Quote from: Rhedyn on January 26, 2021, 05:32:52 PM
When I make up settings, I stopped using the term race. I use the term "peoples" for fantasy races and "species" for sci-fi races. It's a fairly charged term and it is only getting more charged as time goes on.

The recent game Against the Darkmaster did the same thing, using the term "Kin". I'm mostly sympathetic to the impulse, but I have to admit I generally think it's only a stopgap. When you change a term because an old term has accumulated too many negative connotations, all that happens is that the new term, if you use it the same way, ends up taking on the same connotations.

I've seen it happen in my own lifetime as the term "retarded" (which was originally used only in the sense of someone's development being delayed, the literal meaning of the word) became an insult, whereupon popular usage changed to "disabled", and then "challenged", then "differently-abled", then "exceptionalities", and all of them only became insults themselves in turn. (And each more rapidly than the last.)

The plain and simple truth is, we can't prevent one group using language to slur another, outlawing specific slurs only generates fresh slurs, and someone willing to hear a slur in a neutral term won't ever be persuaded it's not meant that way. About the only tactic I've seen that is of any use is to flatly and completely ignore such complaints when it's obvious they're in bad faith.

Well, YEAH.

The peaceful, indigenous players have to be saved from the fascist, colonist players. Frickin "Old-School, neck beard Trolls" only want to ruin "RPG Culture" with their syncophantic worship of that racist Lich, Gary Gygax.

D&D is more than races and classes. It's an opportunity to tell beautiful stories about race/gender-neutral heroes combating their disabilities in a harsh fantasy world. It's about the greater family of players and their characters unlimited by the systematic oppression of race, class and alignment.

Get a grip, dude. The OSR is a massive Trollcave that hinders the greater RPG Community.

Quote from: Stephen Tannhauser on January 26, 2021, 06:09:27 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on January 26, 2021, 05:32:52 PM
When I make up settings, I stopped using the term race. I use the term "peoples" for fantasy races and "species" for sci-fi races. It's a fairly charged term and it is only getting more charged as time goes on.

The recent game Against the Darkmaster did the same thing, using the term "Kin". I'm mostly sympathetic to the impulse, but I have to admit I generally think it's only a stopgap. When you change a term because an old term has accumulated too many negative connotations, all that happens is that the new term, if you use it the same way, ends up taking on the same connotations.

I've seen it happen in my own lifetime as the term "retarded" (which was originally used only in the sense of someone's development being delayed, the literal meaning of the word) became an insult, whereupon popular usage changed to "disabled", and then "challenged", then "differently-abled", then "exceptionalities", and all of them only became insults themselves in turn. (And each more rapidly than the last.)

The plain and simple truth is, we can't prevent one group using language to slur another, outlawing specific slurs only generates fresh slurs, and someone willing to hear a slur in a neutral term won't ever be persuaded it's not meant that way. About the only tactic I've seen that is of any use is to flatly and completely ignore such complaints when it's obvious they're in bad faith.

I think it is less of same problem here because the people charging it through use are still using the same word. The difference between orcs and humans is not related to the real life differences between people of different melanin concentration. So barring the actual word, there is no transfer of meaning.

Quote from: Brad on January 26, 2021, 05:51:45 PM
When I play D&D, I automatically consider anyone who goes outside of established tropes as a troublemaker. I am right 99% of the time.

To be fair to the tropes, doing the exact opposite of a Trope (ex. the Big Guy is actually a softy who's good at repairing things) is also a trope.

Heck, TSR/WotC has made serious bank on Drzzt... whose whole schtick was breaking the Drow stereotypes (and thus became his own stereotype).

Rule number two of TVTropes (rule one is that the site will ruin your life) is that Tropes are just tools. Its how you use, ignore or abuse them that matters to the end result.

Quote from: Theory of Games on January 26, 2021, 07:15:26 PM
Well, YEAH.

The peaceful, indigenous players have to be saved from the fascist, colonist players. Frickin "Old-School, neck beard Trolls" only want to ruin "RPG Culture" with their syncophantic worship of that racist Lich, Gary Gygax.

D&D is more than races and classes. It's an opportunity to tell beautiful stories about race/gender-neutral heroes combating their disabilities in a harsh fantasy world. It's about the greater family of players and their characters unlimited by the systematic oppression of race, class and alignment.

Get a grip, dude. The OSR is a massive Trollcave that hinders the greater RPG Community.

Cannot tell if serious or troll or both...

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 26, 2021, 07:37:56 PM
To be fair to the tropes, doing the exact opposite of a Trope (ex. the Big Guy is actually a softy who's good at repairing things) is also a trope.

Heck, TSR/WotC has made serious bank on Drzzt... whose whole schtick was breaking the Drow stereotypes (and thus became his own stereotype).

Rule number two of TVTropes (rule one is that the site will ruin your life) is that Tropes are just tools. Its how you use, ignore or abuse them that matters to the end result.

No argument, but you and I both know the kind of people who want to play orcs wearing top hats and powdered wigs are fucking jackasses and not trying to actually play any sort of original, challenging role.

Quote from: Brad on January 26, 2021, 08:32:03 PM
No argument, but you and I both know the kind of people who want to play orcs wearing top hats and powdered wigs are fucking jackasses and not trying to actually play any sort of original, challenging role.

Yeah, I can definitely see it.

Honestly though, my problem has generally been the opposite. The most obnoxious kept making orcs who were extra scarred and ugly and aggressive and started fights the PCs couldn't win with his constant misbehavior justified by "I'm playing an Orc... what do you expect?" (note that my experience with this was mostly in Palladium Fantasy where orcs have always been a playable species). Or the guy who played a warforged like it was an HK-47 assassin droid (see Knights of the Old Republic) complete with a secret mission of betraying the entire realm the PCs fought for by sending intelligence to his true masters in the enemy empire.

I'd gladly take the orc in a top hat over either of those in terms of being disruptive... especially if they could actually do it with style or at least otherwise behave like a cooperative member of an adventuring party.

Quote from: Rhedyn on January 26, 2021, 05:32:52 PM
When I make up settings, I stopped using the term race. I use the term "peoples" for fantasy races and "species" for sci-fi races. It's a fairly charged term and it is only getting more charged as time goes on.

*ratchet sounds*

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 26, 2021, 09:05:29 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 26, 2021, 08:32:03 PM
No argument, but you and I both know the kind of people who want to play orcs wearing top hats and powdered wigs are fucking jackasses and not trying to actually play any sort of original, challenging role.

Yeah, I can definitely see it.

Honestly though, my problem has generally been the opposite. The most obnoxious kept making orcs who were extra scarred and ugly and aggressive and started fights the PCs couldn't win with his constant misbehavior justified by "I'm playing an Orc... what do you expect?" (note that my experience with this was mostly in Palladium Fantasy where orcs have always been a playable species). Or the guy who played a warforged like it was an HK-47 assassin droid (see Knights of the Old Republic) complete with a secret mission of betraying the entire realm the PCs fought for by sending intelligence to his true masters in the enemy empire.

I'd gladly take the orc in a top hat over either of those in terms of being disruptive... especially if they could actually do it with style or at least otherwise behave like a cooperative member of an adventuring party.

Emphasis added. This is the most important thing.

Now that the drow are being made progressively white... sooner or later this will once again come full circle and WOTC will be accused of whitewashing the drow and erasing their rich and obviously oppweseded black culture. Shame on you WOTC.

Quote from: RandyB on January 26, 2021, 10:02:26 PM
Emphasis added. This is the most important thing.

This just circled back to ye olde "some players just go out of their way to be assholes". So I'll say it again: when a new player starts off with a ridiculous concept, I immediately think they're just trying to be disruptive. People showing up with ten pages of backstory for a game they haven't even played yet: red flag. Same with all sorts of other crap like getting annoyed if you make them roll stats, won't let them use pregens, or refuse to allow some weird ability they found on an internet messageboard. Gigantic warning sign: insisting on playing chaotic-neutral no matter the character concept.

At this point in my life I have a limited amount of time to spend on gaming so I won't even entertain a whiff of this sort of horseshit. RPGs are about killing orcs and stealing their stuff, they're not about exploring what it means to be a transsexual lesbian elf or whatever the fuck the last weirdo I played with tried to pull out of their ass. No thanks.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 26, 2021, 09:05:29 PM

Quote from: Brad on January 26, 2021, 08:32:03 PM
No argument, but you and I both know the kind of people who want to play orcs wearing top hats and powdered wigs are fucking jackasses and not trying to actually play any sort of original, challenging role.

Yeah, I can definitely see it.

Honestly though, my problem has generally been the opposite. The most obnoxious kept making orcs who were extra scarred and ugly and aggressive and started fights the PCs couldn't win with his constant misbehavior justified by "I'm playing an Orc... what do you expect?" (note that my experience with this was mostly in Palladium Fantasy where orcs have always been a playable species). Or the guy who played a warforged like it was an HK-47 assassin droid (see Knights of the Old Republic) complete with a secret mission of betraying the entire realm the PCs fought for by sending intelligence to his true masters in the enemy empire.

I'd gladly take the orc in a top hat over either of those in terms of being disruptive... especially if they could actually do it with style or at least otherwise behave like a cooperative member of an adventuring party.

My experience is similar to Chris24601. I haven't played Palladium Fantasy - but in games where orc PCs are possible, I've seen more problems with using an orc PC as an excuse to act like a jerk.

More broadly on the topic, I don't have a problem with orc in D&D -- but I also don't have a problem with games/settings where that reinterpret orcs or otherwise have different race themes. For example, Shadowrun has orcs who are part of normal society, while Eberron has orcs and other monsters with their own countries.

Quote from: Brad on January 26, 2021, 11:42:44 AM
What the hell is wrong with just reading a book or playing a game and enjoying it and that's it? Why does EVERYTHING need more meaning beyond "it is entertaining"? These are the same sort of retards who watch 80s movies and don't understand the entire appeal is watching Rambo blow up a dude with an explosive arrow, no matter how ridiculous that might be.

I can enjoy Rambo for it's cheesy ridiculousness -- but it's also blatantly political. When Rambo teams up with mujahideen in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets and free American prisoners, that's about as political as a film gets -- far more pointedly political than modern movies like Captain Marvel or Black Panther, for example.

In practice, I find that people who say Rambo is "just entertainment" will also get upset at Captain Marvel rather than accept it as "just entertainment".

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 26, 2021, 09:49:44 PM

Quote from: Rhedyn on January 26, 2021, 05:32:52 PM
When I make up settings, I stopped using the term race. I use the term "peoples" for fantasy races and "species" for sci-fi races. It's a fairly charged term and it is only getting more charged as time goes on.

*ratchet sounds*

Yeah.  I almost feel sorry for the people who knuckle under and change their language because of the whining of the perpetually offended.  They've been taught that being nice means compromising, and so they treat the complaints of the language police as if they are appeals based on politeness and sensitivity.

But it's all a lie.  The perpetually offend don't want a compromise.  They want submission.  Every complaint is just another exercise of power, another chance to make you grovel.  No amount of giving on your part will ever satisfy them, because it's not about what you are giving, but about their power to make you give.

So the weak and foolish change their language at the behest of the whiners, hoping to prove that they are good and nice people.  Yet all they achieve is to feed the beast, make the demands more strident and ridiculous.  So while I want to feel sorry for them, I can't help but feel angry, because they are making things worse for everyone.

I thought race was a silly word in the 90s.

Every time I taught the game to someone I had to say "they say race, but they really mean species".

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 26, 2021, 11:55:37 PM
Yeah.  I almost feel sorry for the people who knuckle under and change their language because of the whining of the perpetually offended.

To be fair, there are reasons other than SJW appeasement to drop the term "race."

I dropped it for species because I feel its just damned stupid to call an array of options that includes robots, talking animals, embodied spirits, dragons, giants sprites, humanoid insects and humans "races."

Races makes sense if your options are limited to the Middle Earth stans because there actually IS some shared ancestry among the "races of men."

It makes zero sense when your options wouldn't be out of place sharing the Mos Eisley cantina.

Quote from: TJS on January 27, 2021, 12:00:43 AMEvery time I taught the game to someone I had to say "they say race, but they really mean species".

True, but "species" is a very atmosphere-undermining term for a lot of games and settings.