Alignment being a quantifiable, semi-permanent thing in D&D has always struck me as dumb; some random Drow grocery shopping probably shouldn't be radiating pure evil, unless they're shopping in a Whole Foods.  Arcana Unearthed tossed alignment wholesale and not only did the system not suffer for it, I think it came out a bit ahead in the bargain.  The one and only thing that I think is a positive for the alignment system is Planescape, the cosmology that arose from nine different afterlives is pretty cool.

That being said, I also have no beef with '<insert group here> is actively antagonistic to humans and a threat'.  You wouldn't want to live near a bunch of orcs in the same way you don't want grizzly bears hanging out by your kid's school, they're dangerous and liable to kill people and not overly interested in talking things out.  They don't have to be inherently evil or stupid for that to be the case, just hostile.  Even among humans there are ample cases throughout history where a given group has gone and wiped out another group without even attempting a peaceful resolution, it's still happening today.  It would be even more common in a world where several intelligent species are competing for resources.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 28, 2021, 12:52:26 AM
I tell you what. You play your pretend elf games how you want, and I'll play my pretend elf games how I want.

Agreed and seconded.

The whole thing with Paizo and Wotc removing alignment requires major rewrites of most of the races. Drow in Pathfinder especially in Golarion are not very nice race to put it mildly. The practice Fleshwarping where they take an existing say Elf and change them to what they consider "better and more useful" for the Drow in any case. They simply want to stop having them be evil. Sure go ahead just rewrite the lore for the entire race for Golarion. Sorry as any race that engages in Fleshwarping is not good nor even neutral by any stretch of the imagination.

QuoteIndeed, as you mentioned though, similar terms are found in translation.

Indeed. I mean Pathinder changed race for "ancestry", Agains the Darkmaster to "kin".
I guess ancient Mongolian words can fit any of those three well, or neither.

Also: few corrections about Tolkienian lore from this thread:

QuoteFirst, Tolkien's Elves weren't all light-skinned, only the Vanyar were. They all have Golden hair. Most of you know Haldir, Thranduil, Celeborn, and Galdariel, they were all Vanyar The Teleri had darker skins, and a general tanned appearance. Some of them were also Grey, and were known as the Grey Elves, becuase they were not light or dark, but a combination of both. Some notable Teleri were Elrond's Daughter, a half Teleri, Arwen, and Luthien Tinuviel. The Nolder were the dark elves, actaully the Quenya translation is "Deep Elves". Elrond was part Noldor, Gil-Galad who was slain when defeating Sauron the first time, was also Nolder. Feanor the ancient great king, Feanwe, And Fingolfin, were also Noldor, they had chestnut or dark colored hair, and were not considered "Lily White", although the Noldor did consider themselves the superior among the races of elves.

Well Vanyars were most-light-skinned, but generally all elves, at least all Eldars fits withing light-skinned people, with Teleri being maybe sometimes bit tan.
Neither of elves you mentioned as Vanyars were Vanyars - Haldor was elf of Lorien, which mean he was Sindarin, Silvan elf or maybe descendant of Avari. Thranduil was Sindar, Celeborn was Sindar (grand-nephew of Thingol). Galadriel while she inherited golden-hair of her father, was counted among Noldors - by blood she was 1/4 Vanyar 1/4 Noldor 1/2 Teleri (as her mother Earwena was Teleri). Sindars or Grey Elves have not took their name from being gray but from epesse (honorific name of their leader) - Elwe Singollo - or Elu Thingol in Sindarin language, named that because of light-silver hair - trait of his family among Teleri.


Next ancestry of Arwena and Luthien is only part Telerim. Arwena sort of lacks her clan - as her patrilineal ancestry rises from Tuor - who was man not elf, and Luthien indeed among Sindars.
But Luthien was basically aasimar - half-Sindar, half-angelic spirit, while Arwena oh boi - well she's 1/4 Galadriel who's ancestry we discussed here, then she's 1/4 of Celeborn - full Teleri (Sindar), then Elrond half-elf is son of Earendil half-elf and Elwinga.

So Earendil is son of Tuor (man of house of Hador, but with blood of House of Beor by mother and house of Haleth by grandmother) and Idril (daughter of Turgon - her mother was of Vanyar).
So Elwing parents were Nimloth (Sindar woman and niece to Celeborn) and Dior - first of half-elves who was son of Luthien (her ancestry discussed) and of Beren (man of house of Beor).

So Arwen was wel... house of Hador in patrilineal name (and she later become human after all) and by blood she was all Three (Four including both lines of Teleri) Eldar lines, all three Edain lines and also a Mayar.

Then Noldor were not DARK ELVES. Dark Elves - are Moriquendi - elves that have not seen light of trees - which are a) all Avari (who rejected call of Valar) b) all those lost in travel including mostly Teleri of Sindar and Silvan variety. Also Dark Elf was nickname of Eol, father of Maeglin, brother-in-law of Turgon, famous elven weaponsmith executed for murder of his wife.

Noldors indeed were called by Sindarin - DEEP ELVES, and name Noldor itself mean "Wise Ones" (and is someone spelled as gnomes).
They were of black or auburn hair but still fair skin, with exception of one of Feanor sons that was listed as tanned.

Elrond was part Noldor - but he has blood of all lineages really. Feanor and Finwe indeed were Noldor 200%.

QuoteYou mean the guy who was such an amazing craftsman, that the gods begged him for his greatest creations? And when he turned them down, one of the gods stole them, and then Feanor and his kin went and fucking killed the god to take them back? That ordinary, unprivileged guy?

Feanor may exemplify hubris, but he also exemplifies perfection and privilege.

No not really. Now Feanor was privileged among Noldor but really his gift of craftsmanship was his own, not result of superior education of Noldo royalty (though marriage with daughter of another great smith could helped - and it was sort of morgantic marriage, it was supposedly criticised by some as Feanor's wife was of lower station). But he was also insuferable asshole.

Also you mix the story: Valars begged Feanor for Silmarills only AFTER Melkor killed the trees, and stole the Silmarils (so their begging was futil), and it was not one of begging gods who stole stones, but Melkor. Also Feanor and his kin failed against Melkor, and get their asses handed to them by Melkor each time, till gods get from the west and saved their sorry asses

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 11:52:09 AM

QuoteYou mean the guy who was such an amazing craftsman, that the gods begged him for his greatest creations? And when he turned them down, one of the gods stole them, and then Feanor and his kin went and fucking killed the god to take them back? That ordinary, unprivileged guy?

Feanor may exemplify hubris, but he also exemplifies perfection and privilege.

No not really. Now Feanor was privileged among Noldor but really his gift of craftsmanship was his own, not result of superior education of Noldo royalty (though marriage with daughter of another great smith could helped - and it was sort of morgantic marriage, it was supposedly criticised by some as Feanor's wife was of lower station). But he was also insuferable asshole.

Also you mix the story: Valars begged Feanor for Silmarills only AFTER Melkor killed the trees, and stole the Silmarils (so their begging was futil), and it was not one of begging gods who stole stones, but Melkor. Also Feanor and his kin failed against Melkor, and get their asses handed to them by Melkor each time, till gods get from the west and saved their sorry asses

Almost none of that contradicts anything I said. I never said Feanor's craftsmanship was the result of privilege, though you actually just made a good case that it was (at the education and opportunity level, not the talent level). I also never said when the Valar begged Feanor for his shinies, nor did I say that the gods that begged were the same as the god that stole. You added some useful details, but while my summary was quick and incomplete (as intended), it wasn't incorrect.

Except Morgoth. You're correct about that. I was thinking of Fingolfin hewing off his foot, rather than killing him. That was a major defeat for Sauron's master. And tossing him beyond the walls of night isn't really death either, but that's a flexible concept when applied to gods anyway. And if you want to be really technical, there's the argument that the Valar aren't gods. Though that has more to do with Tolkien's Christian overlay than the polytheistic sources he draws upon.

Quote from: Pat on January 28, 2021, 01:11:02 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 11:52:09 AM

QuoteYou mean the guy who was such an amazing craftsman, that the gods begged him for his greatest creations? And when he turned them down, one of the gods stole them, and then Feanor and his kin went and fucking killed the god to take them back? That ordinary, unprivileged guy?

Feanor may exemplify hubris, but he also exemplifies perfection and privilege.

No not really. Now Feanor was privileged among Noldor but really his gift of craftsmanship was his own, not result of superior education of Noldo royalty (though marriage with daughter of another great smith could helped - and it was sort of morgantic marriage, it was supposedly criticised by some as Feanor's wife was of lower station). But he was also insuferable asshole.

Also you mix the story: Valars begged Feanor for Silmarills only AFTER Melkor killed the trees, and stole the Silmarils (so their begging was futil), and it was not one of begging gods who stole stones, but Melkor. Also Feanor and his kin failed against Melkor, and get their asses handed to them by Melkor each time, till gods get from the west and saved their sorry asses

Almost none of that contradicts anything I said. I never said Feanor's craftsmanship was the result of privilege, though you actually just made a good case that it was (at the education and opportunity level, not the talent level). I also never said when the Valar begged Feanor for his shinies, nor did I say that the gods that begged were the same as the god that stole. You added some useful details, but while my summary was quick and incomplete (as intended), it wasn't incorrect.

Except Morgoth. You're correct about that. I was thinking of Fingolfin hewing off his foot, rather than killing him. That was a major defeat for Sauron's master. And tossing him beyond the walls of night isn't really death either, but that's a flexible concept when applied to gods anyway. And if you want to be really technical, there's the argument that the Valar aren't gods. Though that has more to do with Tolkien's Christian overlay than the polytheistic sources he draws upon.

That's the strangest thing about The Silmarillion. The Valar come across as a typical pantheon, God of War, God of Smithing, Goddess of Nature, but an over-God plopped on top of them, who is more like the God of the Bible. I expect it's Tolkien wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

I'm curious as to what Tolkien himself would have thought of these debates about elves and orcs and racism. Would he have said that there were elves with African or Asian features? Or we he have made elves unique and not really comparable to any human phenotype?

I prefer to sidestep the issue entirely and give my elves unique phenotypes. For example, making them green plant people like Glorantha or hideous fairies wearing glamor like Discworld.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 28, 2021, 01:50:52 PM
That's the strangest thing about The Silmarillion. The Valar come across as a typical pantheon, God of War, God of Smithing, Goddess of Nature, but an over-God plopped on top of them, who is more like the God of the Bible. I expect it's Tolkien wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

  Tolkien more or less admits this in one of the Letters: "[The Valar] are beings of the same order of beauty, power, and majesty as the 'gods' of higher mythology, which can yet be accepted . . . by a mind that believes in the Blessed Trinity."

For D&D it is less about Tolkien and more about how Gary Gygax was racist and saw no problem making species in his games his version of racial stereotypes. Gary saw Tolkien orcs and projected his stereotypes on them even though Tolkien admits they resembled chav stereotypes (white people)

Gary was also born in 1938 and was a progressive liberal for his time.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 28, 2021, 12:52:26 AMI tell you what. You play your pretend elf games how you want, and I'll play my pretend elf games how I want.

Sorry, you must submit to the One True Way. That's just how it is.

Quote from: Valatar on January 28, 2021, 03:11:35 AM
Alignment being a quantifiable, semi-permanent thing in D&D has always struck me as dumb; some random Drow grocery shopping probably shouldn't be radiating pure evil, unless they're shopping in a Whole Foods.

What kind of Drow does their own grocery shopping when there are so many slaves to do it for them?

5e Drow I guess.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 28, 2021, 01:50:52 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 28, 2021, 01:11:02 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 11:52:09 AM

QuoteYou mean the guy who was such an amazing craftsman, that the gods begged him for his greatest creations? And when he turned them down, one of the gods stole them, and then Feanor and his kin went and fucking killed the god to take them back? That ordinary, unprivileged guy?

Feanor may exemplify hubris, but he also exemplifies perfection and privilege.

No not really. Now Feanor was privileged among Noldor but really his gift of craftsmanship was his own, not result of superior education of Noldo royalty (though marriage with daughter of another great smith could helped - and it was sort of morgantic marriage, it was supposedly criticised by some as Feanor's wife was of lower station). But he was also insuferable asshole.

Also you mix the story: Valars begged Feanor for Silmarills only AFTER Melkor killed the trees, and stole the Silmarils (so their begging was futil), and it was not one of begging gods who stole stones, but Melkor. Also Feanor and his kin failed against Melkor, and get their asses handed to them by Melkor each time, till gods get from the west and saved their sorry asses

Almost none of that contradicts anything I said. I never said Feanor's craftsmanship was the result of privilege, though you actually just made a good case that it was (at the education and opportunity level, not the talent level). I also never said when the Valar begged Feanor for his shinies, nor did I say that the gods that begged were the same as the god that stole. You added some useful details, but while my summary was quick and incomplete (as intended), it wasn't incorrect.

Except Morgoth. You're correct about that. I was thinking of Fingolfin hewing off his foot, rather than killing him. That was a major defeat for Sauron's master. And tossing him beyond the walls of night isn't really death either, but that's a flexible concept when applied to gods anyway. And if you want to be really technical, there's the argument that the Valar aren't gods. Though that has more to do with Tolkien's Christian overlay than the polytheistic sources he draws upon.

That's the strangest thing about The Silmarillion. The Valar come across as a typical pantheon, God of War, God of Smithing, Goddess of Nature, but an over-God plopped on top of them, who is more like the God of the Bible. I expect it's Tolkien wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

It's not that dissimilar from Narnia. Both have traditional pagan mythological elements, seen through a Christian lens. Aslan isn't any more blatant than Illuvatar.

Which, when it comes down to it, isn't that different from the medical scribes who wrote down the various Celtic legends, like the Mabinogion or the Irish cycles. The monks adapted them to fit into a Christian worldview, which is why we don't have a good idea what the Celtic creation myths were really like, because the only versions that survived have been modified to fit in with Genesis.

Quote from: Shasarak on January 28, 2021, 02:55:04 PM

Quote from: Valatar on January 28, 2021, 03:11:35 AM
Alignment being a quantifiable, semi-permanent thing in D&D has always struck me as dumb; some random Drow grocery shopping probably shouldn't be radiating pure evil, unless they're shopping in a Whole Foods.

What kind of Drow does their own grocery shopping when there are so many slaves to do it for them?

5e Drow I guess.

Drizzt is more enlightened. He even refuses to shop at Waukeenmart, because some of their products are manufactured in Thayvian bloodshops.

Quote from: Pat on January 28, 2021, 03:23:54 PMDrizzt is more enlightened. He even refuses to shop at Waukeenmart, because some of their products are manufactured in Thayvian bloodshops.

And he wore a mask to protect himself and others, long before the government told him he had to. 

QuoteExcept Morgoth. You're correct about that. I was thinking of Fingolfin hewing off his foot, rather than killing him.

Still too much - Fingolfin "merely" managed to stab Morgoth's foot several times giving him permanent limp.
His feet were hewn off IIRC only after War of Wrath - hands and feet off, rest bound - off into Void.

QuoteAnd tossing him beyond the walls of night isn't really death either, but that's a flexible concept when applied to gods anyway. And if you want to be really technical, there's the argument that the Valar aren't gods. Though that has more to do with Tolkien's Christian overlay than the polytheistic sources he draws upon.

I mean they are. The terms "gods" within Middle-Earth even in published material leads to Valar.
I mean god is flexible term TBH - if English language shifted bit differently - maybe angels would be called gods, while YHWH would be called AllFather or something.
It's not like inherently One God - Christian term.

But generally - death is flexible term in Middle-Earth as Ainur, Elven and Human souls (maybe I should say spirits about Ainur) are all immortal - so always something remains after destruction of body - Men are just doomed/gifted with inevitable physical death, and their souls return to Eru, Elves souls are bound to Arda, but their bodies can be destroyed and needs recorporation - and Ainurs lacks bodies unless they make some for themselves and they are more clothes than true bodies - disposable easily usually - unless you invest too much power in one and get stucked like Melkor, Sauron and Curunir - with their powers vaslty dimnished if body were to be destroyed as they invested power in physical form.

QuoteThat's the strangest thing about The Silmarillion. The Valar come across as a typical pantheon, God of War, God of Smithing, Goddess of Nature, but an over-God plopped on top of them, who is more like the God of the Bible. I expect it's Tolkien wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

That's not that weird. In Christianity you have One God but also angels and saints serving him. In Greek mythology gods are spawns of Titans, and Titans are derived from CHAOS, in wider Indoeuropean mythology - Gods are also often merely semi-divine - I mean Asgardians are cool, but ultimately they are often race of non-aging super-people that still can be killed by another super-beings, Hindu gods are emanation of One Godhead braman, Ahura Mazda is served by powerful yazatas.

In reconstructed IE mythlogy - Skyfather is source of all lesser gods and their masters.

Idea that there is Primordial OverGod beyond lesser gods is... quite common. Valars differs in this aspect they follow rather Christian morality rather than pagan god morality.

QuoteAll of these issues with the term "race" and racial abilities can all be easily solved if D&D just switches back to race-as-class.

Yeah but all people wanting to play elf barbarians, dwarf warlocks, halfling druids and orc wizards will be angry.
And in-verse elf, halfling, orc and dwarf shall be even more race-sterotyped than in 3,5, with all members of the species folowing the same build.

QuoteSomething I've been trying to get them to do for a dozen years no. Just a selection of classes all balanced with one another. You wouldn't even need a spot on the character sheet for "Kin" or "Background" or "Species" or whatever term people think is least offensive at that point in time.

While "race" term certainly offends those snowflakes - making whole species of intelligent humanoid beings to be one class and one archetype will annoy them even more.
As much as blind they can be - they are not THAT blind.

QuoteIn Queen of the Black Coast, Conan's greatest lover in Howard's tales, Bêlit, is described as having "dark eyes", and "rich black hair, black as a Stygian night."

And she was a Shemite.Which were Hyborian-stand in for Semitic people - Arabs, Babylonians, Syrians, Jews.
So it seems Howard was like modern protestant group that are ultra pro-sionistic - Israel yes, black people no.

QuoteWhut... you must be high, very high. Feanor done attacked the Teleri, killing many thousands of them, and took their boats so he could exact his revenge on Melkor. While he was going to Beleriand (Middle Earth), he ditched half his own people who had disagreed with his genocide and left them to die in the ice floes of Northern Middle Earth (This included Galadriel, by the way...). There is no perfection in Genocide.

Higher you climb, lower you fall. Melkor and Mairon were objectively perfect angelic beings, Melkor literally most perfect in creation - and we can see what happened to them.
Feanor was son of a king, which is a privilege even in society of immortal ubermenschen like Noldors were, he was also most crafted craftsman in history of Arda, probably better than literal Archangel of Crafting, Aule. He was privileged, he was perfect, he was powerful, and he went to special Hell (well special Purgatory) for what he've done.

QuoteHe also died at the hands of Gothmog and an entire band of Balrogs. Yes, he killed Melkor, a former Maia, with the help of other Valar, but he died at that hands of the servants of Morgoth. I'd hardly call that privilege.  Many of his own people, and kin, despised him.

Melkor is original name of Morgoth - and he was Vala no Maia, originally in line of power or beyond Manwe, who was his brother in Iluvatar's creation.

QuoteI like to joke that by the time of the Lord of the Rings, the reason the elves all look so wise and decent is because all the stupid and arrogant ones died.

That's not exactly true. Primo Feanor was no stupid elf. He was clearly 30 Int in D&D. But having high Int does not mean having low pride.
Pride and jelaousy put him when he ended. Secundo, in fact only few of elven nobility described in Quenta was well deeply flawed like Feanor, mostly - some of his sons, though not all of them, though all finally succumbed to his curse, and his only grandson like a shadow of his ancestor helped unwillingly bring forth danger in form of Rings of Power that allowed Sauron to become a powerful shadow of his former master.

Besides Elrond was basically a kid in those times, Galadriel according to older lore (later ret-conned by Tolkien) was prominent supporter of Feanor due to her own ambitions, took active part in slaughter in Alaquonde despite being daughter of Teleri princess, and was kinda Noldori warlordess, staying in Middle-Earth so long because of shame. And Glorfindel while noble also was part of exiled Noldors.

QuoteSaruman (greatest among Istari) - falls into evil

Saruman was never greatest among Istari, he was always weaker in terms of raw Maiar power and status than Olorin. Olorin was only being in Middle-Earth in Thrid Age that could take Ring and grasp it from Sauron control even if Sauron was actively trying to stop it - (Galadriela, Elrond and other ME Maiars could maybe do it - but only if hidden and allowed to work with Ring long time in secrecy). And Olorin was appointed to Istari as Varda and Manwe proxy.
Difference is Olorin never build a centre of power (as we know from Sauron and Melkor such deed cen temporarily empower person if that person dwells in their place of power - like Galadriel in Lorien could maybe smack Istari around but ONLY in Lorien).

QuotePride is (obviously) often part of it. There's also a thread of "creation" or "crafting" running through some of it. For example, Aulë (the "smith" Valar, associated with creating/creating) came close to falling when he created the dwarves, although he repented. Sauron was a maia of Aulë. Saruman was also a maia of Aulë. Fëanor was a great smith/craftsman.

TBH clearly antiindutrailist believes of Tolkien caused him to make almost all bad things to be derived even from fleshwarping Melkor or master craftsman Aule. Never nutjob ecoterrorists caused by Yavanna, or grim death cultists caused by Mandos.

QuoteI always had a soft spot for Feanor. In a lot of ways, he's an analogue for Lucifer, the Morning Star. The most perfect of all angels/elves, but not satisfied with his place, and unwilling to bend to higher authorities. A fall is a tragedy in direct proportion to its height.

Most of Tolkien fails-from-grace has this prideful luciferian aspect. Melkor, Feanor, Ar-Pharazon. I think only Sauron follows different pattern - as he was tempted and damned because of his love for rigid order and lawfulness (despite ironically being shapeshifting-sorcerer)

QuoteSo now killing evil people is political in nature?

It always was.

QuoteFair enough, and for my own part I grant the distinction. The essayist Tom Simon wrote a piece I quite like called "The Terminal Orc" where he talks about Tolkien's own difficulties as a Catholic in imagining and portraying a race of thinking beings who were nonetheless wholly irredeemable; you can find the essay at www.bondwine.com.

That's what you get when mixing Catholic narrative, with pagan narrative - where killing enemies because they are enemies is just fine, and also for constantly changing their origin.
In first version when Valars have truly god powers and ability to procreate and were less bound by Catholic angelology - Melkor simply made orcs, but later such act of creations becomes impossible for Valars - hence story about Aule and dwarffathers so obviously story had to be changed. And oh boi.

QuoteThe whole thing with Paizo and Wotc removing alignment requires major rewrites of most of the races. Drow in Pathfinder especially in Golarion are not very nice race to put it mildly. The practice Fleshwarping where they take an existing say Elf and change them to what they consider "better and more useful" for the Drow in any case. They simply want to stop having them be evil. Sure go ahead just rewrite the lore for the entire race for Golarion. Sorry as any race that engages in Fleshwarping is not good nor even neutral by any stretch of the imagination.

Well I think there's this thing that drow is elf corrupted by evil, and drow-symptoms are like disease reflecting this. We see elves turned drows simply by being very evil in D&D, and I think drow that would turn good would return to elfish features. Also they are more purple so xD

QuoteI'm curious as to what Tolkien himself would have thought of these debates about elves and orcs and racism. Would he have said that there were elves with African or Asian features? Or we he have made elves unique and not really comparable to any human phenotype?

Tolkien was rather anti-racist at least in practical sense, not necessarily on level of beliefs about various folk. But he also enjoyed diversity of folk, racial groups are also sort of protected and isolationist in his story - like hobbits and woses which are subraces of Men are . And he definitely have aesthetic preference for Northern folk.

QuoteI prefer to sidestep the issue entirely and give my elves unique phenotypes. For example, making them green plant people like Glorantha or hideous fairies wearing glamor like Discworld.

That's quite neat. But then in Arda - elves are the same species as men, so they cannot differs too much.

QuoteFor D&D it is less about Tolkien and more about how Gary Gygax was racist and saw no problem making species in his games his version of racial stereotypes. Gary saw Tolkien orcs and projected his stereotypes on them even though Tolkien admits they resembled chav stereotypes (white people)

OK, but how are Gygaxian orcs based on racial stereotypes. From what I heard he only added them because of Tolkien fans to D&D (as adding Tolkien stuff was not his idea) - and in 1e they were very Tolkien like - LE race breed as cannon fodder by dark lord, slaves to darkness, more than vicious tribal barbarians.

QuoteWhat kind of Drow does their own grocery shopping when there are so many slaves to do it for them?

5e Drow I guess.

Meanwhile: Drizzt do'Urden and whole cult of Elisstrea: 2e*cough*2e.

Quote from: Pat on January 28, 2021, 03:20:36 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 28, 2021, 01:50:52 PM

Quote from: Pat on January 28, 2021, 01:11:02 PM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on January 28, 2021, 11:52:09 AM

QuoteYou mean the guy who was such an amazing craftsman, that the gods begged him for his greatest creations? And when he turned them down, one of the gods stole them, and then Feanor and his kin went and fucking killed the god to take them back? That ordinary, unprivileged guy?

Feanor may exemplify hubris, but he also exemplifies perfection and privilege.

No not really. Now Feanor was privileged among Noldor but really his gift of craftsmanship was his own, not result of superior education of Noldo royalty (though marriage with daughter of another great smith could helped - and it was sort of morgantic marriage, it was supposedly criticised by some as Feanor's wife was of lower station). But he was also insuferable asshole.

Also you mix the story: Valars begged Feanor for Silmarills only AFTER Melkor killed the trees, and stole the Silmarils (so their begging was futil), and it was not one of begging gods who stole stones, but Melkor. Also Feanor and his kin failed against Melkor, and get their asses handed to them by Melkor each time, till gods get from the west and saved their sorry asses

Almost none of that contradicts anything I said. I never said Feanor's craftsmanship was the result of privilege, though you actually just made a good case that it was (at the education and opportunity level, not the talent level). I also never said when the Valar begged Feanor for his shinies, nor did I say that the gods that begged were the same as the god that stole. You added some useful details, but while my summary was quick and incomplete (as intended), it wasn't incorrect.

Except Morgoth. You're correct about that. I was thinking of Fingolfin hewing off his foot, rather than killing him. That was a major defeat for Sauron's master. And tossing him beyond the walls of night isn't really death either, but that's a flexible concept when applied to gods anyway. And if you want to be really technical, there's the argument that the Valar aren't gods. Though that has more to do with Tolkien's Christian overlay than the polytheistic sources he draws upon.

That's the strangest thing about The Silmarillion. The Valar come across as a typical pantheon, God of War, God of Smithing, Goddess of Nature, but an over-God plopped on top of them, who is more like the God of the Bible. I expect it's Tolkien wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

It's not that dissimilar from Narnia. Both have traditional pagan mythological elements, seen through a Christian lens. Aslan isn't any more blatant than Illuvatar.

Which, when it comes down to it, isn't that different from the medical scribes who wrote down the various Celtic legends, like the Mabinogion or the Irish cycles. The monks adapted them to fit into a Christian worldview, which is why we don't have a good idea what the Celtic creation myths were really like, because the only versions that survived have been modified to fit in with Genesis.

I thought Aslan was the Narnian version of Jesus, and the "Emperor Beyond the Sea" was what they called God.