Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 04:31:41 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 30, 2022, 03:57:16 PM
You are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful. Pundit wasn't "predicting" anything, he was talking about a product that had been out for 9 months at the time he made this post:.

>Claims OTHER people are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful.
>Picture posted to back that claim doesn't even show Pundit making the original claims, but rather making clarifications about them, stating (correctly) that either the poster being quoted is lying, or WotC was lying about the stuff Pundit's statements were about, cuz WotC really did make those claims, even if the final product didn't ship with the stuff they claimed it would.

Tubesock Army's image is a screenshot of a misattributed quote. The original posts are here:

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 10:13:38 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2021, 02:12:26 AM
OK, I haven't seen the video, but as far as I can see, this is a free writeup that someone put on their Google Drive -- and you're calling that a "real" class? That's not even third party published - and commercial published works have classes ranging from the clown to the pest controller to the ghetto fighter and mouseburglar.

But I guess the point is to get all outraged that such a thing could appear anywhere.

Given that this "someone" got their original wheelchair added to official D&D, what makes you think they won't do the same with the update, including the Chronic Fatigue Barbarian? Especially since if they don't now, the SJWs will accuse the WoTC of bigotry?

Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186081/#msg1186081

Then he doubled down on this, and specified:

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 04:35:00 PM
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186109/#msg1186109

   Is the subject now whether Pundit uses a sensational title and take to get eyes on a video?  I will get concerned when "serious journalists" stop doing it x10 the level he does it.

Quote from: oggsmash on April 30, 2022, 05:54:52 PM
   Is the subject now whether Pundit uses a sensational title and take to get eyes on a video?  I will get concerned when "serious journalists" stop doing it x10 the level he does it.

No, it's not the title that's at issue. His title was *less* sensational than the claims he made in the body of the conversation about Candlekeep and wheelchairs. (That's my second quote.)

Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 05:51:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 04:31:41 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 30, 2022, 03:57:16 PM
You are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful. Pundit wasn't "predicting" anything, he was talking about a product that had been out for 9 months at the time he made this post:.

>Claims OTHER people are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful.
>Picture posted to back that claim doesn't even show Pundit making the original claims, but rather making clarifications about them, stating (correctly) that either the poster being quoted is lying, or WotC was lying about the stuff Pundit's statements were about, cuz WotC really did make those claims, even if the final product didn't ship with the stuff they claimed it would.

Tubesock Army's image is a screenshot of a misattributed quote. The original posts are here:

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 10:13:38 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2021, 02:12:26 AM
OK, I haven't seen the video, but as far as I can see, this is a free writeup that someone put on their Google Drive -- and you're calling that a "real" class? That's not even third party published - and commercial published works have classes ranging from the clown to the pest controller to the ghetto fighter and mouseburglar.

But I guess the point is to get all outraged that such a thing could appear anywhere.

Given that this "someone" got their original wheelchair added to official D&D, what makes you think they won't do the same with the update, including the Chronic Fatigue Barbarian? Especially since if they don't now, the SJWs will accuse the WoTC of bigotry?

Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186081/#msg1186081

Then he doubled down on this, and specified:

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 04:35:00 PM
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186109/#msg1186109

Yeah, that one's at least a bit more damning, and I can see why some people might take issue with it. But it's mostly hyperbole based on things that I believe people from WotC actually claimed were gonna be in the book (at least about Candlekeep; IDK about "every" dungeon for official D&D), even if they never made it in. Though, I don't recall the details now or which article it was where the claim came up.

I do believe Pundit sometimes exaggerates, but mostly for dramatic effect as part of a larger discussion on his videos at least, and usually based on stuff that people actually said. That the stuff later doesn't always make it into the books is secondary, though, cuz he's obviously speculating based on social media posts and articles before the books come out, rather than the final product.

Granted in this particular post he kept making the claim after the book came out without the wheelchairs, which was an error on his part. But it was a forum post, it's not like he kept making videos about it, and it's not like he's a journalist or has the budget to buy every D&D book just to look for the woke stuff. He's not even a big YouTuber, with barely 5k subscribers.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 08:25:56 PM

Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 05:51:20 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 04:31:41 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on April 30, 2022, 03:57:16 PM
You are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful. Pundit wasn't "predicting" anything, he was talking about a product that had been out for 9 months at the time he made this post:.

>Claims OTHER people are either mistaken or being purposely deceitful.
>Picture posted to back that claim doesn't even show Pundit making the original claims, but rather making clarifications about them, stating (correctly) that either the poster being quoted is lying, or WotC was lying about the stuff Pundit's statements were about, cuz WotC really did make those claims, even if the final product didn't ship with the stuff they claimed it would.

Tubesock Army's image is a screenshot of a misattributed quote. The original posts are here:

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 10:13:38 AM

Quote from: jhkim on September 03, 2021, 02:12:26 AM
OK, I haven't seen the video, but as far as I can see, this is a free writeup that someone put on their Google Drive -- and you're calling that a "real" class? That's not even third party published - and commercial published works have classes ranging from the clown to the pest controller to the ghetto fighter and mouseburglar.

But I guess the point is to get all outraged that such a thing could appear anywhere.

Given that this "someone" got their original wheelchair added to official D&D, what makes you think they won't do the same with the update, including the Chronic Fatigue Barbarian? Especially since if they don't now, the SJWs will accuse the WoTC of bigotry?

Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186081/#msg1186081

Then he doubled down on this, and specified:

Quote from: RPGPundit on September 03, 2021, 04:35:00 PM
The wheelchair is in Candlekeep, and EVERY dungeon for official D&D from Candlekeep onwards has been wheelchair-accessible. Also, every D&D product from candlekeep onward has featured the wheelchair in art.

Source: https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/the-chronic-fatigue-barbarian-is-a-real-not-parody-new-dd-subclass/msg1186109/#msg1186109

Yeah, that one's at least a bit more damning, and I can see why some people might take issue with it. But it's mostly hyperbole based on things that I believe people from WotC actually claimed were gonna be in the book (at least about Candlekeep; IDK about "every" dungeon for official D&D), even if they never made it in. Though, I don't recall the details now or which article it was where the claim came up.

I do believe Pundit sometimes exaggerates, but mostly for dramatic effect as part of a larger discussion on his videos at least, and usually based on stuff that people actually said. That the stuff later doesn't always make it into the books is secondary, though, cuz he's obviously speculating based on social media posts and articles before the books come out, rather than the final product.

Granted in this particular post he kept making the claim after the book came out without the wheelchairs, which was an error on his part. But it was a forum post, it's not like he kept making videos about it, and it's not like he's a journalist or has the budget to buy every D&D book just to look for the woke stuff. He's not even a big YouTuber, with barely 5k subscribers.

I do recall it being advertised that from now on the game would include wheel chair bound people but i dont remember well.

Quote from: VisionStorm on April 30, 2022, 08:25:56 PM
Yeah, that one's at least a bit more damning, and I can see why some people might take issue with it. But it's mostly hyperbole based on things that I believe people from WotC actually claimed were gonna be in the book (at least about Candlekeep; IDK about "every" dungeon for official D&D), even if they never made it in. Though, I don't recall the details now or which article it was where the claim came up.

I do believe Pundit sometimes exaggerates, but mostly for dramatic effect as part of a larger discussion on his videos at least, and usually based on stuff that people actually said. That the stuff later doesn't always make it into the books is secondary, though, cuz he's obviously speculating based on social media posts and articles before the books come out, rather than the final product.

Granted in this particular post he kept making the claim after the book came out without the wheelchairs, which was an error on his part. But it was a forum post, it's not like he kept making videos about it, and it's not like he's a journalist or has the budget to buy every D&D book just to look for the woke stuff. He's not even a big YouTuber, with barely 5k subscribers.

This is what I mean by woke companies baiting people and using outrage marketing ploys. Candlekeep,  Radiant Citadel and now this Dragonlance trailer are prime examples. As long as marketing keeps pushing these wretched practices its not going to end anytime soon and WOTC has shown that they will cling tenaciously to marketing mantras unless someone holds a gun to their head. and even then they may take the bullet to further their obsessions. Like the damn five year plan.

It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.

Which he is using to market his materials to his fan base.  He riles them up with outrage on how WotC is destroying everything and then shifts to the shilling.  It's lucrative enough that he can make a living doing something most would be doing as a hobby.

There's nothing wrong here but it's what is going on.

Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM
...

Whoosh.

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 07:15:55 PM

Quote from: Palleon on May 01, 2022, 06:15:50 PM
...

Whoosh.

Yes, I know.  You're blind to what is really happening and can't see the forest.

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.

Also, at least in the quotes just shared, he made false claims about the Candlekeep module itself, not about the marketing for it.

Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.

Quote from: Slipshot762 on May 02, 2022, 06:45:37 AM
Dragonlance is something I always wanted to like but I don't know what to do with as a DM; even having read a few novels i still don't have a clear picture of krynn day to day life outside of what its like to be part of a travelling band of vagabonds on a quest. Everytime i tried to run it other than attaching players to a unit in an army in the war of the lance, it just came off as forgotten realms with steel coins. I can read and run any setting, it seems, except dragonlance, there is something about it i cannot "get", something i cannot see, i cannot see krynn clearly, i just cannot seem to find a place and insert my own thing w/o it feeling disjointed. It feels like you either do war of the lance or it's vague homebrew with familiar suggestions like kender.

This is where I am, mostly, with the setting as well. I played a fair bit of 1e/2e with Dragonlance, and it was always tied to the War of the Lance. Of course we messed around with the official modules. We also ran our own adjacent to the war, but also in the war, campaign....thingy. We rescued Raistlin a couple times too...

If I tried again, first I would probably use the SAGA lore book as my main source of inspiration. Perhaps crack open the 1e campaign setting as well.

But I would hang out in the Age of Despair.

Quote from: Dragonlance SAGA1-300AC: Shadow Years.
Famine and plague spread across the world. Ansalon becomes a land of distrust and hatred. The Knights of Solamnia are widely persecuted for failing to save Krynn from the Cataclysm. The survivors of Thoradin, now in ruins thanks to its proximity to Istar, become known as the cursed Zhakar dwarves. Scholars of Solace and Haven begin the Seeker movement, which leads folk to adopt new gods and new political leadership: the Seeker Theocracy.

Particularly true the earlier you go, detailed records were not well maintained during this time period. Around 40 years in you get to the Dwarfgate War, but even that was sparsely recorded. This is highlighted in the Legends trilogy (which remains one of my favorites).

The Gods are gone, so toss out clerics (fine by me). Technically, Takhisis is doing her thing chasing Berem and snatching up eggs, but remember, this is all still unknown until 33X. At any rate, magic is fairly rare. You have three hooks between the knights, the survivors of Thoradin, and the Seeker movement. If you start literally at year zero you have a post-apocalypse and fantasy mashup opportunity.

There is definitely a campaign somewhere in there.

Quote from: jhkim on April 30, 2022, 02:05:28 PM

Quote from: SHARK on April 30, 2022, 01:09:00 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on April 29, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
Of course it generates long term disinformation. People here never read the books Pundit posts about, so they never see that a book like Candlekeep isn't full of SJW rhetoric. A few poor souls here actually try to inform people that it turns out that was fake news, but by then everyone is committed to their outrage and they ignore it or defend their prior preconceived notion which Pundit generated with his outrage. So for years they go on to describe Candlekeep as a book which messages woke rhetoric, even though it doesn't. And those who know it doesn't look at them and think they're deeply misinformed, which they are.

So, yeah. I own most of the WOTC books. Yes, Pundit has overstated some of the issues and problems in the books. Some of the issues described or proclaimed are not present to the extent feared. However, the SJW's DO have more control and influence in WOTC and gaming in general than ever before, and WOKE fucking elements and influence IS CREEPING INTO THE GAME BOOKS. I'd say it is more or less an element of influence in EVERY WOTC BOOK. It is simply a matter of degree, and an individual's assessment over how meaningful or influential each such element is in each book individually, and as an overall impact of influence in the gaming hobby.

I own the books. I have read them.

I'm glad you acknowledge here the Pundit has overstated things, as have others - but when he has done so in the past, I haven't seen you call him out about it. Mistwell particularly references Candlekeep Mysteries, where Pundit said that Sara Thompson's combat wheelchair was made official and that every dungeon in that and all later books were wheelchair accessible. That's not a slight exaggeration - that's completely at odds with what is in the published book, which has no wheelchairs at all and none of the adventures are accessible. One adventure has ramps like the Egyptian pyramids it is modeled on.

I agree that there is some woke influence, but most of it seems very cosmetic - like a gay NPC couple where if ones change a handful of words to switch genders and it would be gone.

Again, if the Combat Wheelchair isn't in Candlekeep it wasn't me who was lying, it was the D&D staff and countless leftist gaming-media sites which all suggested that the wheelchair was now official.

Quote from: jhkim on May 01, 2022, 10:54:27 PM

Quote from: Zelen on May 01, 2022, 05:58:06 PM
It's ironic trying to pin "Outrage marketing" label on Pundit when he's literally just talking about the latest outrage bait from WOTC.

Also, at least in the quotes just shared, he made false claims about the Candlekeep module itself, not about the marketing for it.

I was just repeating false claims made by game "journalists" for the establishment websites or employees of WoTC itself.  I guess you're saying I shouldn't believe their own filthy lies?