Quote from: thornad on January 09, 2023, 05:22:38 AM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 07, 2023, 11:38:50 AM
If I was Paizo (because they are the biggest competitor) I'd hire Ryan Dancey (because he was involved in the creation of the original OGL) with the job of provoking Wizards to backing off or testing their new interpretation of the OGL. I know Paizo isn't the behemoth they once were but Dancey might take the job for cheap on principle. They might also get crowdfunding/GoFundme from other publishers if WotC tries to drag things out so as to win by having deeper pockets.

Paizo, and any of the large indie publishers are more likely to compromise with Wizards than put up much of a fight. Wizards is going to negotiate separately and individually with each one. Divide and conquer. The rest of the small publishers will have no choice but to quit or go along with the OGL 1.1.

We fans will be the most screwed. The 3rd party publishers had gotten really good at creating fantastic content far beyond the quality of anything WotC has done in years. The party is over.

Yes.  Unfortunately, the party is over.  Even if WOTC backpedals, no one will trust them anymore.  WOTC has stirred the shit pot, and now they get to lick the spoon!!!

Quote from: WeatherDave on January 08, 2023, 02:44:34 PM

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 07, 2023, 09:30:26 PM
There are plenty of other countries where WoTC's tactics of nuclear lawfare simply won't work. A number of English lawyers are quite convinced of this, and I'd suspect a lot of EU countries have similar laws.

I agree. I can only assume that WotC considers the EU market to be inconsequential for them, so it doesn't matter if D&D simply withers and dies here.

The complete radio silence from Hasbro/WotC at this point is the most amusing thing to me. We're on day five of the leak. One would think with the way social media is blowing up against them Hasbro/WotC would have released some sort of statement by now.

This leads me to the conclusion that this whole OGL 1.1 idea was basically the collaboration of a bunch of first stage thinkers; people who never even consider that their plans won't go exactly as they imagine them; and the lack of response is because they were completely blindsided by the leak and backlash (first stage thinking is everyone just bows down and accepts their terms) and are now scrambling both to find someone to blame ("it wasn't me" says everyone involved) and how to maintain the plan when it's all blowing up in their faces.

They probably didn't even consider this would turn the outrage machine against them... coming from video games they don't understand that the primary component of an RPG is the grey matter of the player base and their product is really just a convenience so each GM doesn't need to make their own system. You can control access to a video game. You can't control access to people's own imaginations as they sit face to face at a table with pens, papers and dice.

Nor that looking like a bully against everyone's favorite 3pp (and everyone playing a version of D&D probably has one... the core is probably the weakest of material for 5e) isn't a look that inspires people to want to support you.

Nor that the 3pp would behave like rational actors in the face of such a shitshow and instead of preparing to fork over money to WotC would immediately start taking steps to abandon even the 1.0a OGL.

Wait til they realize that, because their entire system is based on "roll and add" based mechanics and subtraction of resource points that any other VTT doesn't actually NEED a D&D specific plugin to run D&D on it. It's about 10 seconds to add "/roll 1d20+5" as a macro called "my attack roll" to a VTT like Foundry.

Hell, you could probably make a "character sheet" for Foundry that's just a header line, a dozen slots for "resource points" you can name/assign values to, a score or so of "action checks" you can assign names and a dice roll+mod and optional "target passive value" to and a number of "passive value" slots set up similarly combined with the basic target function and run just about about any version of D&D from that super generic framework with all of Foundry's functionality and free and clear of all WotC's microtransactions.

The point being... the silence from WotC is deafening. The lack of outright denial says 1.1 probably WAS the plan. The lack of "well, the cat's out of the bag so all you 3pp have until the 13th to comply" means they really were NOT expecting this degree of backlash and are scrambling to salvage as much of the plan as possible.

Because what happens when you launch an MCU-ish movie in an era of MCU-fatigue without diehard fans to hype it? What happens when you launch a VTT and no one signs up? What happens when all those planned for royalties turn out to be a goose egg after you spent all that money on the infrastructure to manage it?

As outraged as we are, don't think for a second this is going as planned for Hasbro/WotC right now either.

Quote from: thornad on January 09, 2023, 05:22:38 AMWe fans will be the most screwed. The 3rd party publishers had gotten really good at creating fantastic content far beyond the quality of anything WotC has done in years. The party is over.

This is precisely why Hasbro needs to get rid of the OGL. They are competing with superior products that don't pay any license fee for the privilege.

I've heard this same statement multiple times from many people which is why I think Hasbro will go scorched Earth to get rid of the OGL any way possible. Despite any hashtags on Twitter or Change.org.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 09, 2023, 09:07:01 AM
The complete radio silence from Hasbro/WotC at this point is the most amusing thing to me. We're on day five of the leak. One would think with the way social media is blowing up against them Hasbro/WotC would have released some sort of statement by now.

Keep in mind it was just a "rumor" on Thursday. Became a full blown fire on Friday. Then started to become a raging inferno on Saturday. I think up to this point the community was inside WoTC's decision-action loop. But I would consider it unusual if we don't hear something by the end of the day Monday or at the latest Tuesday.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 09, 2023, 09:07:01 AM
They probably didn't even consider this would turn the outrage machine against them... coming from video games they don't understand that the primary component of an RPG is the grey matter of the player base and their product is really just a convenience so each GM doesn't need to make their own system. You can control access to a video game. You can't control access to people's own imaginations as they sit face to face at a table with pens, papers and dice.

Or the fact that unlike Triple A videos games we don't need a staff of a hundred to make a product that can compete as a RPG against whatever the biggest publishers can product. Often one person can do it in the time they have for a hobby.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 09, 2023, 09:07:01 AM
As outraged as we are, don't think for a second this is going as planned for Hasbro/WotC right now either.

I said else Hasbro/Wizards is fighting with the last war's general. For the most part, rest of the industry and hobby has moved on and adapted to the changes that the internet and digital technology have wrought.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 09, 2023, 09:10:43 AM
This is precisely why Hasbro needs to get rid of the OGL. They are competing with superior products that don't pay any license fee for the privilege.

Unfortunately for the current management, their predecessors thought otherwise and tried to immunize D&D from any type of destruction like the one caused by the demise of TSR. Their foresight is being put to the test for the first time.

Quote from: estar on January 09, 2023, 09:29:19 AM
I said else Hasbro/Wizards is fighting with the last war's general. For the most part, rest of the industry and hobby has moved on and adapted to the changes that the internet and digital technology have wrought.

I'd take it one stage further and suggest they're fighting a land war with the last war's admiral in charge. They WANT ttrpgs to behave like video games because their hires know how to monetize a video game. They don't really understand the market and so have gravely miscalculated the effects of their actions.

"We hit them a full barrage, why aren't they sinking?"
"It's a fort, sir. They don't sink."

Quote from: hedgehobbit link=topic=45691.msg1239239#msg1239239 date=quote author=thornad link=topic=45691.msg1239226#msg1239226 date=1673259758]We
This is precisely why Hasbro needs to get rid of the OGL. They are competing with superior products that don't pay any license fee for the privilege.

The woke don't see quality. They see alternate voices to the one true word! Such voices must be censored to avoid confusing the faithful.

One could say this was inevitable once they went woke.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 09, 2023, 09:42:07 AM

Quote from: estar on January 09, 2023, 09:29:19 AM
I said else Hasbro/Wizards is fighting with the last war's general. For the most part, rest of the industry and hobby has moved on and adapted to the changes that the internet and digital technology have wrought.

I'd take it one stage further and suggest they're fighting a land war with the last war's admiral in charge. They WANT ttrpgs to behave like video games because their hires know how to monetize a video game. They don't really understand the market and so have gravely miscalculated the effects of their actions.

"We hit them a full barrage, why aren't they sinking?"
"It's a fort, sir. They don't sink."

   I've been wondering for years how much a corporate culture informed by MtG has impacted WotC's handling of D&D, and the new shift in management (and the loss of Winninger, who was in the industry before WotC existed, I believe) is probably only compounding the disconnect.

Quote from: Chris24601
This leads me to the conclusion that this whole OGL 1.1 idea was basically the collaboration of a bunch of first stage thinkers; people who never even consider that their plans won't go exactly as they imagine them; and the lack of response is because they were completely blindsided by the leak and backlash (first stage thinking is everyone just bows down and accepts their terms) and are now scrambling both to find someone to blame ("it wasn't me" says everyone involved) and how to maintain the plan when it's all blowing up in their faces.

They probably didn't even consider this would turn the outrage machine against them... coming from video games they don't understand that the primary component of an RPG is the grey matter of the player base and their product is really just a convenience so each GM doesn't need to make their own system. You can control access to a video game. You can't control access to people's own imaginations as they sit face to face at a table with pens, papers and dice.

I suspect you are probably right. Although I can see Cynthia Williams as Emperor Palpatine in the WoTC Death Star  steepling her fingers and cackling
"Everything is proceeding exactly as I have foreseen!" 

I've watched a bunch of videos about narcissists recently. Current WoTC behaviour seems very reminiscent of what I saw described. Eg the OGL 1.1 is a vicious attack on the 3PP community, which includes verbiage about what a poor little victim WoTC is, those big bad 3PPs stealing their IP. There's some serious gaslighting being attempted.

Oh, to be a fly on the wall at the WOTC and Hasbro company meetings right now.  I'd love to have an opportunity to hear it all.  I bet it is getting "festive", up in there.

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 09, 2023, 10:08:57 AM
The woke don't see quality. They see alternate voices to the one true word! Such voices must be censored to avoid confusing the faithful.

One could say this was inevitable once they went woke.

Sometimes the screeds on this board feel like intentional blindness. Y'all know your characterisations of the "woke" are a bunch of hooey, right?

My relatively woke players have had a lot more fun in Dwimmermount and Runewild, both 3p campaigns, than in any WotC product. Without me hitting them over the head with "Sandbox! OSR!" they're starting to put the pieces together about open-ended location-based campaigns having more _potential_ for some kinds of good play than poorly-written adventure paths or tonight's-five-room-dungeon-fiat.

Roll for Combat (A channel by some RPG Industry veterans) apparently has the license, and has posted it for your perusal.

Link: https://youtu.be/Sj5dsiDXeUw

Here's a hell of a line for you from Page 2 of the document:
"What if I don't like these terms and don't agree to the OGL: Commercial? That's fine – it just means that you cannot earn income from any SRD-based D&D content you create on or after January 13, 2023, and you will need to either operate under the new OGL: NonCommercial or strike a custom direct deal with Wizards of the Coast for your project."

I'll just post the leaked file here. Why go anywhere else

Holy C*ap.  I'm an ignoramus when it comes to anything legal, but even my uneducated eye seems some real OMG's in that document. Like Page 2:
"What if I don't like these terms and don't agree to the OGL: Commercial? That's fine – it just means that you cannot earn income from any SRD-based D&D content you create on or after January 13, 2023, and you will need to either operate under the new OGL: NonCommercial or strike a custom direct deal with Wizards of the Coast for your project."​

I take it to mean Pathfinder, Wayfarers and anything else that uses 1.0a of the OGL.  As others have suggested, that perhaps means that since WoTC has the copyright on that OGL, you can't even publish it since it's been unauthorized.

wow... maybe (as someone else has said, that's all bluster), but I can't see how that doesn't show their intent.