Quote from: Semaj Khan on January 10, 2023, 08:25:39 PM
I interpreted the black flag as total war with no quarter given (25%??? See what I did there?)...

Ooo, that's a deep cut! I like it.

New hashtag I saw on the D&DBeyond forums of all places;

"It's time to #EnD&D."

People on their own forums are proudly announcing they've canceled their subscriptions over this and are calling for an end D&D as a brand.

And all WotC can muster after six days is "please stand by."

We are rapidly approaching the level of farce.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 10, 2023, 07:11:39 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 10, 2023, 07:06:14 PM
D&D Beyond @DnDBeyond · 6h
We know you have questions about the OGL and we will be sharing more soon. Thank you for your patience.

That's it.

THAT is what they've managed to put together as a response to the firestorm after SIX days (four business days).

That is NOT how any organization that has any idea what they're going to do responds to something like this.

Maybe (yeah if you believe that I have a bridge in San Fran for sale) they are busy making their new non open licence into a less shitty turd.

Or they are so sure the shitstorm will blow away that they only have to wait it out.

Hasbro would be foolish to wait things out. They can't wait out the shitstorm. There's a very large subset of the TTRPG industry that uses the OGL, to the point that OGL gaming is an industry itself.....and Hasbro just chose to maliciously and ruthlessly destroy this industry in the most ridiculous, heavy-handed, and petty way possible.

Even if Hasbro tones down its aggressively evil bullshit, few people will trust them now. Few people would dare. Even ordinary DMs would start to worry about putting up D&D content on their personal blogs, because they'd be forced to worry about DMCA takedowns.

Hasbro has really, really fucked up....but we probably won't know how badly they've fucked up for a few years.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on January 11, 2023, 01:51:07 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 10, 2023, 07:11:39 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 10, 2023, 07:06:14 PM
D&D Beyond @DnDBeyond · 6h
We know you have questions about the OGL and we will be sharing more soon. Thank you for your patience.

That's it.

THAT is what they've managed to put together as a response to the firestorm after SIX days (four business days).

That is NOT how any organization that has any idea what they're going to do responds to something like this.

Maybe (yeah if you believe that I have a bridge in San Fran for sale) they are busy making their new non open licence into a less shitty turd.

Or they are so sure the shitstorm will blow away that they only have to wait it out.

Hasbro would be foolish to wait things out. They can't wait out the shitstorm. There's a very large subset of the TTRPG industry that uses the OGL, to the point that OGL gaming is an industry itself.....and Hasbro just chose to maliciously and ruthlessly destroy this industry in the most ridiculous, heavy-handed, and petty way possible.

Even if Hasbro tones down its aggressively evil bullshit, few people will trust them now. Few people would dare. Even ordinary DMs would start to worry about putting up D&D content on their personal blogs, because they'd be forced to worry about DMCA takedowns.

Hasbro has really, really fucked up....but we probably won't know how badly they've fucked up for a few years.

Yeah, but like I said before here on another thread regarding the shitstorm: Greed makes people dumb.

re: Hasbro waiting things out.

Yea, I'm in agreement, it would considerably foolish.  But how far down that path do they go?  My largest fear is that WoTC moves to 'nuclear strike' all non-OGL 1.1 material from store-fronts, such as DtRPG.  I could see WoTC sending them a 'nice' letter stating that as of (some date), all OGL material that isn't under OGL 1.1 is now considered "unlicensed content", and the producers of that content have no rights to it.  Therefore, it and all similar material should now be removed from sale.

I mean really; if this is as much a pure-power-play at it seems, why not try and level 90% of the "competing" material at one fell swoop.

Quote from: WeatherDave on January 11, 2023, 11:35:58 AM
re: Hasbro waiting things out.

Yea, I'm in agreement, it would considerably foolish.  But how far down that path do they go?  My largest fear is that WoTC moves to 'nuclear strike' all non-OGL 1.1 material from store-fronts, such as DtRPG.  I could see WoTC sending them a 'nice' letter stating that as of (some date), all OGL material that isn't under OGL 1.1 is now considered "unlicensed content", and the producers of that content have no rights to it.  Therefore, it and all similar material should now be removed from sale.

I mean really; if this is as much a pure-power-play at it seems, why not try and level 90% of the "competing" material at one fell swoop.

They can try, but forewarned is forearmed and all the third parties are already in motion to protect themselves. Good luck dropping an OGL-based cease and desist on DtRPG for Delta Green when they've already pulled the OGL from their products.

That's where this radio silence followed by a "please stand by" now 22 hours ago isn't helping WotC if their goal was a nuclear strike. They were hoping to use fear coupled with a very tight time scale to essentially bully third parties into compliance with the OGL1.1... but with the notice and knowledge that the actual 1.1 release isn't officially released its turned the dangerous kind of fear (where you make stupid choices in the heat of the moment) into the productive "this is an unaffordable risk we must plan to avoid" kind of fear... the kind of pressure of impending threat that motivates decisive and effective actions to resist rather succumb.

Basically, whoever the leaker was is a hero who has probably saved more than a few smaller publishers from making disastrous fear impulse moves by giving them the time to consider other options.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 10, 2023, 07:06:14 PM
D&D Beyond @DnDBeyond · 6h
We know you have questions about the OGL and we will be sharing more soon. Thank you for your patience.

This is the most entertainment I've gotten out of WOTC in years.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 11, 2023, 12:23:41 PM



This is the most entertainment I've gotten out of WOTC in years.

Wizards fucked themselves...big time. They basically pissed off enough people that the D&D brand might actually be damaged enough to cost them financially, which means Hasbro might pull the plug and gut the whole thing. Which would be hilarious.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on January 11, 2023, 01:51:07 AM
...
Hasbro would be foolish to wait things out. They can't wait out the shitstorm. There's a very large subset of the TTRPG industry that uses the OGL, to the point that OGL gaming is an industry itself.....and Hasbro just chose to maliciously and ruthlessly destroy this industry in the most ridiculous, heavy-handed, and petty way possible.

Good. Best thing for the hobby since 1977.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on January 11, 2023, 01:51:07 AM
Even if Hasbro tones down its aggressively evil bullshit, few people will trust them now. Few people would dare. Even ordinary DMs would start to worry about putting up D&D content on their personal blogs, because they'd be forced to worry about DMCA takedowns.

We can Dream.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb on January 11, 2023, 01:51:07 AM
Hasbro has really, really fucked up....but we probably won't know how badly they've fucked up for a few years.

These are all beautiful and wonderful things.

My only fear is that the WotC suits will pivot in a few years due to the outrage, and hire devs to pivot to a true 6e, and people will come running back to lick the hand that feeds...

Please WotC suits, please hold the course!

Quote from: Jaeger on January 11, 2023, 12:46:36 PM
Good. Best thing for the hobby since 1977.

The hobby is the people who play it. Not everyone in the hobby is going to be thrilled by D&D imploding. Hell, as much as I detest the last two editions and WotC as a whole, I don't want to see D&D die.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 11, 2023, 12:53:35 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on January 11, 2023, 12:46:36 PM
Good. Best thing for the hobby since 1977.

The hobby is the people who play it. Not everyone in the hobby is going to be thrilled by D&D imploding. Hell, as much as I detest the last two editions and WotC as a whole, I don't want to see D&D die.

D&D won't die permanently... the reincarnation spell exists for a reason. 

Seriously though, what the hobby really needs is for "D&D" to become akin to "Kleenex"... just a term under which many similar yet unique brands can exist and consumers are free to migrate to whichever genuinely offers a better product (or at least the right set of features for them).

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 11, 2023, 12:58:59 PM
Seriously though, what the hobby really needs is for "D&D" to become akin to "Kleenex"... just a term under which many similar yet unique brands can exist and consumers are free to migrate to whichever genuinely offers a better product (or at least the right set of features for them).

   I like this, because I think D&D has long been a broad tent holding together numerous different playstyles, if not altogether different hobbies, and breaking up the Leviathan might allow for people to find things that better suit their specific needs.

  It's already near certain that C&C, Pathfinder, Basic Fantasy, and ACKS will survive in some form, among others, and Kobold will probably be able to latch on to a lot of the audience that 5E specifically serves. If one doesn't worship at the altar of the Brand, this shouldn't cause too much disruption--and really, given WotC's track record with their IP, how many people want their specific stuff anyway?

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 11, 2023, 12:58:59 PM
Seriously though, what the hobby really needs is for "D&D" to become akin to "Kleenex"... just a term under which many similar yet unique brands can exist and consumers are free to migrate to whichever genuinely offers a better product (or at least the right set of features for them).

I've been gaming since the early 90s. I can't remember a time this wasn't already pretty much the case. If you're talking very specifically about "Six stats, armor and hitpoints, 4-10 classes, Vancian magic and Tolkien races with some level of rules cross-compatibility" we've been there since the 3.x era.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 11, 2023, 12:53:35 PM
The hobby is the people who play it. Not everyone in the hobby is going to be thrilled by D&D imploding.

IP Lemmings gonna lemming.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 11, 2023, 12:53:35 PM
Hell, as much as I detest the last two editions and WotC as a whole, I don't want to see D&D die.

Impossible.

A game that gets close enough to "D&D" will rise up and the hobby will rally around it.

Most likely scenario:

Baizuo will still be around, but slowly dwindle over time. I expect PF2 to linger on for quite a while.

The hobby will coalesce around the nearest 5e clone that gives them what they want, and is supported.

Unfortunately, the only companies that are currently in place to pull this off by 2024 have all virtue signaled in one way or another... But the future is unknown.

But make no mistake; WotC D&D will still be around a while. Most 5e players have no idea that all this OGL controversy is even going on...

There will be a 3 way fight for player networks going forward for at least ten years. This will be a good thing for the hobby.

And that is assuming that WotC doesn't pivot to a revised 6e+OGL, causing people to come running back to the one true brand.

Quote from: Bruwulf on January 11, 2023, 01:22:04 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 11, 2023, 12:58:59 PM
Seriously though, what the hobby really needs is for "D&D" to become akin to "Kleenex"... just a term under which many similar yet unique brands can exist and consumers are free to migrate to whichever genuinely offers a better product (or at least the right set of features for them).

I've been gaming since the early 90s. I can't remember a time this wasn't already pretty much the case. If you're talking very specifically about "Six stats, armor and hitpoints, 4-10 classes, Vancian magic and Tolkien races with some level of rules cross-compatibility" we've been there since the 3.x era.

Right, but in this case, WotC D&D dying is a big part of what makes that becoming a genuine umbrella possible. Once there is no longer a "one true trademarked version" taking up half the marketplace then its easier for people looking for "D&D" to be channeled towards whichever rules system best fits their needs rather than to the corporate micro-transaction laden VTT that literally has "D&D" plastered onto it.