Changing the text of the corebooks, going after "barbarians", & now declaring any kind of setting with other than 2023 Seattle values as "fascist".
#ttrpg #osr

They have been doing this since day one when Wotc bought out TSR:


Johnathan Tweet: 3e-and-the-feel-of-D&D
https://www.enworld.org/threads/3e-and-the-feel-of-d-d.667269/

Tweet openly talks about excising any references of or to real-world mythology when worldbuilding for official 3e D&D.

Making the game entirely self-referential.

Effectively doing a "Year Zero" of D&D lore...

Select quotes:

Quote"...one part of the process I enjoyed was describing the world of D&D in its own terms, rather than referring to real-world history and mythology. When writing roleplaying games, I enjoy helping the player get immersed in the setting, and I always found these references to the real world to be distractions."
...
"...by the time we were working on 3rd Ed, D&D had had such a big impact on fantasy that we basically used D&D as its own source."
...
"We were fortunate that by 2000 D&D had such a strong legacy that it could stand on its own without reference to Earth history or mythology."

Johnathan Tweet: Diversity-in-D&D-third-edition
https://www.enworld.org/threads/diversity-in-d-d-third-edition.668462/

Tweet openly discusses pushing a "diversity and inclusion" agenda for 3e.

Select quotes:

Quote"One way we diverged from the D&D heritage, however, was by making the game art more inclusive."
...
"Luckily for us, Wizards of the Coast had an established culture of egalitarianism, and we were able to update the characters depicted in the game to better reflect contemporary sensibilities."
...
"By the time I was working on 3E, I had been dealing with the pronoun issue for ten years."

Notice how pissed he gets when the WOTC Marketing team of the time insisted that they throw their biggest sales demographic a bone...

Quote"...the marketing team added Regdar, a male fighter, to the mix of iconic characters. We designers weren't thrilled, and as the one who had drawn up the iconic characters I was a little chapped."

And to his utter horror:

Quote"... Regdar proved popular, and if the marketing team was looking for an attractive character to publicize, they got one."

The Hate of the White male fighter knew no limit with the 3e design team:

Monte Cook: Originally Posted by Monte Cook on his now defunct livejournal blog.
https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=16418

Select quotes:

Quote"When I worked at TSR, there was always basically a truism in cover art--the central figure had to be a white male. Most of us actually helping to create the cover art, either by conceiving it or actually creating it, hated that kind of outlook, ..."
...
"...when D&D was bought by WotC and we started working on 3E, we really felt that this was a time when we could break this mold. ..."
...
"It was a thumb to the nose of the old TSR requirement."
...
"At least that was our intention."
...
"...to the credit of a number of people--artists, art directors, designers and editors alike--our disdain for Regdar made its way into a lot of art. If you look closely, Regdar is getting thrashed on most of the early pieces he shows up in. (Look for his ignominious fate on the original DM's Screen, for example.) ..."

WOTC D&D has hated its core sales demographic long before they eagerly bought their first copies of the 3e PHB.

The desire for covers/art without "white men" was a middle finger to the very idea of appealing to their biggest sales demographic that just happened to be white males through no fault of their own.

And they were all down with the white fighter hate...

James Jacobs: ( D&D writer, and current Creative Director for the Pathfinder Adventure Paths.)
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2iha2?Monte-Cook-on-Gender-and-Race-in-DD-Art

Select quote:

Quote"Killing off Captain Whitebread is indeed a time-honored tradition in WotC books. I've written my fair share of art orders for those books, and have made sure to have Regdar get blasted or ruined or murdered a few times myself (such as at the end of Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk). It's a fun little semi-secret D&D tradition!"

I don't know about you, but phrases like "Captain Whitebread", do not exactly come across as terms of endearment!


Wotc's D&D design team has always actively sought to inject their own ideological worldview into the game.

After 23 years none of this should come as a surprise to anyone anymore.

The above should be a reminder that everytime in media you think "hmmmm, there don't seem to be many (or any) white males represented here" it's not a byproduct of some well-meaning inclusivity policy, behind it this is actual hatred and vitriol being expressed verbally or in internal documents at the company concerned.

The more that WotC cleanses itself of adjectives and promotes one race over another by political kommisar the more irrelevant and uncool the game becomes.  Kids want to do things that makes them the rebel and the outsider to help cleave themselves from their family identity to get their own identity as they grow up.  WotC is dead set on becoming the uncool establishment in writing and thought.  Think of how WotC is behaving as reverse Satanic Panic, finding new and unedgy ways to become that 45 year old dad with a gut and trying to get a 12 year old to think they cool by bringing out their yoyo tricks, fondue pots and tab cola. 

This is WotC's Neogi.  According to WotC, Neogi's are space autists with mental power.  Because they can't empathize they are evil?  Look at all of the redacted text that WotC had to do to comply with their political kommisars.  It reads like the redacted Kennedy Assasination report from the FBI.


In reality, Neogi are evil space slavers.  They were the main villains or Spelljammer.  In 5E Wokester edition, they are Evil Spock.  There is no edge, there is nothing cool or edgey about them, they are about as edgey as oatmeal with soy milk.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 09:07:14 PM
In reality, Neogi are evil space slavers.  They were the main villains or Spelljammer.  In 5E Wokester edition, they are Evil Spock.  There is no edge, there is nothing cool or edgey about them, they are about as edgey as oatmeal with soy milk.

I'm... not getting that from the images/descriptions that you posted. In fact, reading through the original version--one of the only D&D products that I own (SpellJammer - Adventures in Space)--has a similar description, though with far more florid text. (It could practically have been written by someone from the UK! )

They seem to remain "evil space slavers" focused as they are on property and the premises of "owned" and "not owned". They are both Lawful Evil etc.

Maybe the rub is in the redacted text? I have no idea what that might include. Do you know what it says? Would it be helpful to me to understand the criticism?

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 25, 2023, 10:16:32 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 09:07:14 PM
In reality, Neogi are evil space slavers.  They were the main villains or Spelljammer.  In 5E Wokester edition, they are Evil Spock.  There is no edge, there is nothing cool or edgey about them, they are about as edgey as oatmeal with soy milk.

I'm... not getting that from the images/descriptions that you posted. In fact, reading through the original version--one of the only D&D products that I own (SpellJammer - Adventures in Space)--has a similar description, though with far more florid text. (It could practically have been written by someone from the UK! )

They seem to remain "evil space slavers" focused as they are on property and the premises of "owned" and "not owned". They are both Lawful Evil etc.

Maybe the rub is in the redacted text? I have no idea what that might include.

There is nothing in the flavor text that states Neogi are slavers.

This is from the Description of Neogi from Spelljammer Adventures in space page 93 from Lorebook of the Void:

Quote"The neogi are a slaving race with an inborn sense of property: everything is either owned or owner, slave or neogi. Even neogis are slaves to other neogis, but these slave-neogis may have their own slaves and eventually establish themselves as fu ll masters in their own right."

In the screenshot I gave you, no where do they say the Neogi owns anyone.  They assimilated Neogi, what joined them to their culture are they equals with full voting rights how can you can you tell from the flavor text, you can't tell, you have no clue.  Meanwhile the original text from the boxed set is very explicit that Neogi are slavers.  In the original unredacted text the neogi are slavers.  Go to Volo's and clear they are slavers.

For example:

QuoteThey invaded the world long ago from a remote location on the Material Plane, abandoning their home to conquer and devour creatures in other realms. To meet their need to navigate great distances, the neogi first dominated and assimilated the umber hulks of another lost world. Then, with these slaves providing the physical labor, the neogi designed and built sleek vessels, some capable of traversing the planes, to carry them to their new frontiers.

To a person in the States, when they see that amount of redacted test, they immediately think something is seriously wrong.  I take it in Britain people are used to having text redacted to that extent and don't question why it was done?

Thank you.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMThere is nothing in the flavor text that states Neogi are slavers.

In one of the edits I dropped the question about whether it was the lack of mentioning "slavery" or "chattel property" or some such.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMThis is from the Description of Neogi from Spelljammer Adventures in space page 93 from Lorebook of the Void:

Your finger slipped. It's page 83.

(Sorry, I'm being an ass-hat here. It really is just one of the few D&D books that I own, and I really was looking at it earlier. Though the PDF that I have doesn't have page numbers on it. *shakes first at DTRPG* O.o )

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMIn the screenshot I gave you, no where do they say the Neogi owns anyone.

Well, they do say that they "dominated and assimilated" Umbral Hulks. That's not specifically calling out slavery, as you note.

With that said, I'm also not sure what from that image is missing. Perhaps there was another section that went into detail on this aspect? I mention only this because that's a pretty sh*t description of a race and if that's the gold standard for D&D I'm glad that I don't bother with it--there's nothing to get your teeth into.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMIn the original unredacted text the neogi are slavers.

Ah, that's exactly what I wanted to learn. Thank you again.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMTo a person in the States, when they see that amount of redacted test, they immediately think something is seriously wrong.  I take it in Britain people are used to having text redacted to that extent and don't question why it was done?

I think that's a tad bit unfair as I did ask what the redacted text said as I otherwise had no frame of reference. I don't know what I don't know.

(Also, I'm a US citizen and very used to having to deal with redacted text--the reasons for it and why it's annoying when it's put in front of you.)

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 25, 2023, 11:13:20 PM
Thank you.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMThere is nothing in the flavor text that states Neogi are slavers.

In one of the edits I dropped the question about whether it was the lack of mentioning "slavery" or "chattel property" or some such.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMThis is from the Description of Neogi from Spelljammer Adventures in space page 93 from Lorebook of the Void:

Your finger slipped. It's page 83.

(Sorry, I'm being an ass-hat here. It really is just one of the few D&D books that I own, and I really was looking at it earlier. Though the PDF that I have doesn't have page numbers on it. *shakes first at DTRPG* O.o )

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMIn the screenshot I gave you, no where do they say the Neogi owns anyone.

Well, they do say that they "dominated and assimilated" Umbral Hulks. That's not specifically calling out slavery, as you note.

With that said, I'm also not sure what from that image is missing. Perhaps there was another section that went into detail on this aspect? I mention only this because that's a pretty sh*t description of a race and if that's the gold standard for D&D I'm glad that I don't bother with it--there's nothing to get your teeth into.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMIn the original unredacted text the neogi are slavers.

Ah, that's exactly what I wanted to learn. Thank you again.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 10:44:58 PMTo a person in the States, when they see that amount of redacted test, they immediately think something is seriously wrong.  I take it in Britain people are used to having text redacted to that extent and don't question why it was done?

I think that's a tad bit unfair as I did ask what the redacted text said as I otherwise had no frame of reference. I don't know what I don't know.

(Also, I'm a US citizen and very used to having to deal with redacted text--the reasons for it and why it's annoying when it's put in front of you.)

it comes down to this:

Leftard WotC Neogi's: Vulcans

TSR Neogi's: Slavers

WotC's new description of Negoi's makes zero sense compared to their past.  If you run older content and read the old books, the Neogi will bear no resemblance in behaviors.  I for one can't wait for what a bunch of weird white leftists come up with that are offensive to themselves and what needs to be erased.  I'm willing to bet the Nazi's will be memory holed before I'm dead.  They won't be taught about, they will be expunged.  Everyone is happy in the new socialist utopia where a black man marries a white woman and gives birth to an asian daughter and a hispanic son with a dog that birth's kittens.

Accelerate WotC!! Faster toward that brick wall!!

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 25, 2023, 10:16:32 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 09:07:14 PM
In reality, Neogi are evil space slavers.  They were the main villains or Spelljammer.  In 5E Wokester edition, they are Evil Spock.  There is no edge, there is nothing cool or edgey about them, they are about as edgey as oatmeal with soy milk.

I'm... not getting that from the images/descriptions that you posted. In fact, reading through the original version--one of the only D&D products that I own (SpellJammer - Adventures in Space)--has a similar description, though with far more florid text. (It could practically have been written by someone from the UK! )

They seem to remain "evil space slavers" focused as they are on property and the premises of "owned" and "not owned". They are both Lawful Evil etc.

Maybe the rub is in the redacted text? I have no idea what that might include. Do you know what it says? Would it be helpful to me to understand the criticism?

But, but, the Neogi have a power called ENSLAVE!  Help help I have been triggered! 

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 11:19:30 PMLeftard WotC Neogi's: Vulcans

TSR Neogi's: Slavers

With the caveat that I am once again not sure what additional text there is, nor what the text is that has been "redacted" (nor who gave it the redacted treatment except insofar as it might pertain to "woke" ideology)?

Why are these inherently exclusive positions? Why, using the above language, can neogi not be "Vulcan Slavers"? If you take a look at the second paragraph in their description from that original book (I have nothing new) then:

Quote from: Spelljammer - Adventures in Space, p. 83The neogi are hated throughout the Know Spheres, and their spiderships are often attacked without giving them the chance for provocation. The reason is that neogi are ruthless slayers and plunderers to the last being, and think nothing of eating their enemies, servants, or fallen comrades. In all the variety of the universe, one truth remains: the Neogi are a hateful, xenophoic race that has no friends.

I mean, adding on "slavers" to the end of that doesn't drastically alter that, nor is their ability to "not do the feeling thing" (because, of course, they should have "feelings" in comprehensible human terms?). Perhaps it would have been to say that they are "utterly alien" or "utterly incomprehensible" from the perspective of humans (etc.?).

Heck, they're on diplomatic/economic terms with Mindflayers!? (I've played BG3, so I've got a semi-memory of what they're like!)

If anything, I'm finding the notion of representing them as inherent "slavers" and thus "evil" to be somewhat simplistic.  What purpose does slavery fill in neogi society other than saying "Me has many slaves, me big boss" (apparently I'm speaking in pseudo-Ork now!?)?

Even in the American South, there was a reason for slavery, as horrid as that might be, and whether it was enslaved First Nation people, white indentured servants or whatever. There doesn't seem to be a reason for it with the neogi other than "Oh, they eat people and keep slaves so that they can become captains!"

Maybe I'm just reading the original materials incorrectly? There's something deeper and more nuanced?

The "Ecology" section with respect to "Grand Old Masters" just seems perplexing to me. I'm not sure quite how this fits into ecology--at least as I understand it. (Back of postage stamp knowledge etc.).

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 11:19:30 PMI'm willing to bet the Nazi's will be memory holed before I'm dead.  They won't be taught about, they will be expunged.  Everyone is happy in the new socialist utopia where a black man marries a white woman and gives birth to an asian daughter and a hispanic son with a dog that birth's kittens.

I find that hard to believe, especially since as the Right claims frequently that they're called Nazis so why would the Left give that up?

I don't know quite how to interpret the last sentence, so I'll just leave that alone to focus on the game stuff.

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 26, 2023, 05:36:38 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 11:19:30 PMLeftard WotC Neogi's: Vulcans

TSR Neogi's: Slavers

With the caveat that I am once again not sure what additional text there is, nor what the text is that has been "redacted" (nor who gave it the redacted treatment except insofar as it might pertain to "woke" ideology)?

Why are these inherently exclusive positions? Why, using the above language, can neogi not be "Vulcan Slavers"? If you take a look at the second paragraph in their description from that original book (I have nothing new) then:

Quote from: Spelljammer - Adventures in Space, p. 83The neogi are hated throughout the Know Spheres, and their spiderships are often attacked without giving them the chance for provocation. The reason is that neogi are ruthless slayers and plunderers to the last being, and think nothing of eating their enemies, servants, or fallen comrades. In all the variety of the universe, one truth remains: the Neogi are a hateful, xenophoic race that has no friends.

I mean, adding on "slavers" to the end of that doesn't drastically alter that, nor is their ability to "not do the feeling thing" (because, of course, they should have "feelings" in comprehensible human terms?). Perhaps it would have been to say that they are "utterly alien" or "utterly incomprehensible" from the perspective of humans (etc.?).

Heck, they're on diplomatic/economic terms with Mindflayers!? (I've played BG3, so I've got a semi-memory of what they're like!)

If anything, I'm finding the notion of representing them as inherent "slavers" and thus "evil" to be somewhat simplistic.  What purpose does slavery fill in neogi society other than saying "Me has many slaves, me big boss" (apparently I'm speaking in pseudo-Ork now!?)?

Even in the American South, there was a reason for slavery, as horrid as that might be, and whether it was enslaved First Nation people, white indentured servants or whatever. There doesn't seem to be a reason for it with the neogi other than "Oh, they eat people and keep slaves so that they can become captains!"

Maybe I'm just reading the original materials incorrectly? There's something deeper and more nuanced?

The "Ecology" section with respect to "Grand Old Masters" just seems perplexing to me. I'm not sure quite how this fits into ecology--at least as I understand it. (Back of postage stamp knowledge etc.).

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 25, 2023, 11:19:30 PMI'm willing to bet the Nazi's will be memory holed before I'm dead.  They won't be taught about, they will be expunged.  Everyone is happy in the new socialist utopia where a black man marries a white woman and gives birth to an asian daughter and a hispanic son with a dog that birth's kittens.

I find that hard to believe, especially since as the Right claims frequently that they're called Nazis so why would the Left give that up?

I don't know quite how to interpret the last sentence, so I'll just leave that alone to focus on the game stuff.

The reason why the leftards are removing slavery as a term is they themselves were slavers, ie Democrats.  They feel very uncomfortable having slavery brought up and they want it removed from the lexicon.  The excuse they use is if you don't talk about something, then it won't happen, which is cute.  Obama bombed Libya and a consequence of that was in Libya you could buy an African for $400, it didn't stop until the beginning of 2021.  The left in the US is an inherently racist institution, everything is based on race.  The leaders of said group of little racists tend to be quite wealthy whites.  Being called a Nazi and having that pointed out to them based on their genetics will be very disconcerting to said little group of racist nuts.  Hence why if the left is given enough time, they'll even memory hole the Nazi's.  Leftard authoritarians tend to pick a racial group and favor them, look at the USSR and how they dispersed &/or genocided ethnicities that were not Russian or Chicom China where they took neighboring tribes, told the chief they were now Han and killed those who tried to resist.  Welcome to Leftard Authoritarianism, its innately racial and it ends poorly for the people inflicted with it.

As to you going into the motivations of Neogis, while I find it cute, the Neogi were created to be a monster to be killed, they are a plot point.  You could ask the same for motivations for a crystal ooze, they are there to be an obstacle to the party to overcome.  You can fill in whatever you want for their motivation, slavery was used to give players an incentive to kill them before they take away resources (towns) from the party and/or ultimately enslave them (TPK).  The same way how orcs are used as monsters to fight.  You don't have a game if you have nothing to kill, its that simple. You know how slaves were used for agriculture, industry, status and wealth in the Ottoman Empire or Aztec Empire as an example.  You have a complete economic system when slavery is brought into the countries economic system. Just by using the term slavery you have encoded a tremendous amount of information on the creature, its motivations and economics.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PM
The reason why the leftards are removing slavery as a term is they themselves were slavers, ie Democrats.

Errr, you do realise that there's this whole political shift when it comes to "Democrats" and "Republicans", right?

The term "180" might be involved?

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PMThey feel very uncomfortable having slavery brought up and they want it removed from the lexicon.

Which lexicon?

If the Left is up to shenanigans they should totally be called out on this.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PMObama bombed Libya...

Totally.

At this point, however, I don't think that my agreement (or not) is going to be taken in a good way. You know. Because I'm a "fake centrist".

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PMAs to you going into the motivations of Neogis, while I find it cute, the Neogi were created to be a monster to be killed, they are a plot point.  You could ask the same for motivations for a crystal ooze, they are there to be an obstacle to the party to overcome. [/qutoe]
Seriously, if your preference is unthinking application of tropes? Go for it. There's really nothing wrong with it at your table.

I think that there's a point at which you can explore nuances. Just as the same as you can explore shitty neogi races.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PMJust by using the term slavery you have encoded a tremendous amount of information on the creature, its motivations and economics.

For the lowest common denominator? Sure.

If that's where you're at? Cool.

#therpgsite

Quote from: Kage2020 on November 26, 2023, 08:21:23 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PM
The reason why the leftards are removing slavery as a term is they themselves were slavers, ie Democrats.

Errr, you do realise that there's this whole political shift when it comes to "Democrats" and "Republicans", right?

The term "180" might be involved?

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PMThey feel very uncomfortable having slavery brought up and they want it removed from the lexicon.

Which lexicon?

If the Left is up to shenanigans they should totally be called out on this.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PMObama bombed Libya...

Totally.

At this point, however, I don't think that my agreement (or not) is going to be taken in a good way. You know. Because I'm a "fake centrist".

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PMAs to you going into the motivations of Neogis, while I find it cute, the Neogi were created to be a monster to be killed, they are a plot point.  You could ask the same for motivations for a crystal ooze, they are there to be an obstacle to the party to overcome. [/qutoe]
Seriously, if your preference is unthinking application of tropes? Go for it. There's really nothing wrong with it at your table.

I think that there's a point at which you can explore nuances. Just as the same as you can explore shitty neogi races.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 26, 2023, 07:39:45 PMJust by using the term slavery you have encoded a tremendous amount of information on the creature, its motivations and economics.

For the lowest common denominator? Sure.

If that's where you're at? Cool.

#therpgsite

As to lexicon, WotC is literally removing the term "slavery" from WotC's Lexicon.  As to slavery encoding information, again its quite useful from an economic perspective.  I do not require an entire backstory on a monster entry in a book.  If a splatbook is released that is expected.  You are going to expect condensed information in a monster manual.  Terms like feudal, tribal, matriarchy, republic, slavery all denote how a monster lives as a society in a greatly condensed term and word count.

I'm totally not sure where to progress from the last post.

A part of my sees it as saying that WotC (and maybe D&D sucks ass at world and race development.

I don't know.