Quote from: jhkim on January 06, 2023, 09:30:24 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 06, 2023, 08:34:55 PM

Quote from: Omega on January 06, 2023, 07:51:18 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 06, 2023, 10:19:00 AM
Rules Lawyer had a video showing the wording and apparently if you opt-in anything you create is usable by WotC for perpetuity even if they cancel the license. I assume this means new spells, monsters, classes, etc and not entire products but it could mean literally everything.

Thats in the old one too. By using the DMs guild you forfeit the right to your stuff in perpetuity.

Nope, that's a sepparate agreement you "sign" in order to be able to publish on the DMs Guild.

I don't know what the DMs Guild agreement is, but the OGL 1.0a does mean that you permanently give away exclusive rights to any derivative material and anything else you declare open. That's sort of the point. WotC or anyone else can use any of your open material.

In practice, I don't think WotC has ever published any commercial product under the OGL, so it seems like a moot point. Still, in principle, they could.

That's been a problem for some publishers, like Green Ronin Games complaining about publishing an SRD of their True20 material.

Nope, the OGL says your content is now Open, not that WotC or anyone else can cancel your license but retain the use of your content while you can't because you no longer have a license. Important distinction.

When you publish on the Guild you cede your rights to WotC, and many fools have done so because "I'm a published contributor to D&D!". The Guild can kick you out and you can't publish that content elsewhere.

Which is exactly what the NoOGL does. Since it's not really an open license it works different than the OGL.

Under the OGL anyone can use my material, but NO ONE can prevent me from using it too. Under the NoOGL WotC can for any reason unilaterally cancel my license but retain the rights to my material, material to which I would no longer have the rights to since it was published under their NoOGL.

Do you understand now?

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:09:57 PM
Basically sounds like nothing short of a crowdfunded class action of all the large and small players would really have the monetary resources to counter (barring some very dedicated pro bono angels... but even they would have expenses probably in the hundreds of thousands if they were lucky).

Plan B is crowdsource an alternate SRD that touches nothing of WotC's versions directly with everything reworded from scratch (use the same procedures as reverse engineers use), a completely original setting and accept some additional notable differences (different names for widely known spells, attributes, classes, etc.... I'd never touch halflings as a playable race for example... sucks, but they're too D&D specific for me to feel safe using them) to make it not worth Hasbro's efforts in the same way that they'd never, in a sane world, be able to touch anything from Palladium Books.

Or some of us get together, make the SRD AND then launch a crowdfunding campaign to publish it.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:09:57 PM
Basically sounds like nothing short of a crowdfunded class action of all the large and small players would really have the monetary resources to counter (barring some very dedicated pro bono angels... but even they would have expenses probably in the hundreds of thousands if they were lucky).

Plan B is crowdsource an alternate SRD that touches nothing of WotC's versions directly with everything reworded from scratch (use the same procedures as reverse engineers use), a completely original setting and accept some additional notable differences (different names for widely known spells, attributes, classes, etc.... I'd never touch halflings as a playable race for example... sucks, but they're too D&D specific for me to feel safe using them) to make it not worth Hasbro's efforts in the same way that they'd never, in a sane world, be able to touch anything from Palladium Books.

That is my view, too, agreed.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:09:57 PM
Plan B is crowdsource an alternate SRD that touches nothing of WotC's versions directly with everything reworded from scratch (use the same procedures as reverse engineers use), a completely original setting and accept some additional notable differences (different names for widely known spells, attributes, classes, etc.... I'd never touch halflings as a playable race for example... sucks, but they're too D&D specific for me to feel safe using them) to make it not worth Hasbro's efforts in the same way that they'd never, in a sane world, be able to touch anything from Palladium Books.

Halfling is probably fine because the term has a lot of precedent in other works. Tolkien uses it, and it's hundreds of years old. The D&D conception of "halfling" is about as generic as they come, and there's really no unique features to their portrayal you can't find elsewhere. I'm not even sure why they are in D&D besides the historical baggage of Tolkien emulation, plus a different racial statpackage.

In my opinion almost all "Product Identity" things are like this. Does anyone care if there's a spell named after Mordenkainen specifically? I sure don't, because none of the games I've run have ever been set in any real D&D setting. It's always been homebrew stuff for me and my groups.

I guess in this hypothetical product you basically want to provide all the Tabletop RPG Comfort Food that D&D has accumulated over the years. So even though there's no reason to have these antiquated particulars, you probably want to include it or something basically indistinguishable from it.

Quote from: Zelen on January 06, 2023, 11:00:48 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:09:57 PM
Plan B is crowdsource an alternate SRD that touches nothing of WotC's versions directly with everything reworded from scratch (use the same procedures as reverse engineers use), a completely original setting and accept some additional notable differences (different names for widely known spells, attributes, classes, etc.... I'd never touch halflings as a playable race for example... sucks, but they're too D&D specific for me to feel safe using them) to make it not worth Hasbro's efforts in the same way that they'd never, in a sane world, be able to touch anything from Palladium Books.

Halfling is probably fine because the term has a lot of precedent in other works. Tolkien uses it, and it's hundreds of years old. The D&D conception of "halfling" is about as generic as they come, and there's really no unique features to their portrayal you can't find elsewhere. I'm not even sure why they are in D&D besides the historical baggage of Tolkien emulation, plus a different racial statpackage.

In my opinion almost all "Product Identity" things are like this. Does anyone care if there's a spell named after Mordenkainen specifically? I sure don't, because none of the games I've run have ever been set in any real D&D setting. It's always been homebrew stuff for me and my groups.

I guess in this hypothetical product you basically want to provide all the Tabletop RPG Comfort Food that D&D has accumulated over the years. So even though there's no reason to have these antiquated particulars, you probably want to include it or something basically indistinguishable from it.

Nope, Halfling IS D&D, Tolkien uses Hobbits, which is why TSR had to change it from cuz the Tolkien state went after them.

But there's an alternate name: Mitjan, means middle in Catalan. Or use Pundit's monkey people from Arrows of Indra.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 06, 2023, 09:53:16 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:09:57 PM
Basically sounds like nothing short of a crowdfunded class action of all the large and small players would really have the monetary resources to counter (barring some very dedicated pro bono angels... but even they would have expenses probably in the hundreds of thousands if they were lucky).

Plan B is crowdsource an alternate SRD that touches nothing of WotC's versions directly with everything reworded from scratch (use the same procedures as reverse engineers use), a completely original setting and accept some additional notable differences (different names for widely known spells, attributes, classes, etc.... I'd never touch halflings as a playable race for example... sucks, but they're too D&D specific for me to feel safe using them) to make it not worth Hasbro's efforts in the same way that they'd never, in a sane world, be able to touch anything from Palladium Books.

Or some of us get together, make the SRD AND then launch a crowdfunding campaign to publish it.

To be fair, I already have a non-OGL system ready to go and just need to finish out the artwork for it to be ready to go (scheduled completion on that is presently March). Its about as distinct from D&D as Palladium Fantasy is which, by my estimate, is probably sufficient as Kevin had the OGL pegged as a potential trap decades ago and refused to let his system get entrenched in it.

Ruins & Realms (my game system) probably has enough mechanically similar that it could be a framework to build off in various directions, but I have zero interest in involving myself in crafting a direct D&D-alike. The entire point of my project was I pretty much despised 5e and wanted a system that would deliver the experience I wanted it to provide instead (it still plays a lot like WotC-era D&D at the table, but the mechanics for getting there are quite different). There will be a "Free Systems License" for it (I want people to make and sell adventures and their own supplements for it), but none of the Creative Commons ones are quite the right fit so I'm going to need a custom one drafted.* In the meantime I'm all about getting feedback on the draft rules for those who inquire and want a heads up on what the content of my FSL-backed SRD will be when the license is good to go.

Frankly, given the news, I'd say the cleaner the break from anything connected to D&D the better. If you're in the OGL camp, I'd suggest looking long and hard at the portions of your products that are truly unique and independent from anything derived from WotC and how you might be able to incorporate those into a framework that's built different enough to not really look like D&D anymore.

I know a lot of the OSR is based on getting quite close mechanically to the TSR editions, but in this case saving the spirit might require dumping parts of the letter of the rules unless you want to pay your double tithe to WotC (the threshold for which I expect to drop to somewhere closer to that 50k reporting requirement as soon as Hasbro figures out the best balance of fees vs. the cost of paperwork and people they'll need to manage it).

* I need to protect art (as anything I licensed from others I have no right to redistribute), trade dress/logos (for obvious reasons) and the proper names of characters and places (in part because several were created by friends who let me use them for the book, but I don't feel belong enough to me to just give away for others to do with as they please... but also because I want a tiny part of the world I created to remain mine... its a planet, I don't think keeping an area about the size of Indiana for my own adventure modules is too much to ask in exchange for letting others use a 260,000 word game document I've spent the better part of a decade and dedicated to my father who passed away recently; which is another story intimately connected to the years long development of Ruins & Realms I'll save for another time).

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 11:44:55 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 06, 2023, 09:53:16 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:09:57 PM
Basically sounds like nothing short of a crowdfunded class action of all the large and small players would really have the monetary resources to counter (barring some very dedicated pro bono angels... but even they would have expenses probably in the hundreds of thousands if they were lucky).

Plan B is crowdsource an alternate SRD that touches nothing of WotC's versions directly with everything reworded from scratch (use the same procedures as reverse engineers use), a completely original setting and accept some additional notable differences (different names for widely known spells, attributes, classes, etc.... I'd never touch halflings as a playable race for example... sucks, but they're too D&D specific for me to feel safe using them) to make it not worth Hasbro's efforts in the same way that they'd never, in a sane world, be able to touch anything from Palladium Books.

Or some of us get together, make the SRD AND then launch a crowdfunding campaign to publish it.

To be fair, I already have a non-OGL system ready to go and just need to finish out the artwork for it to be ready to go (scheduled completion on that is presently March). Its about as distinct from D&D as Palladium Fantasy is which, by my estimate, is probably sufficient as Kevin had the OGL pegged as a potential trap decades ago and refused to let his system get entrenched in it.

Ruins & Realms (my game system) probably has enough mechanically similar that it could be a framework to build off in various directions, but I have zero interest in involving myself in crafting a direct D&D-alike. The entire point of my project was I pretty much despised 5e and wanted a system that would deliver the experience I wanted it to provide instead (it still plays a lot like WotC-era D&D at the table, but the mechanics for getting there are quite different). There will be a "Free Systems License" for it (I want people to make and sell adventures and their own supplements for it), but none of the Creative Commons ones are quite the right fit so I'm going to need a custom one drafted.* In the meantime I'm all about getting feedback on the draft rules for those who inquire and want a heads up on what the content of my FSL-backed SRD will be when the license is good to go.

Frankly, given the news, I'd say the cleaner the break from anything connected to D&D the better. If you're in the OGL camp, I'd suggest looking long and hard at the portions of your products that are truly unique and independent from anything derived from WotC and how you might be able to incorporate those into a framework that's built different enough to not really look like D&D anymore.

I know a lot of the OSR is based on getting quite close mechanically to the TSR editions, but in this case saving the spirit might require dumping parts of the letter of the rules unless you want to pay your double tithe to WotC (the threshold for which I expect to drop to somewhere closer to that 50k reporting requirement as soon as Hasbro figures out the best balance of fees vs. the cost of paperwork and people they'll need to manage it).

* I need to protect art (as anything I licensed from others I have no right to redistribute), trade dress/logos (for obvious reasons) and the proper names of characters and places (in part because several were created by friends who let me use them for the book, but I don't feel belong enough to me to just give away for others to do with as they please... but also because I want a tiny part of the world I created to remain mine... its a planet, I don't think keeping an area about the size of Indiana for my own adventure modules is too much to ask in exchange for letting others use a 260,000 word game document I've spent the better part of a decade and dedicated to my father who passed away recently; which is another story intimately connected to the years long development of Ruins & Realms I'll save for another time).

That's fair, I'm also working on some stuff, but I'll try and work on the other thing too. Mechanics are safe, it's the IP that's the problem.

Quote from: King Tyranno on January 06, 2023, 06:36:58 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on January 05, 2023, 06:42:06 PM

Quote from: Ruprecht on January 05, 2023, 06:37:49 PM
If a small group of woke folk on twitter can get companies to make bad decisions imagine what will happen when the entire OSR (players included) get pissed at Hasbro for destroying their niche games. How hard would it be to position this as Hasbro the bully? I bet cable news would even cover the dust-up. Hasbro wouldn't want any part of that when they have a lifestyle brand to launch. They'll ignore the the original OGL and bet it all that enough will following into 3.1 virtual land.

All people have to do is consistently portray Hasbro as being anti-labor, anti-artist, anti-writer and anti-worker.  Just keep launching it on them.  Go to Reddit and pose as a leftist and start stirring up the idiots there against Hasbro.  Just start riling up the public and give them a good cash rich target taking anti-consumer action and just watch them burn it down.  The left is a circular firing squad and its easy to use them.

This is unbearably naive. You're making the false assumption that SJWs actually in any way believe what they say. When history has shown them to be hypocrites and liars. They are pro corporation every single time it matters. Because at the end of the day they want to be in control. They won't be. That's their fallacy. But they cheer for anything that reduces the rights of the individual

The people on rpg.net, Reddit, etc. are every bit as much up in arms about this as the people here...

The only real exception are news who don't know what the OGL is.

WotC has graduated to the same mental position as GW has in my mind. From just somewhat generic corpo money grubby to actively hostile to its own audience.
I also upgrade the people who will be supporting it from 'Apathetic' to 'Masochistic Sheep'.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 06, 2023, 11:32:02 PM

Quote from: Zelen on January 06, 2023, 11:00:48 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 06, 2023, 09:09:57 PM
Plan B is crowdsource an alternate SRD that touches nothing of WotC's versions directly with everything reworded from scratch (use the same procedures as reverse engineers use), a completely original setting and accept some additional notable differences (different names for widely known spells, attributes, classes, etc.... I'd never touch halflings as a playable race for example... sucks, but they're too D&D specific for me to feel safe using them) to make it not worth Hasbro's efforts in the same way that they'd never, in a sane world, be able to touch anything from Palladium Books.

Halfling is probably fine because the term has a lot of precedent in other works. Tolkien uses it, and it's hundreds of years old. The D&D conception of "halfling" is about as generic as they come, and there's really no unique features to their portrayal you can't find elsewhere. I'm not even sure why they are in D&D besides the historical baggage of Tolkien emulation, plus a different racial statpackage.

In my opinion almost all "Product Identity" things are like this. Does anyone care if there's a spell named after Mordenkainen specifically? I sure don't, because none of the games I've run have ever been set in any real D&D setting. It's always been homebrew stuff for me and my groups.

I guess in this hypothetical product you basically want to provide all the Tabletop RPG Comfort Food that D&D has accumulated over the years. So even though there's no reason to have these antiquated particulars, you probably want to include it or something basically indistinguishable from it.

Nope, Halfling IS D&D, Tolkien uses Hobbits, which is why TSR had to change it from cuz the Tolkien state went after them.

But there's an alternate name: Mitjan, means middle in Catalan. Or use Pundit's monkey people from Arrows of Indra.

No. Tolkien has already used the word, "Halfling" in his books before, and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has Halflings as a race as well. So do Halflings belong to D&D, belong to Warhammer, or do they belong to the Tolkien Estate? The answer is they belong to nobody, just like Dwarves and Elves.

Quote from: amacris on January 06, 2023, 08:23:26 PM
I wish you were right, but unfortunately I believe you are wrong.

By the misfortune of having studied law, I have a wide network of attorneys in my contacts. I already consulted with one of the top IP lawyers in the United States about this issue and the situation is grim. The attorney I spoke to is personally familiar with Hasbro and he said that Hasbro's litigation war chest is absolutely huge and they are out for blood. He said to expect them to litigate to win back their IP rights with a courtroom battle lasting 3-4 years. I asked him if I could fight back with a $100,000 GoFundMe and he literally laughed. He said it would cost $500,000 simply to get through pre-trial motions and $2-3M to see it through to completion. Hasbro will utterly bury any opponent in motions. The expense alone makes it impossible for anyone at all to fight this except the likes of Paizo. He stressed this over and over in the call: It doesn't matter how good my argument is because I will never get to make that argument. I'll be bankrupt before then.

Moreover, Wizards doesn't even need to litigate. It just needs to persuade Kickstarter and DriveThruRPG that the bread is buttered on their side. Then they can simply have my game, Pundit's game, anyone's game they don't like, shut off from the crowdfunding and distribution we need to be viable. They can do the same on YouTube, just as music companies and Nintendo do, on anyone they want to tread on. We already know how platforms behave in the face of corporate bullies. It will happen in our industry, too, if we're not careful.

I asked what my options were, given this dire situation, and he said "try not to let them notice you." Well, they've already noticed me. "Release anything you can before the new license drops." Well, what about my future product? "Never use the OGL and SRD again in the future and hope they don't care enough to sue you anyway."

The attorney I spoke to is a gamer, has impeccable credentials, and is a trusted friend of 20 years; he has no reason to lie to me or dissuade me. So, based on the advice of the best expert I know, I believe the situation is quite dire. I wish it were a case of crying wolf, but there is literally a wolf and it's here to feast.

I wish I had better news but that's the cold splash of water I got in my face yesterday.

That certainly sounds grim! So your friend thinks that while Hasbro know they have a weak case re revocation of the 1.0 OGL, but are willing to terrorise the 3PPs into acquiescing, so their case never actually gets decided in court?

This probably wouldn't work here in England because of "loser pays winner's costs" combined with "no win no fee". In the USA the only solution for the good guys seems to be a crowdfunded defence and hopefully some pro bono representation and/or funding from interested parties like the open software licence guys.

Strategically it does seem possible that WotC-Hasbro can nuke everything, with most or all 3PPs deciding it's just not worth it. They'll leave a scorched wasteland behind. They seem to think they are Microsoft and that people will still use their product no matter how hated they are. Personally I don't think they are even Games Workshop. D&D thrives on a creative community that WoTC now seems determined to destroy. The rights they assert, I think in the end are worth much less to them than the lush gaming ecosystem they are setting out to annihilate.

I'm extremely happy on WotC doing the license change personally.  I want WotC to burn themselves down to the ground and I'll piss on their ashes of a company.  WotC was a net good for D&D maybe a decade ago, but now they are censorious dicks more concerned with creating a game that a mother would read her 3 year old to put to sleep rather than a game that appeals to at least 12 and up with fun content, good stories and action without Seattle politics.  At the rate WotC is going with the D&D License, they should just rename it to ANTIFA Morals Appropriate Thought Game (formerly known by the white supremacist super racist terminology Dungeons (white cis hetero oppressive term) and Dragon (clear white supremacy term linked to the KKK).

We might get lucky and see Paizo, Kobold, Goodman, Troll Lord, Necrotic Gnome, Chaosium etc all work together and build a new game system with a collective license to fix the OGL issue.  I for once would rather play something new than anything being pushed out by the talentless race hires that WotC is shoveling.  Just go to Kobold Press tome of beasts and compare it to the monster manual, what is more fun?  Tome by a wide shot.

I just want to see companies peel away from D&D and do something new.  And frankly if WotC can go bankrupt and they have to sell the D&D License, my God please, please make it happen.  I don't want D&D in the hands of a bunch of crazed leftist racist communists.  Don't support people who will put you in camps.

Quote from: amacris on January 06, 2023, 08:23:26 PM
I wish you were right, but unfortunately I believe you are wrong.

By the misfortune of having studied law, I have a wide network of attorneys in my contacts. I already consulted with one of the top IP lawyers in the United States about this issue and the situation is grim. The attorney I spoke to is personally familiar with Hasbro and he said that Hasbro's litigation war chest is absolutely huge and they are out for blood. He said to expect them to litigate to win back their IP rights with a courtroom battle lasting 3-4 years. I asked him if I could fight back with a $100,000 GoFundMe and he literally laughed. He said it would cost $500,000 simply to get through pre-trial motions and $2-3M to see it through to completion. Hasbro will utterly bury any opponent in motions. The expense alone makes it impossible for anyone at all to fight this except the likes of Paizo. He stressed this over and over in the call: It doesn't matter how good my argument is because I will never get to make that argument. I'll be bankrupt before then.

Moreover, Wizards doesn't even need to litigate. It just needs to persuade Kickstarter and DriveThruRPG that the bread is buttered on their side. Then they can simply have my game, Pundit's game, anyone's game they don't like, shut off from the crowdfunding and distribution we need to be viable. They can do the same on YouTube, just as music companies and Nintendo do, on anyone they want to tread on. We already know how platforms behave in the face of corporate bullies. It will happen in our industry, too, if we're not careful.

I asked what my options were, given this dire situation, and he said "try not to let them notice you." Well, they've already noticed me. "Release anything you can before the new license drops." Well, what about my future product? "Never use the OGL and SRD again in the future and hope they don't care enough to sue you anyway."

The attorney I spoke to is a gamer, has impeccable credentials, and is a trusted friend of 20 years; he has no reason to lie to me or dissuade me. So, based on the advice of the best expert I know, I believe the situation is quite dire. I wish it were a case of crying wolf, but there is literally a wolf and it's here to feast.

I wish I had better news but that's the cold splash of water I got in my face yesterday.

Thank you.

I am aware that this would be the case if it ever came to litigation. I guess I was just hopelessly optimistic that we still had judges who were principled and patriotic enough to recognize the intent of the OGL is meant to be permanent and binding, and smack down Hasbro's attempt to weasel out of that agreement. I guess it's just another one of those days to swallow a black pill with my morning coffee. 

Quote from: Effete on January 07, 2023, 08:17:04 AM
I guess I was just hopelessly optimistic that we still had judges who were principled and patriotic enough to recognize the intent of the OGL is meant to be permanent and binding, and smack down Hasbro's attempt to weasel out of that agreement.

The point of Lawfare is to ensure the case never actually gets to the point of a judge ruling on it. You destroy the other side with legal costs, before a judge has the chance to throw your case out of court. The judges can all be pillars of moral integrity, yet this tactic still succeed.   

Quote from: S'mon on January 07, 2023, 08:29:51 AM

Quote from: Effete on January 07, 2023, 08:17:04 AM
I guess I was just hopelessly optimistic that we still had judges who were principled and patriotic enough to recognize the intent of the OGL is meant to be permanent and binding, and smack down Hasbro's attempt to weasel out of that agreement.

The point of Lawfare is to ensure the case never actually gets to the point of a judge ruling on it. You destroy the other side with legal costs, before a judge has the chance to throw your case out of court. The judges can all be pillars of moral integrity, yet this tactic still succeed.   

Right, but judges also reserve the right to deny the submittal of motions. Then there's things like Procedural Dismissals. It's just depressing to see how we truly live in a plutacracy.