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WOTC, SRD, Gettin' Lawyerly

Started by Daddy Warpig, January 02, 2023, 03:02:46 PM

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atomic

#30
January 03, 2023, 01:43:23 PM
Quote from: S'mon on January 03, 2023, 12:04:07 PM
Re formulas not being protected, this means that the 3e and 4e D&D XP tables are not copyright protected AFAICS, as they can each be derived from a formula. The 5e one though deliberately avoids following a formula and so may well be protected.

Any table could be defined as a mathematical piecewise function.  The simplest being the step function, but they can have arbitrary limits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piecewise.  So if you wanted an exact copy, you could define the function in the rules, and then have a 'quick reference chart' of the outputs at particular levels  ;D

Daddy Warpig

#31
January 03, 2023, 02:27:55 PM
I am not a lawyer, but in discussions like this with real lawyers (who are also RPG designers) I have been informed that tables can indeed be copyrighted, but the underlying formula (if any) can't be, so you can include the formula but not the table. I've been told "spiritual successors" and non-OGL clones include formulas, not tables for this very reason.
"To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."
"Ulysses" by Alfred, Lord Tennyson

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S'mon

#32
January 03, 2023, 03:28:02 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on January 03, 2023, 01:01:30 PM
Luckily whenever a treaty conflicts with Federal Law - Federal Law takes precedence.

Sure, the USA is often not Treaty compliant. And anyway US judges especially tend to ignore Statute wording in favour of case precedents.

Corolinth

#33
January 03, 2023, 03:28:23 PM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on January 03, 2023, 10:46:21 AM
Again, the fun part will be if this brings them into conflict with some of the same people responsible for D&D getting it's bump.

I admit it's improbable, but WotC and Hasbro strike me as just stupid enough to get cross-threaded with Mercer and Critical Role. Cue Ken Watanabe saying 'Let them fight'.
I'm pretty sure this is exactly what they're planning. WotC wishes they could take a cut of Critical Role, which if we're being honest with ourselves, never gets off the ground were it not for Dungeons & Dragons. They're also probably trying to get a cut of NFTs and some of that VTT revenue. Again, if we're being honest with ourselves, nobody uses VTT programs without D&D. Likewise, I doubt WotC gives a single dingleberry of a shit about small time guys selling D&D or near-D&D products on DrivethruRPG.

David Johansen

#34
January 03, 2023, 03:29:40 PM
Quote from: atomic on January 03, 2023, 01:43:23 PM
Quote from: S'mon on January 03, 2023, 12:04:07 PM
Re formulas not being protected, this means that the 3e and 4e D&D XP tables are not copyright protected AFAICS, as they can each be derived from a formula. The 5e one though deliberately avoids following a formula and so may well be protected.

Any table could be defined as a mathematical piecewise function.  The simplest being the step function, but they can have arbitrary limits: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piecewise.  So if you wanted an exact copy, you could define the function in the rules, and then have a 'quick reference chart' of the outputs at particular levels  ;D

Oh is that why they did it like that?  :D  Well, I guess I can look forward to a fully integrated weapon verses armour type table in this "One D&D" thing right?
Fantasy Adventure Comic, games, and more http://www.uncouthsavage.com

S'mon

#35
January 03, 2023, 03:30:02 PM
Quote from: Daddy Warpig on January 03, 2023, 02:27:55 PM
I am not a lawyer, but in discussions like this with real lawyers (who are also RPG designers) I have been informed that tables can indeed be copyrighted, but the underlying formula (if any) can't be, so you can include the formula but not the table. I've been told "spiritual successors" and non-OGL clones include formulas, not tables for this very reason.

Sort-of, yes. Technically if you created your own table from the unprotected formula, that is not infringing, but if you copy THEIR table, that's potentially infringing (in USA & UK - not in some European countries).

S'mon

#36
January 03, 2023, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: Corolinth on January 03, 2023, 03:28:23 PM
Again, if we're being honest with ourselves, nobody uses VTT programs without D&D.

People do use VTTs for non-D&D games, obviously. I ran a Mini-Six game on Roll20 for nearly a year.

Chris24601

#37
January 03, 2023, 03:53:38 PM
Quote from: S'mon on January 03, 2023, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: Corolinth on January 03, 2023, 03:28:23 PM
Again, if we're being honest with ourselves, nobody uses VTT programs without D&D.

People do use VTTs for non-D&D games, obviously. I ran a Mini-Six game on Roll20 for nearly a year.
Foundry has some excellent plug-ins for Savage Worlds as well. Works really well for our Star Wars campaign.

Jaeger

#38
January 03, 2023, 04:54:11 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 03, 2023, 03:53:38 PM
Quote from: S'mon on January 03, 2023, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: Corolinth on January 03, 2023, 03:28:23 PM
Again, if we're being honest with ourselves, nobody uses VTT programs without D&D.

People do use VTTs for non-D&D games, obviously. I ran a Mini-Six game on Roll20 for nearly a year.
Foundry has some excellent plug-ins for Savage Worlds as well. Works really well for our Star Wars campaign.

I believe that he was implying that the majority of every VTT's userbase is made up of 5e D&D players. Nobody makes a VTT that caters exclusively to non-D&D based games...

Chris24601 can correct me if I guessed wrong.
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

RebelSky

#39
January 03, 2023, 06:42:04 PM
All another company has to do is create a new OGL but give it a different name, like Universal Game License or something. Just because WotC made the OGL doesn't stop another publisher from doing the same. There is way too much tribalistic attachment to the D&D label and brand in this hobby and this attachment to D&D is what gives WotC this imaginary leverage they are trying to assert over the industry.

It's really quite pathetic how so many people are attached to D&D and how the entire industry freaks out whenever D&D is getting a new edition. It's honestly just pathetic. There are a thousand other games but D&D is held as some sacred thing, put on a pedestal and it doesn't deserve it. It never did.

Vile Traveller

#40
January 03, 2023, 06:47:36 PM
Quote from: RebelSky on January 03, 2023, 06:42:04 PM
All another company has to do is create a new OGL but give it a different name, like Universal Game License or something.
Mongoose did with their Legend licence, though it hasn't caught on much apart from a brief upsurge of publishers switching from OGL Mongoose RuneQuest I because of nuChaosium's continued disinformation on the legitimacy of the latter.

honeydipperdavid

#41
January 03, 2023, 07:17:32 PM
The courts has already rules that game mechanics can't be copywrited.  What D&D can sue over is IP they own like Beholders (lets see my Eye Master), Mind Flayers (watch out here is the Brain Bashers) or Ropers (Beware the Stalacbeast) and there are too many work arounds to nullify whatever WotC tries to do.  You could put out a complete copy of the game using some common sense in naming of classes, spreading abilities, coin for items, classes/subclasses, races etc and even use advantage/disadvantage and WotC will lose in court.  Just don't put in a term like Dungeon Master for instance and you are good.

https://strebecklaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/DaVinci-80fb93d0-05e5-4f5a-b3ca-84241d32fd0c.pdf

Jaeger

#42
January 03, 2023, 07:35:44 PM
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on January 03, 2023, 01:08:45 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on January 03, 2023, 01:01:30 PM
And Just like the T$R days; yeah, lots of people bitched about "They Sue Regularly', but it was still the #1 selling RPG until it literally went out of print...

  It was the #1 selling RPG most of the time even when it was 'out of print'--it slipped to #2 once, and that was the month Vampire: The Masquerade, at what was probably the height of its popularity, released their big shiny new Revised 2nd Edition.

ROTFL! It was worse than I thought!

If anyone thinks that the one true game's current audience is less prone to such lemming behavior; Hit me up, I have some screaming deals on beachfront property in Nevada...
"The envious are not satisfied with equality; they secretly yearn for superiority and revenge."

atomic

#43
January 03, 2023, 08:38:11 PM
Quote from: Daddy Warpig on January 03, 2023, 02:27:55 PM
I am not a lawyer, but in discussions like this with real lawyers (who are also RPG designers) I have been informed that tables can indeed be copyrighted, but the underlying formula (if any) can't be, so you can include the formula but not the table. I've been told "spiritual successors" and non-OGL clones include formulas, not tables for this very reason.

That's pretty interesting, and now that I think about it there was a parallel argument with software patents.  Originally, software was protected by copyright and had to be litigated to get patent protection.  One of the counter arguments is that every program is effectively a mathematical proof and therefore not  patent-able.  Sadly, that argument didn't fly.

Corolinth

#44
January 03, 2023, 09:57:11 PM
Quote from: Jaeger on January 03, 2023, 04:54:11 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on January 03, 2023, 03:53:38 PM
Quote from: S'mon on January 03, 2023, 03:31:51 PM
Quote from: Corolinth on January 03, 2023, 03:28:23 PM
Again, if we're being honest with ourselves, nobody uses VTT programs without D&D.

People do use VTTs for non-D&D games, obviously. I ran a Mini-Six game on Roll20 for nearly a year.
Foundry has some excellent plug-ins for Savage Worlds as well. Works really well for our Star Wars campaign.

I believe that he was implying that the majority of every VTT's userbase is made up of 5e D&D players. Nobody makes a VTT that caters exclusively to non-D&D based games...

Chris24601 can correct me if I guessed wrong.
Close enough. I was actually rolling all editions of D&D up together.

If you remove D&D from the equation, the remaining games don't offer much incentive to put in the effort to develop a VTT platform. The money just isn't there.
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