TheRPGSite

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/wizards-coast-community-forums-be-shut-down-2015-09-16

I'll stipulate their reasoning, but I suspect the non-stop hand-wringing and shitlording by the "fans" is an easier reason. Plus - why pay money for someone to run them when they can post their PR in short bursts on Twitter etc. and not have to delve into them.

I still think it's a shame tho.

Doesnt surprise me really. Hasbro has been tightening WOTCs leash gradually and phasing out various things for WOTC and themselves. Couple of months ago they announced they were phasing out their board game manufacturing fascilities and moving to outsourcing or somesuch.

That and if the boards have been flooded with the loons any recently then WOTC may be reaching the breaking point. Mearls and a couple of the others have expressed disgust at the various things the so-called fans are doing.

I'm not up on what the so-called fans are doing, could you be more specific?

I honestly cannot recall the last time I visited the WoTC boards. I believe it was to find out details about the Gamma World rules released during 4E.

I never went to the forums to find out about the new 5E products. The press releases and product descriptions for online vendors were enough to keep me informed. The focus on char-ops and complaints during 3E gave me a bad impression of the forums long ago.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;856094I'm not up on what the so-called fans are doing, could you be more specific?

Agreed. I'm very curious what "shitlording" is.

Quote from: ForthrightRay;856095I honestly cannot recall the last time I visited the WoTC boards. I believe it was to find out details about the Gamma World rules released during 4E.

I never went to the forums to find out about the new 5E products. The press releases and product descriptions for online vendors were enough to keep me informed. The focus on char-ops and complaints during 3E gave me a bad impression of the forums long ago.

Was pretty much the exact same for me. Poked in to glance at 4e D&D GW. Was turned off that. Though the forum then was relatively tame. The 3 and 4e oddites then did not ping as much for me though as I knew nothing of either system at the time. But still felt... odd?

Quote from: Willie the Duck;856094I'm not up on what the so-called fans are doing, could you be more specific?

Now? No idea.

Around when 5e came out and even during the NEXT playtesting there was some bad behavior. After 5e came out and certain factions saw Zak and Pundits names in the books they flipped their wigs and hounded Mearls and others to the point Mearls was saying some rather unflattering things about them and 4e fans in particular.

Id thought that had all died down by now.

That's too bad, there was some really good discussions I enjoyed on their forums back in the day.

Honestly, it's just changing times IMO.

I remember when TSR and WoTC had their own "Newsgroups" and ENWorld was rec.arts.dnd (or whatever it was).  I remember when e-mail lists were the primary means for communication and forums were brand new concepts.

Forums are slowly becoming outdated.  Younger people are more used to Facebook and Twitter, and I know that G hangouts were used to faciliate a lot of table-top games.  Reddit is become the way to interact with a lot of developers and famous people.  And many folks have their own blogs or tumblrs.  It might not make sense for a company to pay moderators, maintain the servers used for them, etc.

There are advantages to forums over other communication mediums, but there were more advantages to newsgroups (NNTP) than forums, but that didn't stop forums from winning the format war.  I think this is a sign of things to come.

I have heard from a number of publicly traded companies that they dislike hosted forums because it gives a way for outsiders to have a bit too much influence. That doesn't stop a lot of American companies who curate the bad stuff out of their forums, but maybe Hasbro just doesn't want that expense.

I can't recall the last time I was on WotC's forums.  It's no loss at all, as far as I'm concerned.

Could be the first battening down for the announcement of 6th ed in 2019. :banghead:

When they closed one subform over there about a year or so ago, En World got flooded with new posters who had a....unique posting style. I don't know how indicative they were of the whole forum, but it left me with the impression that the WoTC forums were probably best left unvisited.

Surprised they lasted this long given the amount of toxic bile pretending to be posts they have on that board.

I think I've been to the official forums a handful of times., and never registered there. So I'm not going to miss it as I rarely used it.

The only time I visited the WotC boards was around the time that Essentials was released because it seemed like something that I might be interested in and I was looking for more information.

The place was a toxic madhouse. :jaw-dropping:

So are they just shutting down the forums? Or are they deleting the forums? Should there be a scramble to preserve some of the good threads?

Quote from: Omega;856135So are they just shutting down the forums? Or are they deleting the forums? Should there be a scramble to preserve some of the good threads?

The forums will be deleted as part of the shutdown on Oct. 29. Wizards is making the announcement early so users have time to copy or save content.

This also applies to the forums for Magic: The Gathering.

Ultimately the WotC forums were the comments section for a product announcement (or many product announcements).  And what's the one thing we all know about the internet, kiddos?  DON'T READ THE COMMENT SECTION.

I am slowly moving 5e character build guides over to ENWorld.

Someone asked me on the WOTC boards where they could find a good place to discuss RPG design, and I mentioned here.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;856123When they closed one subform over there about a year or so ago, En World got flooded with new posters who had a....unique posting style. I don't know how indicative they were of the whole forum, but it left me with the impression that the WoTC forums were probably best left unvisited.

Could you elaborate a bit? What was the subforum and what in their posting style made it....unique?

Quote from: Moracai;856156Could you elaborate a bit? What was the subforum and what in their posting style made it....unique?

I think it was off topic and they communicated like demented children.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;856142Ultimately the WotC forums were the comments section for a product announcement (or many product announcements).  And what's the one thing we all know about the internet, kiddos?  DON'T READ THE COMMENT SECTION.

Aw man, some of the funniest stuff is there!  :)

I never posted there and rarely visited it.
I frequent the G+ DnD 5E community a fair bit though.

And of course hang around here and rpg.net sometimes too.

Good. That means increased traffic to theRPGsite!

Quote from: Doom;856097Agreed. I'm very curious what "shitlording" is.

Worst.Prestige.Class.Ever.

Quote from: Lynn;856114I have heard from a number of publicly traded companies that they dislike hosted forums because it gives a way for outsiders to have a bit too much influence.

I can confirm that.

I have been on a consulting contract and its unanimous among the marketing team that forums are "negative assets" and even corporate Twitter feeds are battlegrounds for competitors (and naysayers).

I suggested a curated community wiki, and while many have liked the idea of the wiki, nobody wants the curating to come out of their budget. The end result may be a closed wiki.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;856165Good. That means increased traffic to theRPGsite!

As long as they've been at least slightly brushed by that thing we call civilization, I look forward to meeting them!

As far as I'm concerned WOTC's forums died around the time of the Gleemax transition. Would've been historically interesting but what a mess. Shame really.

This is bad news for me, as the forums still have useful information for D&D 3.5 that I use for my games. What a shame. :(

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;856221This is bad news for me, as the forums still have useful information for D&D 3.5 that I use for my games. What a shame. :(

Me too, I use quite a lot of the 4e Class Handbooks for ideas and options. I'll have to find another way to save the info....

Not only that but I've been a pretty active poster there since 2006 with over 20,000 posts and its a bit discerning to see all of that commentary go, not to mention the acquaintances I've met over the last 9 years.

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;856221This is bad news for me, as the forums still have useful information for D&D 3.5 that I use for my games. What a shame. :(

Well, you've got over a month to track that stuff down and archive it for later reading, so at least they aren't deleting everything and presenting the world with a fait accompli.

To be honest, this seems to be like a smart decision by Wizards. Why expend the time and energy curating their own forum when they can instead get out there and do AMAs and similar threads on other platforms which a) reach a wider audience and b) are somebody else's problem when it comes to moderation?

Quote from: Spinachcat;856181Worst.Prestige.Class.Ever.




I can confirm that.

I have been on a consulting contract and its unanimous among the marketing team that forums are "negative assets" and even corporate Twitter feeds are battlegrounds for competitors (and naysayers).

I suggested a curated community wiki, and while many have liked the idea of the wiki, nobody wants the curating to come out of their budget. The end result may be a closed wiki.

I know during the 3.5 heydey, there was an uproar because one of the current heads of design stated something along the lines of 'none of the game designers really frequent the forums. We find that it is unrepresentative of our actual gamer base.' You can imagine how that went over.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;856244I know during the 3.5 heydey, there was an uproar because one of the current heads of design stated something along the lines of 'none of the game designers really frequent the forums. We find that it is unrepresentative of our actual gamer base.' You can imagine how that went over.

Brutally true though.

Quote from: Mistwell;856148I am slowly moving 5e character build guides over to ENWorld.

Thank you. I find guides like that and the conversations they provoke very useful for my patching and homebrewing projects.

Quote from: Omega;856121Could be the first battening down for the announcement of 6th ed in 2019. :banghead:

I don't think you have to worry about that,  since they're also shutting down the Magic forums. They're probably battening down for a whole new edition of that.


Also, howdy y'all :o

Welcome Satyrn!

It's probably a good move on their part.

Quote from: Omega;856121Could be the first battening down for the announcement of 6th ed in 2019. :banghead:

That's based on the drugs you smoked last night right? I mean, they haven't even gotten the treadmill up to half speed yet on 5e.

Won't miss the forums, only time I went to the WoTC site was for the 4e character builder. I thought that was about the most evil genius web traffic driver ever even if it didn't do a very good job of selling books.

I used to really enjoy reading threads on the WotC boards, but not so much any more.

(1) Either they changed their software or it evolved to where my computer had issues with the software. I would click on a link and have it return to some generic entry page. Navigation from thread to thread has been a pain, an issue that I don't have on any other boards.

(2) Their organization is poor, and this was made worse when 3E/4E threads all got stuck into the "out of print games" area. Back in the day I could find OD&D chatter, or AD&D chatter, or any edition I wanted to find chatter. Now they stuck so many threads into a few small spaces that I can never find anything.

I'm bummed that they are shutting down their boards because I hate to lose a nice RPG resource, but I haven't spent much time there since shortly after the launch of 5E. :(

Quote from: Satyrn;856280Also, howdy y'all :o

Welcome aboard.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;856287That's based on the drugs you smoked last night right? I mean, they haven't even gotten the treadmill up to half speed yet on 5e.

Try again junior.
This is WOTC. They are obsessed with the "5 year plan" business model for D&D. If they keep to that obsession then 5e is already obsolete and plans are being made for 6th. If they follow the usual pattern then design work will start about 2 years before that deadline.

I hope they prove me wrong. But one of the product plan statements from Mearls for 5e goes to 2018. Please prove me wrong WOTC!

But yeah. If they are axing the MTG forums too then its for other reasons the forum is going out.

Quote from: Satyrn;856280I don't think you have to worry about that,  since they're also shutting down the Magic forums. They're probably battening down for a whole new edition of that.


Also, howdy y'all :o

welcome

Quote from: Warthur;856237Well, you've got over a month to track that stuff down and archive it for later reading, so at least they aren't deleting everything and presenting the world with a fait accompli.

To be honest, this seems to be like a smart decision by Wizards. Why expend the time and energy curating their own forum when they can instead get out there and do AMAs and similar threads on other platforms which a) reach a wider audience and b) are somebody else's problem when it comes to moderation?

This might sound dumb, but I don't know how to archive material from forums. My computer-fu is very weak. :(

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;856303This might sound dumb, but I don't know how to archive material from forums. My computer-fu is very weak. :(

1: Good ol' fashioned copy and paste to text. Laborious, But works.

2: Save page as a file. Works usually. But not allways.

3: Save site at a file. Sometimes works.

Quote from: Omega;8563041: Good ol' fashioned copy and paste to text. Laborious, But works.

2: Save page as a file. Works usually. But not allways.

3: Save site at a file. Sometimes works.

Maybe I'll start by giving Number 1 a try; that is laborious...but it's easy. :o

To save a page to computer as a HTML file, assuming it looks remotely like mine. Up in the corner of the browser click FILE. scroll down to SAVE PAGE AS and select the format.

Text only option for me about 50% of the time saves as an unformatted block of prose,
or
every
word
as
its
own
line.
 ooooooog! Not seeing the save site option anymore.

For grabbing copies of pages I usually like saving as .pdf. For Chrome its an option that shows up under Print (not sure about other browsers).

Quote from: Sacrificial Lamb;856303This might sound dumb, but I don't know how to archive material from forums. My computer-fu is very weak. :(

Best way to do it would be to use an Offline Downloader like HTTrack or wget.   They download all the files to your local drive so you can browse the site whenever you have time, offline.  However, a lot of modern sites uses aspx or php to dynamically generate links and pages on the fly from server-side code and that you can't copy.

Quote from: Doom;856097Agreed. I'm very curious what "shitlording" is.

Quote from: Spinachcat;856181Worst.Prestige.Class.Ever.

I think it's from Black Tokyo, actually.

JG

Quote from: Omega;856296Try again junior.
This is WOTC. They are obsessed with the "5 year plan" business model for D&D. If they keep to that obsession then 5e is already obsolete and plans are being made for 6th. If they follow the usual pattern then design work will start about 2 years before that deadline.

I hope they prove me wrong. But one of the product plan statements from Mearls for 5e goes to 2018. Please prove me wrong WOTC!

But yeah. If they are axing the MTG forums too then its for other reasons the forum is going out.

"Junior" That's cute cupcake.

I actually see your point and was just ribbong you a bit. But try this: the move to close down the forums, out source adventure modules, emphasis on branding, and stream lining of the design team feels to me like someone higher up in Hasbro is taking a much bigger hand in the running of WoTC.

Maybe we should be thinking of 5e as the first "Hasbro" D&D more than merely WotC.

Maybe the 5  year plan has gone out the window too in the new improved era of Hasbro D&D.

Or maybe my happy pills are just working well today.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;856357Maybe we should be thinking of 5e as the first "Hasbro" D&D more than merely WotC.

Maybe the 5  year plan has gone out the window too in the new improved era of Hasbro D&D.

Part of me kind of hopes D&D is about to become like Hasbro's old school classic board games: more static.

Just think, a true evergreen product that's easier for communities to coalesce around instead of the constant churn of uncertainty and splintering.

Hey, I can dream, can't I?

As much as I love the older versions of D&D and today's OSR clones, I'd be perfectly happy if WOTC never made another edition. I am perfectly happy with 5e.

Quote from: Moracai;856156Could you elaborate a bit? What was the subforum and what in their posting style made it....unique?

Here is the story:

Quote from: Kiraya_TiDrekan;6701638The WotC community has been on a steady decline for a number of years.

Once upon a time, I was Crazy Monkey - first a VCL and then part of the community team.

In 2007, the forums were at their height when Gleemax hit the scene, along with a new community management team.  Several changes took place, including several that alienated many of the forums' core contributors, such as the shutting down of Knowledge Arcana, the community fan magazine.  The first mass exodus took place at that point as most of the 3.5 era Character Optimization crowd left and formed their own community.  The Community Manager of that era was let go shortly after Gen Con 2008, but the damage had already been done.

Gleemax was a disaster, as most folks know, and was quietly shut down around the same time.  A new community platform was introduced at the beginning of 2008.  It featured many of the features promised by Gleemax, without the baggage of the Gleemax branding.  Groups became a thing and many of the Play-by-Post communities made the move to Groups, though those that didn't died off.  4E also debuted, which escalated the edition wars exponentially.  The WotC community gained a reputation for being toxic at that point, driving away more users.

When the D&D Next playtest was announced, the edition wars took another turn for the worse.  4E fans were already disgruntled due to the waning support for the edition after Essentials and the failures of D&D Insider.  While the D&D Next playtest brought an influx of new users, it was nearly matched by the exodus of 4E users.  And then there was the OTTer incident.  The Off-Topic Tavern (OTT) was, as its name suggests, an off-topic forum.  The regular users of that forum started to rebel against things like the no poliltics/religion rules, with a few becoming outright hostile toward the rest of the community and the community management team.  They used the groups function to form their own private area from which they could plan trolling attacks and harassment campaigns.  Rather than attempt to ferret out the ring-leaders (who used multiple sock-puppet accounts to get around bans), the higher-ups decided to ban them all and delete their private group.

That was the first wave of "refugees" who landed here at EN World.  

Another change in forum software resulted in a loss of some functionality in the groups section.  This resulted in the play-by-post groups dying off completely.  On the Magic side of things, entire sections of the forums decided to migrate elsewhere due to the second forum "upgrade" - Flavor and Storytelling, Deck Building, and Duels of the Planeswalkers users all packed up and left, making the Magic section of the WotC community a ghost town except for a couple of specific forums.

The only truly active area of the community by this point was the D&D Next playtest.  The community management team dwindled, either leaving the company or being let go, until there were only three of us left.  When the playtest ended, I was let go as well.  The forums limped along after that, slowly losing users, not in a mass exodus, but trickling away nonetheless.

The shutting down of the forums is thus the logical conclusion of a series of events that began in 2007, with Gleemax.

Quote from: Mistwell;856364Here is the story: . . . [banned WotC users were] the first wave of "refugees"

*reconsiders his custom title*

Quote from: Satyrn;856375*reconsiders his custom title*

Once you have been cleared through Pundit Island you will be issued a new name.Like, um, Stan or Sally.
Welcome to RPGsiteania.
Please recite the national anthem.

Quote from: JamesV;856191As long as they've been at least slightly brushed by that thing we call civilization, I look forward to meeting them!

We're supposed to be CIVILIZED?

AND NO ONE TOLD ME???

*Storms out!*

I think it really has to do with a shift in how the internet works. Message boards/forums are passe, it's all about social media.

And the internet is less about computers (which message boards/forums are best for), it's all about phones and tablets and streaming devices.

You're seeing websites being designed not for computers, but for phones. Less text, more big icons and pictures and videos. Mobile websites are no longer an option, but the default. Try using ESPN.com for instance,

The OTTer incident looks like a familiar cautionary tale... :p

Quote from: Opaopajr;856408The OTTer incident looks like a familiar cautionary tale... :p

No shit.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;856357That's cute cupcake.

I like cupcakes.

Quote from: MonsterSlayer;856357Maybe the 5  year plan has gone out the window too in the new improved era of Hasbro D&D.

Everything depends on sales.

RPGs are weird. Most players only need the core books and unless the base of players expands, there is only so many core books to be sold until you have to rinse and repeat.

Quote from: Mistwell;856364Here is the story:

Thank you Mistwell. That explained alot.

Quote from: Satyrn;856375*reconsiders his custom title*

Welcome!

Quote from: JeremyR;856398I think it really has to do with a shift in how the internet works. Message boards/forums are passe, it's all about social media.

True.

Also, forums promote DIY whereas social media is better for product cheerleading.

Message Boards, Blogs, Private Websites aren't dead yet...

There is a group of each I still visit very regularly. I just dropped all the boards and places over the years with total dickheads on them, or boards with mod sponsored dickeheads... Like WOTC for example... RPG.net, or Circvs Maximvs. Getting on to talk about games and just having someone arbitrarily shout you down, be disrespectful, or just by trying to bury you in New Gaming Goodness tm. That got old quick, so those boards were just left behind... plenty to do and see without them...

When the dickes only had each other they just ripped each other apart, and wailed, ...and gnashed their teeth, ...and threw their arms up in despair, ...because they had found themselves in a hell that they had created.

Good riddance to them.

They won't be missed, and we'll just be busy over here carrying on with our awesome tabletop gaming design and adventures...

Quote from: GameDaddy;856583Message Boards, Blogs, Private Websites aren't dead yet...

There is a group of each I still visit very regularly. I just dropped all the boards and places over the years with total dickheads on them, or boards with mod sponsored dickeheads... Like WOTC for example... RPG.net, or Circvs Maximvs. Getting on to talk about games and just having someone arbitrarily shout you down, be disrespectful, or just by trying to bury you in New Gaming Goodness tm. That got old quick, so those boards were just left behind... plenty to do and see without them...

When the dickes only had each other they just ripped each other apart, and wailed, ...and gnashed their teeth, ...and threw their arms up in despair, ...because they had found themselves in a hell that they had created.

Good riddance to them.

They won't be missed, and we'll just be busy over here carrying on with our awesome tabletop gaming design and adventures...

This, this right here. I haven't had much used for the WotC boards since the early to mid 3.5 days, if that.

Quote from: Omega;856379Once you have been cleared through Pundit Island you will be issued a new name.Like, um, Stan or Sally.
Welcome to RPGsiteania.
Please recite the national anthem.

The anthem is to be sung in unison. Preceded and followed by group calisthenics.

Now drop and give me 20!

So what on the WOTC fora might be worth saving?

Good riddance to bad rubbish.  The so-called "community mods" were so biased it made rpg.net look fair and balanced.  There was no pretense of evenhandedness in the moderation at the WotC forums; when they bothered to moderate at all it was to squash dissenting opinions, even in forums that'd been set up for things other than <$NEW_D&D>.

3e or 4e fan comes trolling in the AD&D forum?  Overlooked.  Complain?  Ignored.  FR or Dragonlance fan trolling the GH forum?  Overlooked.  Complain?  Ignored.  Respond: get smacked-down by the moderation staff.

Fuck those forums, I'm glad they're gone, and I hope the people who regularly used them all congregate at enworld and rpg.net which is where that kind of thing continues.

well i have proof theres stuff worth saveing on there i just found a term dictionary thats quite helpful
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/864481

Quote from: kosmos1214;856815well i have proof theres stuff worth saveing on there i just found a term dictionary thats quite helpful
http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-general/threads/864481

Good find.  I copied it to EN World's lifeboat threads.

Quote from: Omega;856651So what on the WOTC fora might be worth saving?

I am grabbing the 5e character builds and optimizations and putting them at EN World.  I think others are getting the 3e and 4e ones (?)

There was a good community-built setting thread that's worth keeping too.

Come on over to Usenet, we still have a dnd group. :)

Quote from: Omega;856296Try again junior.
This is WOTC. They are obsessed with the "5 year plan" business model for D&D. If they keep to that obsession then 5e is already obsolete and plans are being made for 6th. If they follow the usual pattern then design work will start about 2 years before that deadline.

I hope they prove me wrong. But one of the product plan statements from Mearls for 5e goes to 2018. Please prove me wrong WOTC!

But yeah. If they are axing the MTG forums too then its for other reasons the forum is going out.

You're not wrong. I originally said this in 2009, and I've been right every time. WoTC (via Hasbro) uses the "Planned Obsolescence Model" (POM) to full effect. They release an edition, and then crank out another edition a few years later.

WoTC has been a subsidiary of Hasbro for a very long time, and that's relevant to everything they do.

* WoTC acquires D&D as a brand (announces purchase of TSR in 1997)
* 3e published in 2000 (2e phased out)
* 3.5 published in 2003 (3e phased out)
* 4e published in 2008 (3.5 phased out)
* 4e Essentials published in 2010 (4e core and Essentials are not exactly the same, and the core of 4e has radically changed after a few years from being endlessly errata'd anyway)
* 5e published in 2014 (4e and Essentials phased out)

This isn't even acknowledging the edition treadmill that existed before this point.

Does anyone really believe that 5e is immune to the "Planned Obsolescence Model"? I don't. It's just another dead edition walking.

Honestly, I'm just wondering what 6e will be like.

Quote from: Tetsubo;857053Come on over to Usenet, we still have a dnd group. :)

Like a single post a day now... I remember when rec.games.frp.dnd would get like five hundred new posts a day. I'd have to spend a couple hours just scrolling the threads to find interesting ones.

Now all that is still there, mostly at Reddit now...

Quote from: GameDaddy;857093Like a single post a day now... I remember when rec.games.frp.dnd would get like five hundred new posts a day. I'd have to spend a couple hours just scrolling the threads to find interesting ones.

Now all that is still there, mostly at Reddit now...

I'll visit the Usenet group until I'm the last one there. I want nothing to do with Reddit.

Quote from: Satyrn;856375*reconsiders his custom title*

Hey, welcome to theRPGsite!

Quote from: GameDaddy;857093Like a single post a day now... I remember when rec.games.frp.dnd would get like five hundred new posts a day. I'd have to spend a couple hours just scrolling the threads to find interesting ones.

Now all that is still there, mostly at Reddit now...

Well, that's depressing.

Quote from: Celestial;858100Well, that's depressing.

Don't be down; 400 of those posts were from troll posts from werebat.

Quote from: Celestial;858100Well, that's depressing.

A situation that is completely under our control. Want more traffic on the dnd Usenet list? Post material.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;858101Don't be down; 400 of those posts were from troll posts from werebat.

Wow. A name I haven't seen in years. I blocked him so long ago I'd forgotten he existed. We still have Shawn Wilson to plague us however. The best 'economist' to ever visit the list.