, where Pundit said that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official and that every dungeon in that and all later books were wheelchair accessible. That's not a slight exaggeration - that's completely at odds with what is in the published book, which has no wheelchairs at all and none of the adventures are accessible. One adventure has ramps like the Egyptian pyramids it is modeled on.
I agree that there is some woke influence, but most of it seems very cosmetic - like a gay NPC couple where if ones change a handful of words to switch genders and it would be gone.
Again, if the Combat Wheelchair isn't in Candlekeep it wasn't me who was lying, it was the D&D staff and countless leftist gaming-media sites which all suggested that the wheelchair was now official.
Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2022, 10:54:27 PM
Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.
(https://i.imgur.com/6rZ8g8R.jpeg)
Also, at least in the quotes just shared, he made false claims about the Candlekeep module itself, not about the marketing for it.
I was just repeating false claims made by game "journalists" for the establishment websites or employees of WoTC itself. I guess you're saying I shouldn't believe their own filthy lies?
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 02, 2022, 05:21:55 PM
Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 02:05:28 PM
Mistwell particularly references Candlekeep Mysteries, where Pundit said that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official and that every dungeon in that and all later books were wheelchair accessible. That's not a slight exaggeration - that's completely at odds with what is in the published book, which has no wheelchairs at all and none of the adventures are accessible. One adventure has ramps like the Egyptian pyramids it is modeled on.
I agree that there is some woke influence, but most of it seems very cosmetic - like a gay NPC couple where if ones change a handful of words to switch genders and it would be gone.
Again, if the Combat Wheelchair isn't in Candlekeep it wasn't me who was lying, it was the D&D staff and countless leftist gaming-media sites which all suggested that the wheelchair was now official.
In general, I do think that WotC engages in exaggeration and outrage marketing of its own. However, I see absolutely nothing to back up this specific claim - that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair is official and is in Candlekeep Mysteries. You claim that there are "countless" such claims. If you've got a link or screenshots of any of them, then show it.
Otherwise, no, I don't believe you. When I asked you before, you pointed to the Candlekeep book itself, which has nothing of the sort.
Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM
Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.
Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base. He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling. It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.
There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.
um. sorry no. I was not at any point claiming Pundit is using outrage markeing.
I am saying he falls for WOTCs outrage marketing and gives them exactly what they want. Free Advertising.
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 02, 2022, 05:21:55 PM
Again, if the Combat Wheelchair isn't in Candlekeep it wasn't me who was lying, it was the D&D staff and countless leftist gaming-media sites which all suggested that the wheelchair was now official.
Thats what I've been saying. You were baited like everyone else. They think this is some sort of road to riches because its combined with the other marketing religions that extoll that fans are bad and getting rid of them with the damn 5 year plan is somehow good for business. Im surpeised they didnt roll out 6e long ago. But for once Hasbro may have reigned them in for a time. But looks like WOTC is champing at the bit to get on with failing 5e because it did well and thats blasphemy for WOTC.
At this point Combat Wheelchairs are like Warlords shouting hands back on in 4e, too good to bother with "facts"
Quote from: Omega on May 02, 2022, 07:21:43 PM
Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM
Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.
Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base. He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling. It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.
There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.
um. sorry no. I was not at any point claiming Pundit is using outrage markeing.
I am saying he falls for WOTCs outrage marketing and gives them exactly what they want. Free Advertising.
Technically, Pundit is engaging in outrage marketing as well. He fishes for stupid stuff wokesters say, draws attention to it, often extrapolates upon it and does analysis, makes doomsday predictions, etc. Then shills his products at the end, reminding people not to buy stuff from people who hate them. That's outrage marketing.
Granted, he's just feeding off a cycle that he didn't start, and is just pointing out the nonsense other people got going, exposing it for what it is, and sometimes engaging in hyperbole. So he's not as guilty as them, to the extent "guilt" might be deduced out of this, and he certainly didn't "start it". But that's still technically outrage marketing, cuz it engages with people's sentiments about the whole deal, and helps draw view to his content, cuz outrage marketing can work both ways.
I just don't care when Pundit does it, cuz people in the other side are horrible and he's exposing them, which is a public service in a way. And he stands by his products without making any grandiose claims about them, other than they're "authentic" and well researched, which he backs up with videos going through them, showing people what's actually in the material (which I think speaks for itself), rather than selling vaporware by implying that they bring some sort of great benefit for humanity or "marginalized communities" like people on the other side like to claim about their crap. Which makes them grifters.
But there's nothing wrong with shilling products you actually did create (unlike those Kickstarter that never ship from the opposition), while providing a public service to people that they can take or leave.
Is it "shilling" when it's your own product?
I thought that was called "marketing."
Quote from: Effete on May 03, 2022, 03:11:05 AM
Is it "shilling" when it's your own product?
I thought that was called "marketing."
When I do it it's marketing and when you do it it's "shilling."
Quote from: David Johansen on May 03, 2022, 02:50:49 PM
Quote from: Effete on May 03, 2022, 03:11:05 AM
Is it "shilling" when it's your own product?
I thought that was called "marketing."
When I do it it's marketing and when you do it it's "shilling."
Ah, yes! Modern Business studies from our acclaimed universities. Soon to be debt free. ;)
Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 02, 2022, 06:45:37 AM
Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.
I feel like this is a pretty common thing. I don't know how anyone runs campaigns in Forgotten Realms, for example, because there's no coherence to the setting. There's no real consistency or theme, you just take something from the grab-bag of villains, motivations and plotlines and play mad-libs.
Something like Ravenloft isn't really internally consistent, but at the very least it has a thematic/mood established that can serve as the thread to tie together the game.
Quote from: Zelen on May 03, 2022, 05:55:57 PM
Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 02, 2022, 06:45:37 AM
Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.
I feel like this is a pretty common thing. I don't know how anyone runs campaigns in Forgotten Realms, for example, because there's no coherence to the setting. There's no real consistency or theme, you just take something from the grab-bag of villains, motivations and plotlines and play mad-libs.
Something like Ravenloft isn't really internally consistent, but at the very least it has a thematic/mood established that can serve as the thread to tie together the game.
Ravenloft's mood hasn't been consistent either. Even back with the Domains of Dread, everything changed when you crossed the domain border, including the mood. While everything was some form of horror, that's a broad brush (much like saying "all fantasy").
FR probably isn't so bad if you know enough about the lore and are willing to commit to a particular location and the types of factions and occurrences that are likely to happen there, and build a campaign around it. Problem is that the setting is so huge and convoluted, and many of the details about any given place so unapproachable unless you've actually read a bunch of novels and/or played video games featuring them with enough depth to really know WTF they're really about, that it's hard to know where to start or why you shouldn't just make up your own setting on the fly instead, based on whatever it is the group feels like playing that day. And when you add in all the arbitrary changes the setting has gone through from edition to edition it just makes it worse.
Dragonlance at least had its own feel, though, I suppose it runs into similar problems as to what to actually do with it. But Ravenloft gives you a more solid starting point. Even if every domain has its own feel and tone, at least you know that "horror" is the overarching theme. You can always run into some Vistani as a common constant and a source of news while traveling from place to place. And if all else fails you can always throw some of the common horror creatures found in any given domain at the group, or go with classic horror creatures like zombies, vampires, werewolves and such. Maybe throw in a Frankenstein monster type of thing or some other type of Golem if you have the Guide to the Created, etc.
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 03, 2022, 06:50:56 PM
FR probably isn't so bad if you know enough about the lore and are willing to commit to a particular location and the types of factions and occurrences that are likely to happen there, and build a campaign around it. Problem is that the setting is so huge and convoluted, and many of the details about any given place so unapproachable unless you've actually read a bunch of novels and/or played video games featuring them with enough depth to really know WTF they're really about, that it's hard to know where to start or why you shouldn't just make up your own setting on the fly instead, based on whatever it is the group feels like playing that day. And when you add in all the arbitrary changes the setting has gone through from edition to edition it just makes it worse.
Dragonlance at least had its own feel, though, I suppose it runs into similar problems as to what to actually do with it. But Ravenloft gives you a more solid starting point. Even if every domain has its own feel and tone, at least you know that "horror" is the overarching theme. You can always run into some Vistani as a common constant and a source of news while traveling from place to place. And if all else fails you can always throw some of the common horror creatures found in any given domain at the group, or go with classic horror creatures like zombies, vampires, werewolves and such. Maybe throw in a Frankenstein monster type of thing or some other type of Golem if you have the Guide to the Created, etc.
Greeting!
*Laughing* You know, my friend, once upon a time, there was only the Grey Box Forgotten Realms, and a half dozen FR-series campaign supplements. The Forgotten Realms *at that point*--was an awesome, mysterious, bad-ass campaign setting literally *bursting* with all kinds of campaign potential and wonderful inspiration!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on May 03, 2022, 07:08:45 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 03, 2022, 06:50:56 PM
FR probably isn't so bad if you know enough about the lore and are willing to commit to a particular location and the types of factions and occurrences that are likely to happen there, and build a campaign around it. Problem is that the setting is so huge and convoluted, and many of the details about any given place so unapproachable unless you've actually read a bunch of novels and/or played video games featuring them with enough depth to really know WTF they're really about, that it's hard to know where to start or why you shouldn't just make up your own setting on the fly instead, based on whatever it is the group feels like playing that day. And when you add in all the arbitrary changes the setting has gone through from edition to edition it just makes it worse.
Dragonlance at least had its own feel, though, I suppose it runs into similar problems as to what to actually do with it. But Ravenloft gives you a more solid starting point. Even if every domain has its own feel and tone, at least you know that "horror" is the overarching theme. You can always run into some Vistani as a common constant and a source of news while traveling from place to place. And if all else fails you can always throw some of the common horror creatures found in any given domain at the group, or go with classic horror creatures like zombies, vampires, werewolves and such. Maybe throw in a Frankenstein monster type of thing or some other type of Golem if you have the Guide to the Created, etc.
Greeting!
*Laughing* You know, my friend, once upon a time, there was only the Grey Box Forgotten Realms, and a half dozen FR-series campaign supplements. The Forgotten Realms *at that point*--was an awesome, mysterious, bad-ass campaign setting literally *bursting* with all kinds of campaign potential and wonderful inspiration!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My favorite version of the Forgotten Realms was before the gray box came out. To be more precise, anything before Dragon #110, where Elminister was revealed as a 26th level magic-user, instead of just a sage. The articles in Dragon hinted at a stark world, where isolated patches of civilization stood against the dark tide of savagery and the innumerable monsters of the wilderness. Where heroes often came to dark ends, and mysteries abounded, from lost civilizations, to magic, and strange personal secrets.
My favorite version of the Realms wouldn't have a map except for the starting town, and wouldn't detail endless personages and places. Instead, it would be a sandbox, with tools like random tables and relationship maps for expanding the world. It would have tips for maintaining themes, and for developing recurring elements.
The gray box explained too much. It mapped most of the continent, made a lot of the supposedly alien civilizations thin pastiches, and peppered the land with insanely powerful mages who meddled in everything. And then they expanded on that, until every last corner of the continent and all major figures were known. That stripped away the darkness and mystery and the strong themes of struggling against the wilderness and what inhabits the tangled lands beyond a day's walk, and replaced it with a cosmopolitan kitchen sink with world-rearranging events seemingly happening every other minute.
The gray box isn't bad, but I'd prefer it disassembled. Seeds and ideas and hooks and examples, that can be assembled any which way by a DM, or ignored or replaced, making each a unique creation and preventing the contagion of pre-existing player knowledge.
Quote from: Pat on May 03, 2022, 08:01:36 PM
Quote from: SHARK on May 03, 2022, 07:08:45 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 03, 2022, 06:50:56 PM
FR probably isn't so bad if you know enough about the lore and are willing to commit to a particular location and the types of factions and occurrences that are likely to happen there, and build a campaign around it. Problem is that the setting is so huge and convoluted, and many of the details about any given place so unapproachable unless you've actually read a bunch of novels and/or played video games featuring them with enough depth to really know WTF they're really about, that it's hard to know where to start or why you shouldn't just make up your own setting on the fly instead, based on whatever it is the group feels like playing that day. And when you add in all the arbitrary changes the setting has gone through from edition to edition it just makes it worse.
Dragonlance at least had its own feel, though, I suppose it runs into similar problems as to what to actually do with it. But Ravenloft gives you a more solid starting point. Even if every domain has its own feel and tone, at least you know that "horror" is the overarching theme. You can always run into some Vistani as a common constant and a source of news while traveling from place to place. And if all else fails you can always throw some of the common horror creatures found in any given domain at the group, or go with classic horror creatures like zombies, vampires, werewolves and such. Maybe throw in a Frankenstein monster type of thing or some other type of Golem if you have the Guide to the Created, etc.
Greeting!
*Laughing* You know, my friend, once upon a time, there was only the Grey Box Forgotten Realms, and a half dozen FR-series campaign supplements. The Forgotten Realms *at that point*--was an awesome, mysterious, bad-ass campaign setting literally *bursting* with all kinds of campaign potential and wonderful inspiration!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
My favorite version of the Forgotten Realms was before the gray box came out. To be more precise, anything before Dragon #110, where Elminister was revealed as a 26th level magic-user, instead of just a sage. The articles in Dragon hinted at a stark world, where isolated patches of civilization stood against the dark tide of savagery and the innumerable monsters of the wilderness. Where heroes often came to dark ends, and mysteries abounded, from lost civilizations, to magic, and strange personal secrets.
My favorite version of the Realms wouldn't have a map except for the starting town, and wouldn't detail endless personages and places. Instead, it would be a sandbox, with tools like random tables and relationship maps for expanding the world. It would have tips for maintaining themes, and for developing recurring elements.
The gray box explained too much. It mapped most of the continent, made a lot of the supposedly alien civilizations thin pastiches, and peppered the land with insanely powerful mages who meddled in everything. And then they expanded on that, until every last corner of the continent and all major figures were known. That stripped away the darkness and mystery and the strong themes of struggling against the wilderness and what inhabits the tangled lands beyond a day's walk, and replaced it with a cosmopolitan kitchen sink with world-rearranging events seemingly happening every other minute.
The gray box isn't bad, but I'd prefer it disassembled. Seeds and ideas and hooks and examples, that can be assembled any which way by a DM, or ignored or replaced, making each a unique creation and preventing the contagion of pre-existing player knowledge.
I got into the hobby and started getting my own books around the time that 2e came out (same year or year after IIRC), so I missed the Gray Box or stripped down version train. But that concept of a land with sparse patches of civilization up against a savage wilderness sounds kinda interesting and more like I would prefer. By the time I stumbled into FR they were already well on their way to covering every patch of land with fifty tons of details that didn't really mean much to me, and without an apparent central location I just didn't know what to do with that much information. I just found it overwhelming and all over the place.
Plus the fact that the book I got was Forgotten Realms Adventures probably didn't help, since it was more like an expansion to bring FR into 2e, rather than something that truly laid out what the setting was really about. I think I may have gotten the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 2nd edition at some point, but I was more into other stuff by that point (even trying other games sometimes) or making up my own. That one may have gone to the termites that ate half my books over a decade ago since I haven't seen it in ages, but I'm pretty sure I got it.
It wasn't till I read some of the novels (mostly Dark Elf Trilogy and Icewind Dale) and played Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights that I started to get a real feel for the Realms. And even then, it was hard for me to pinpoint where I'd start a campaign if I wanted to play in the place.
EDIT/PS: Looking back on it, I think that by the time I finally got the FR 2e box was close to the time when a friend of mine got obsessed with Ravenloft and got a bunch of the books, so that's where we ended up playing usually when we played D&D around that time. With splashed of Planescape and elements of Spelljammer in between (though, the SJ stuff came earlier I think).
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 03, 2022, 09:20:02 PM
I got into the hobby and started getting my own books around the time that 2e came out (same year or year after IIRC), so I missed the Gray Box or stripped down version train. But that concept of a land with sparse patches of civilization up against a savage wilderness sounds kinda interesting and more like I would prefer. By the time I stumbled into FR they were already well on their way to covering every patch of land with fifty tons of details that didn't really mean much to me, and without an apparent central location I just didn't know what to do with that much information. I just found it overwhelming and all over the place.
Some of the better examples were the ecologies of the sea lion and gulguthra, the article on the incantatrix, the first couple pages from the mages, and the article on the seven swords. Or that adventure that got reprinted in the gray box, with the abandoned school of magic, the lich, and the red herring conqueror. They all told little stories, which could easily be woven into the background of a campaign, giving it color and a little bit of quirkiness. There was a sense of loss, a passage of time, as magic items went from hand to hand, or lords, heroes, or rogues came to bad ends. The bits were all stand-alone, hinting at a few common things like Myth Drannor or Waterdeep, but without the connective tissue that tied the later Realms into a tight web that was harder to work around, and relying more on suggestion and hints than concrete details.
Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 02, 2022, 06:45:37 AM
Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.
Dragonlance suffers primarily from being more of a novel series than an actual campaign world. The initial run of a dozen modules was literally "play out the events of the novels complete with the novel protagonists as pre-gens."
The entire continent on which the first stories take place has less land mass than India and is maybe a quarter the size of Europe. It's literally just big enough to fit the events of the novel trilogy into it and, by the time the War of the Lance is over, there's almost no further conflicts left to solve (there's Raistlin's attempt to become a god, but that was mostly a sidequest that filled in some history and ended with Caramon and Raistlin basically undoing a bad future such that it never happened).
Which is why they've had to keep trying to reinvent it, but it basically comes down to the same problem all the projects ancillary to Lord of the Rings are less than stellar (even leaving aside the descent into woke)... because they've already hit the high water mark with the best set of heroes and villains the setting was ever going to have in that first trilogy and the initial game modules based on them.
As a result it's just not a great world for adventuring in unless you're replaying the War of the Lance arc.
Hence why I'm critical of the entire concept of "lore." I think it's sufficient to just have various races, classes, and factions that you can use to build plots (it's also nice to have pre-built adventures too, arguably even more important to have those). I don't need millennia of irrelevant bloated lore that just amounts of reciting factoids without adding anything substantial to the actual play experience. Some people equate sheer volume of factoids to quality, I can't stand being around those people, and they're everywhere it seems nowadays. Most companies can't even keep their own lore consistent because there's just too much to keep track of and writer turnover means that tastes and priorities change.
The only franchise I've seen avoid this problem is Transformers because it constantly reboots itself and apparently has a canonical multiverse. I find this the best way to handle IPs because it lets you respect long-time fans by telling them that their favorite iteration of the franchise is still canon in the multiverse, while allowing the writers freedom to do new things unconstrained by previous canon by just inventing a new universe to work with. Tellingly, Disney has switched to this model for its MCU.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 03, 2022, 11:51:40 PM
Dragonlance suffers primarily from being more of a novel series than an actual campaign world. The initial run of a dozen modules was literally "play out the events of the novels complete with the novel protagonists as pre-gens."
Not quite; the original plan seems to have been that the novels were more novelizations of the game events, to the point that DL5
Dragons of Mystery, the first 'sourcebook', included guidelines for 'playing the novels' as opposed to the original modules. But the novels got ahead of the modules, the tail wound up wagging the dog, and the latter half of the series starts diverging in numerous ways. There are major enemies and locations that were introduced for the modules but never even hinted at in the novels, such as the King of the Deep and the Glitterpalace.
That said, you're correct on the core issue--Dragonlance was built as the backdrop for a single story, with a set group of heroes and villains.
Quote
The entire continent on which the first stories take place has less land mass than India and is maybe a quarter the size of Europe. It's literally just big enough to fit the events of the novel trilogy into it and, by the time the War of the Lance is over, there's almost no further conflicts left to solve (there's Raistlin's attempt to become a god, but that was mostly a sidequest that filled in some history and ended with Caramon and Raistlin basically undoing a bad future such that it never happened).
It is telling that when the Fifth Age team made one of the first attempts to really turn Ansalon into a gameable setting, they tripled the map scale.
I'm not seeing anything particularly special about this WotC effort. They try to ruin everything they touch. Why should DL and SJ be any different? It's more like "WotC Finally Got Around to Trying to Ruin Dragonlance, Spelljammer". I guess the DL and SJ fans can take it as a backhanded compliment of some relevance after all. What's next, a woke Boot Hill and Star Frontiers? :P
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 04, 2022, 01:13:29 PM
I'm not seeing anything particularly special about this WotC effort. They try to ruin everything they touch. Why should DL and SJ be any different? It's more like "WotC Finally Got Around to Trying to Ruin Dragonlance, Spelljammer". I guess the DL and SJ fans can take it as a backhanded compliment of some relevance after all. What's next, a woke Boot Hill and Star Frontiers? :P
WotC owns a bunch of old TSR IPs that they're not doing anything with, to the point that they lost the Alternity trademark to a random indie guy who made a retroclone of it. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Dark•Matter, Gamma World, the various settings for Amazing Engine, etc. I don't think they'll ever revisit those for the simple reason that D&D is just more profitable. In the unlikely event they did, then yes they'd insert obnoxious wokeness. Pity.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 04, 2022, 01:56:12 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 04, 2022, 01:13:29 PM
I'm not seeing anything particularly special about this WotC effort. They try to ruin everything they touch. Why should DL and SJ be any different? It's more like "WotC Finally Got Around to Trying to Ruin Dragonlance, Spelljammer". I guess the DL and SJ fans can take it as a backhanded compliment of some relevance after all. What's next, a woke Boot Hill and Star Frontiers? :P
WotC owns a bunch of old TSR IPs that they're not doing anything with, to the point that they lost the Alternity trademark to a random indie guy who made a retroclone of it. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Dark•Matter, Gamma World, the various settings for Amazing Engine, etc. I don't think they'll ever revisit those for the simple reason that D&D is just more profitable. In the unlikely event they did, then yes they'd insert obnoxious wokeness. Pity.
What was the clone of Alternity? I had the core books and it interested me a whole lot reading them, but I have never played.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
It is telling that when the Fifth Age team made one of the first attempts to really turn Ansalon into a gameable setting, they tripled the map scale.
Fifth Age felt kind of like a Final Fantasy iteration - you start out in an area that's relatively safe, then go exploring into areas with more dangerous enemies, track down a dragonlance, take out one of the major dragons and then finally culminate defeating Malystryx. By that time though the novels were so popular they couldn't help but continuously make references to Palin, Goldmoon and others. So you're still constantly in the shadows of the main characters.
Quote from: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 02:49:33 PM
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on May 04, 2022, 01:56:12 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on May 04, 2022, 01:13:29 PM
I'm not seeing anything particularly special about this WotC effort. They try to ruin everything they touch. Why should DL and SJ be any different? It's more like "WotC Finally Got Around to Trying to Ruin Dragonlance, Spelljammer". I guess the DL and SJ fans can take it as a backhanded compliment of some relevance after all. What's next, a woke Boot Hill and Star Frontiers? :P
WotC owns a bunch of old TSR IPs that they're not doing anything with, to the point that they lost the Alternity trademark to a random indie guy who made a retroclone of it. Star Frontiers, Star*Drive, Dark•Matter, Gamma World, the various settings for Amazing Engine, etc. I don't think they'll ever revisit those for the simple reason that D&D is just more profitable. In the unlikely event they did, then yes they'd insert obnoxious wokeness. Pity.
What was the clone of Alternity? I had the core books and it interested me a whole lot reading them, but I have never played.
Much of the Alternity Star*Drive setting came back in D20 Modern's sci-fi book.
Quote from: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 02:49:33 PM
What was the clone of Alternity? I had the core books and it interested me a whole lot reading them, but I have never played.
It wasn't really a clone, more a second edition. One of the guys who worked on it (Richard Baker) was also a designer for the original Alternity.
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 02, 2022, 10:51:55 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 02, 2022, 07:21:43 PM
Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM
Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.
Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base. He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling. It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.
There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.
um. sorry no. I was not at any point claiming Pundit is using outrage markeing.
I am saying he falls for WOTCs outrage marketing and gives them exactly what they want. Free Advertising.
Technically, Pundit is engaging in outrage marketing as well. He fishes for stupid stuff wokesters say, draws attention to it, often extrapolates upon it and does analysis, makes doomsday predictions, etc. Then shills his products at the end, reminding people not to buy stuff from people who hate them. That's outrage marketing.
Granted, he's just feeding off a cycle that he didn't start, and is just pointing out the nonsense other people got going, exposing it for what it is, and sometimes engaging in hyperbole. So he's not as guilty as them, to the extent "guilt" might be deduced out of this, and he certainly didn't "start it". But that's still technically outrage marketing, cuz it engages with people's sentiments about the whole deal, and helps draw view to his content, cuz outrage marketing can work both ways.
I just don't care when Pundit does it, cuz people in the other side are horrible and he's exposing them, which is a public service in a way. And he stands by his products without making any grandiose claims about them, other than they're "authentic" and well researched, which he backs up with videos going through them, showing people what's actually in the material (which I think speaks for itself), rather than selling vaporware by implying that they bring some sort of great benefit for humanity or "marginalized communities" like people on the other side like to claim about their crap. Which makes them grifters.
But there's nothing wrong with shilling products you actually did create (unlike those Kickstarter that never ship from the opposition), while providing a public service to people that they can take or leave.
Correct. Thank you.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
That said, you're correct on the core issue--Dragonlance was built as the backdrop for a single story, with a set group of heroes and villains.
There are about 200 Dragonlance novels that say you are wrong about that.
Quote from: VisionStorm on May 02, 2022, 10:51:55 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 02, 2022, 07:21:43 PM
Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM
Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.
Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base. He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling. It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.
There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.
um. sorry no. I was not at any point claiming Pundit is using outrage markeing.
I am saying he falls for WOTCs outrage marketing and gives them exactly what they want. Free Advertising.
Technically, Pundit is engaging in outrage marketing as well. He fishes for stupid stuff wokesters say, draws attention to it, often extrapolates upon it and does analysis, makes doomsday predictions, etc. Then shills his products at the end, reminding people not to buy stuff from people who hate them. That's outrage marketing.
Granted, he's just feeding off a cycle that he didn't start, and is just pointing out the nonsense other people got going, exposing it for what it is, and sometimes engaging in hyperbole. So he's not as guilty as them, to the extent "guilt" might be deduced out of this, and he certainly didn't "start it". But that's still technically outrage marketing, cuz it engages with people's sentiments about the whole deal, and helps draw view to his content, cuz outrage marketing can work both ways.
Oh I agree hes using this also to shill. But hes not using other peoples outrage to market his products. He's just reacting to WOTCs latest ploy. Then shilling his wares. He gives them free advertising then uses that to advertise his stuff. More like riding on the coattails or parasiting off the parasites.
Quote from: Shasarak on May 04, 2022, 05:17:56 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
That said, you're correct on the core issue--Dragonlance was built as the backdrop for a single story, with a set group of heroes and villains.
There are about 200 Dragonlance novels that say you are wrong about that.
And most of them fill in background or side-stories from the original War of the Lance story or the setting elements designed for it. I know; I've read about half of them. :)
More seriously, I don't disagree that there's been work done stretching Krynn beyond the original parameters--I remain one of the diehards of the original Fifth Age setting. But you can definitely see the seams if you try to do anything with the setting beyond the War of the Lance before things like that, Taladas, and Sovereign Press expanded the options.
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 03, 2022, 11:51:40 PM
Dragonlance suffers primarily from being more of a novel series than an actual campaign world. The initial run of a dozen modules was literally "play out the events of the novels complete with the novel protagonists as pre-gens."
The entire continent on which the first stories take place has less land mass than India and is maybe a quarter the size of Europe. It's literally just big enough to fit the events of the novel trilogy into it and, by the time the War of the Lance is over, there's almost no further conflicts left to solve (there's Raistlin's attempt to become a god, but that was mostly a sidequest that filled in some history and ended with Caramon and Raistlin basically undoing a bad future such that it never happened).
Which is why they've had to keep trying to reinvent it, but it basically comes down to the same problem all the projects ancillary to Lord of the Rings are less than stellar (even leaving aside the descent into woke)... because they've already hit the high water mark with the best set of heroes and villains the setting was ever going to have in that first trilogy and the initial game modules based on them.
As a result it's just not a great world for adventuring in unless you're replaying the War of the Lance arc.
Yup, agreed. I can't argue with that. Even though I loved running DL back in the 2e days.
And in regards to the Lord of the Rings. I love it, use it for inspiration.....but I don't want to play in the setting.
Quote from: migo on May 04, 2022, 03:43:16 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on May 04, 2022, 02:49:33 PM
What was the clone of Alternity? I had the core books and it interested me a whole lot reading them, but I have never played.
It wasn't really a clone, more a second edition. One of the guys who worked on it (Richard Baker) was also a designer for the original Alternity.
name of the game?
It's also named Alternity. They put up some samples of the game back when it was being kickstarted, and I felt that the system they'd come up with was clunkier than the original sadly, and because of copyright they couldn't use any of the setting content from the original, such as the various species that I thought were pretty cool.
Quote from: Valatar on May 05, 2022, 12:09:00 AM
It's also named Alternity. They put up some samples of the game back when it was being kickstarted, and I felt that the system they'd come up with was clunkier than the original sadly, and because of copyright they couldn't use any of the setting content from the original, such as the various species that I thought were pretty cool.
Ah well, thanks for the response. I like the presentation of the original books. How does it play? Original Alternity I mean. It looked to be pretty decent for gritty-ish sci fi. I just have no idea how that dice system plays out on a table over a campaign. I think at this point the game group is settled on SW, but I can dream about giving it a whirl for a "guest game" one weekend.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
Quote from: Chris24601 on May 03, 2022, 11:51:40 PM
Dragonlance suffers primarily from being more of a novel series than an actual campaign world. The initial run of a dozen modules was literally "play out the events of the novels complete with the novel protagonists as pre-gens."
Not quite; the original plan seems to have been that the novels were more novelizations of the game events, to the point that DL5 Dragons of Mystery, the first 'sourcebook', included guidelines for 'playing the novels' as opposed to the original modules. But the novels got ahead of the modules, the tail wound up wagging the dog, and the latter half of the series starts diverging in numerous ways. There are major enemies and locations that were introduced for the modules but never even hinted at in the novels, such as the King of the Deep and the Glitterpalace.
Y'all both got it wrong. 8)
DL01 takes place mostly before the books start.
DL02 swings between some events in the book and some events not. Not written by Hickman
DL03 again is mostly off book stuff.
DL04 ditto and by Hickman and someone else.
DL05 is a setting book rather than a full on module and not by Hickman
DL06 is another off book event and not by Hickman
DL07 ditto and not by Hickman
DL08 ditto
DL09 ditto and not by Hickman
DL10 ditto
DL11 a wargame
DL12 another off book one. And not by W&H
DL13 ditto
DL14 ditto and another not by Hickman
Predominantly the modules are about the things that the characters mention as happening but never happened in the books mostly. And this was commented on very early on in Dragon and at conventions. The modules in not way "play the books" they instead play the stuff happening offscreen mostly. Not 100% but at a glance its like 75 to 90% offscreen events.
Think of the modules more as interlocking with the books. It makes the comments in the book make alot more sense. At other points the module fleshes out events in the book. Like I believe the whole Pax Tharkas adventure.
I sure did not recall other authors writing so many of the modules. And Weiss is not credited once for a module even it seems. 8 of the 14 were by someone else.
Quote from: oggsmash on May 05, 2022, 12:15:39 AMHow does it play? Original Alternity I mean. It looked to be pretty decent for gritty-ish sci fi.
Absolute mess. I so wanted to enjoy Alternity, but it felt like it was never playtested.
No idea why WotC won't reboot Star Frontiers. It's also a mechanical mess, but the races were awesome.
Quote from: David Johansen on May 03, 2022, 02:50:49 PMWhen I do it it's marketing and when you do it it's "shilling."
Bingo!
Quote from: jeff37923 on April 28, 2022, 05:34:26 PMI don't care what happens to the current incarnation of D&D or the rape victims they publish which used to be great adventures and settings of D&D past. The more they death spiral, the better.
Exactly.
WotC destroying EVERY setting from TSR totally works for me. Let them reach new heights of woketard!
The old books still exist. The PDFs are always floating around somewhere.
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 02:29:30 PMCopyright laws are largely bullshit and exist mostly to benefit corporations with enough money to enforce them rather than actual creators, making any defense of them defacto defense of corporations, unless you're actually defending a penniless artist having their material stolen or abused.
The main problem with copyright laws is the length of time thanks to Disney. If copyright was limited to 50 years, almost all of the issues with copyright would vanish.
Quote from: Spinachcat on May 05, 2022, 07:50:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on May 05, 2022, 12:15:39 AMHow does it play? Original Alternity I mean. It looked to be pretty decent for gritty-ish sci fi.
Absolute mess. I so wanted to enjoy Alternity, but it felt like it was never playtested.
No idea why WotC won't reboot Star Frontiers. It's also a mechanical mess, but the races were awesome.
d20 Future (and its web enhancements, if you can find them on wayback machine) included a very brief mention of the
Star Frontiers setting, here named "Star Law", as well as conversions of some of the races to the
d20 Modern rules. Back in 2004 thereabouts. WotC hasn't done anything with it since then and abruptly ceased support for
d20 Modern when they launched 4e.
Current WotC doesn't seem to be interested in producing anything that won't make tons of money. They're more popular now than they've ever been but their product output compared to the third edition days and earlier is tiny. They have tons of IPs that they could monetize but they're not.
Quote from: Spinachcat on May 05, 2022, 08:09:02 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on April 27, 2022, 02:29:30 PMCopyright laws are largely bullshit and exist mostly to benefit corporations with enough money to enforce them rather than actual creators, making any defense of them defacto defense of corporations, unless you're actually defending a penniless artist having their material stolen or abused.
The main problem with copyright laws is the length of time thanks to Disney. If copyright was limited to 50 years, almost all of the issues with copyright would vanish.
Totally. Although in the case of volatile media like video games then I would cut this by half.
Quote from: Shasarak on May 04, 2022, 05:17:56 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
That said, you're correct on the core issue--Dragonlance was built as the backdrop for a single story, with a set group of heroes and villains.
There are about 200 Dragonlance novels that say you are wrong about that.
And apart from the original trilogy they're all garbage.
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 05, 2022, 08:46:56 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on May 04, 2022, 05:17:56 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
That said, you're correct on the core issue--Dragonlance was built as the backdrop for a single story, with a set group of heroes and villains.
There are about 200 Dragonlance novels that say you are wrong about that.
And apart from the original trilogy they're all garbage.
I see you have heard of the Pareto principle.
Quote from: Spinachcat on May 05, 2022, 07:50:35 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on May 05, 2022, 12:15:39 AMHow does it play? Original Alternity I mean. It looked to be pretty decent for gritty-ish sci fi.
Absolute mess. I so wanted to enjoy Alternity, but it felt like it was never playtested.
No idea why WotC won't reboot Star Frontiers. It's also a mechanical mess, but the races were awesome.
That....was the other thing I got the vibe about...was this play tested for all the sorts of things Players like to do or try. I only remember Star Frontiers from the box set, and I remember percentile dice for combat and skills, past that It has been a looong time since I played that.
I played in a Star Frontiers campaign a couple years ago and played a Knight Hawks campaign more recently.
What WotC should do is compile it and put out an omnibus. I guess you could colorize the art, I wouldn't, but if you can't get Parkinson and Elmore please don't use any of these crappy new guys.
I'd probably tweak the rules. Of course, I'd tweak the rules, I can't help myself, I'm a sick, sick man. Okay so each skill will now have one rating with a 1/2 stat + 10/rank base. The subskills / tasks will now be modifiers. Taking damage over 1/2 current Stamina from a single shot is now incapacitating. As is it's too much of a hit point grind followed by sudden and instant death. There will be rules for military vehicles and powered armour but they will take a similar format to the civilian vehicles rather than using the Tanks Again and Tanks A Lot articles from Dragon which WotC probably doesn't have the rights to anyhow.
I think that's about it. If you needed to bulk up the page count I'd put in all the adventures and any setting and race information from Zebulon's guide. But the core thing is to realize it's a decent enough game and not pollute it with any newfangled fifth edition D&D crap.
Quote from: RPGPundit on May 05, 2022, 08:46:56 PM
Quote from: Shasarak on May 04, 2022, 05:17:56 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on May 04, 2022, 11:07:48 AM
That said, you're correct on the core issue--Dragonlance was built as the backdrop for a single story, with a set group of heroes and villains.
There are about 200 Dragonlance novels that say you are wrong about that.
And apart from the original trilogy they're all garbage.
Not really. The Time of the Twins sequel is actually not bad really.
A few of the anthologies arent bad either. Very hit or miss from the ones I saw or had. Especially the TNG set of anthologies.
But the further out it gets the worse it feels. I have some of the Huma set but have never gotten around to reading. One book from the after chaos event was ok, if very disjointed and abrupt. The rest was unimpressed with more and more.
The first 3 books actually suffer for their module tie ins as if you never got the modules you are missing out on while chunks of story they are referring to.
Look on the bright side, at least they're not trying to reboot/relaunch Buck Rogers.
Well, I'd love to see XXVc. back in print. I mean, Buck Rogers barely appears in it and it's a pulpy, transhumanist, hard sf setting. There are telepathic cats in one of the modules and the terraforming timelines are pretty ambitious but otherwise it's a neat setting. Mechanically it's the cleanest and most functional iteration of AD&D 2e and works fairly well for the game.
I only got to run it once or twice and the best memory is a character fleeing through an apartment block from a red headed girl with her hair in curls screaming, "My very own space hero! I'm gonna love him and hug him and keep him forever!" And you thought C'thulhu was scary.
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2022, 08:36:56 AM
Look on the bright side, at least they're not trying to reboot/relaunch Buck Rogers.
re-relaunch.
Flint may not have been exactly a great designer but he stayed more true to the source than Loraine's version did. And because he liked RPGs rather than to skim more money from TSR.
Quote from: Omega on May 09, 2022, 04:15:15 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2022, 08:36:56 AM
Look on the bright side, at least they're not trying to reboot/relaunch Buck Rogers.
re-relaunch.
Flint may not have been exactly a great designer but he stayed more true to the source than Loraine's version did. And because he liked RPGs rather than to skim more money from TSR.
What version of Buck Rogers is Flint's?
Quote from: GeekyBugle on May 09, 2022, 10:37:24 PM
Quote from: Omega on May 09, 2022, 04:15:15 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on May 06, 2022, 08:36:56 AM
Look on the bright side, at least they're not trying to reboot/relaunch Buck Rogers.
re-relaunch.
Flint may not have been exactly a great designer but he stayed more true to the source than Loraine's version did. And because he liked RPGs rather than to skim more money from TSR.
What version of Buck Rogers is Flint's?
I was pretty sure it was High-Adventure Cliffhangers. But I am not finding any infor indicating he had a hand in it now. So guess not.