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Everything I've been looking at tells me this. It seems pretty foolish of them, to be making such radical changes, with a lack of careful consulation.

Ed Greenwood made a very politely worded non-controversial public statement where he basically washed his hands of all the changes and reminded people that he has no control over what Baker & co. over at Wizards do to the realms, and reminded people that they can always keep playing in the pre-change realms.
(if that's not a secretly damning condemnation, I don't know what is)

Meanwhile, Wizards announces that they're not going to fast forward Eberron's timeline because they "listen to their fans". This is easily the most boneheaded thing of all so far, seeing as how they will now have hundreds of pissed off FR fans who are upset about the timeline shift they're going to do there, and Wizards has just effectively told them all that they care more about Eberron and its fans than about the Realms.

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what else are they going to do, really?  a new edition changes fundamental elements in the system, be it kits, prestige classes, sorcerers, etc.

you could tell the change is coming by reading the blurbs on the flap of the new salvatore drizzt book, too.  i remember looking at it in the bookstore and it practically screamed "end of this trilogy = setting revamp!!1!"  

but since i'm not a FR fan or reader of salvatore's stuff, it just gets a "meh" from me.

It can go both ways. If they take away the dead wood and add some new, inspiring stuff for the players to run wild with it, why not?

So, as a percentage, does anyone know roughly how many people play Eberron compared to FR ?

TNE put me off Traveller for ages but that was because I'd played the classic black books. I've never played in the FR  so it gets a 'meh' from me too,  as long as the ramifications of the spellplague have been thought out it might work, rather than just YEAR ZERO = COOL !

Quote from: beeberwhat else are they going to do, really?  a new edition changes fundamental elements in the system, be it kits, prestige classes, sorcerers, etc.

It has. But does it have to?

I personally would like to see much less edition churn. There tends to be churn because different people work on successive editions, and with them different designer philosophies come and go.

But I'm one of those setting-centered GMs that Jrients rants about in his blog. Every time an over-zealous designer team takes a wrecking ball to the game, I'm left playing catch-up in seeing that my vision is supported in game terms.

I appreciate making the game better, but for every edition change, it seems like there are more changes that are wild hairs in the designer's ass than real improvements. (Succubus = devil, erineyes *poof*, for example.) I think designers should go into the game design with limiting churn as a goal.

Eh.  Let 'em.  My existing books ain't gonna disappear, right?

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Eh.  Let 'em.  My existing books ain't gonna disappear, right?

naw, that feature doesn't happen until the release of 5th edition

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Eh.  Let 'em.  My existing books ain't gonna disappear, right?

no, and 3.5 books will be cheap as chips once they're off the Shelf of New Important High-Selling D&D stuff at my local store !

Quote from: RPGPunditEverything I've been looking at tells me this. It seems pretty foolish of them, to be making such radical changes, with a lack of careful consulation.

Ed Greenwood made a very politely worded non-controversial public statement where he basically washed his hands of all the changes and reminded people that he has no control over what Baker & co. over at Wizards do to the realms, and reminded people that they can always keep playing in the pre-change realms.
(if that's not a secretly damning condemnation, I don't know what is)

Meanwhile, Wizards announces that they're not going to fast forward Eberron's timeline because they "listen to their fans".

Spin, spin.

Erik Mona put forth a pretty reasonable rationale on why this might be: D&D comes with a lot of baggage that could interfere with developers of new software gaming licenses.

And guess what the first software gaming license announced for the 4e era is? FR.

So yeah, as long as there's not a big Eberron game in the hopper, let's spin it as "us listening to the customers." Oy.

I wonder if we are moving into an era where computer games drive the RPG much like the repugnant era when novels drove the RPG.

Quote from: RPGPunditMeanwhile, Wizards announces that they're not going to fast forward Eberron's timeline because they "listen to their fans". This is easily the most boneheaded thing of all so far, seeing as how they will now have hundreds of pissed off FR fans who are upset about the timeline shift they're going to do there, and Wizards has just effectively told them all that they care more about Eberron and its fans than about the Realms.

RPGPundit

Isn't that rather because Eberron has been ditched as the default setting, with FR taking its place? So, more a matter of not investing any more creative effort (misguided or not) into a setting that's slated to fade anyway? Vice versa, FR gets the sexy makeover because it's the new focus.

It's not new. I mean, the whole novels that redid the gods and what not when they moved from 1E to 2E?
Yeah. Been there done that.

So what exactly are these changes? A link would be most helpful.

Honestly I can see a fast forward in the setting.  If for anything to give writers a less cramped setting to make material for.  After a while things can get a little convoluted if everything is kept in the same static setting (the Vampire: TM setting really got bad with this).

So if they are smart they will keep some of the stuff that folks like, shake off what everyone seems to ignore and open up some room to flex the setting muscles once again.

Quote from: SeanSo, as a percentage, does anyone know roughly how many people play Eberron compared to FR ?

I'm sure that there's far more who play FR.

RPGPundit

Quote from: DrewSo what exactly are these changes? A link would be most helpful.

I don't know if there's more info out yet, but a while ago I posted this (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=134245&postcount=26) and this (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=134535&postcount=50) .

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeI don't know if there's more info out yet, but a while ago I posted this (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=134245&postcount=26) and this (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=134535&postcount=50) .

Oh shit. Now I remember. The fucking spellspaz apocalypse.

Thanks for the info anyway. :)

Quote from: Caesar SlaadBut I'm one of those setting-centered GMs that Jrients rants about in his blog.

I rant about setting-centered GMs?  Sorry, man.  Next time I say something that gets a burr up your butt just call me out on it.  I don't bite.

As I already said on the AD&DHoldout-Blog:

QuoteThere´s a serious playstyle switch being force upon the Realms.

The Wilderlands and other Sandbox style campaign are great. But they don´t lend themselves well to political gaming. The realms used to support a politics/mystery heavy D&D experience.
Now it´s Daiklaive (sp?) & Sorcery even for the Realms.

Although I really dig "Points of Light" as a concept and for my own campaigns, the loss of the unique strengths of the Realms is a net loss in diversity for D&D.

Meh.

I'm getting to the point where I don't care.

Quote from: SilverlionIt's not new. I mean, the whole novels that redid the gods and what not when they moved from 1E to 2E?
Yeah. Been there done that.

I don't know - this reminds me a lot more of what 2e did to Greyhawk and the whole "From the Ashes" thing.

Of course, From the Ashes was a financial disaster wheras the new realms book is more likely to make money.

Quote from: RPGPunditI'm sure that there's far more who play FR.

RPGPundit

Truthfully - neither one of those settings is selling very well at the moment. I admit that might change tho.

Most of our customers seem to make up thir own settings.

The ones that do use one of those two settings tend to get into arguments about them with their players.  (and I refuse to play referee for those arguments. Thats too geeky for even me. )

I like the trains thing of Eberron. Personally, do not yet own a version of FORGOTTEN REALMS.

- Ed C.

It was a really good setting till about halfway through 2e (A DM could pretty much ignore the changes due to the ToT, and still be able to use most of the material released) when it started getting tied in too closely with the line of novels. Almost all of the 3e releases have been tied in to lame meta-plot elements that have turned the setting into one giant railroad.

The 4e changes will basically make FR a completely new setting nullifying all the old gaming supplements. The official attitude on the FR mailing list is "If you don't like the changes STFU and leave."

Quote from: jgantsI don't know - this reminds me a lot more of what 2e did to Greyhawk and the whole "From the Ashes" thing.

Of course, From the Ashes was a financial disaster wheras the new realms book is more likely to make money.

We'll see about that.

See here's the thing, I loved From the Ashes, I thought it was easily the best version of Greyhawk ever.

Its pretty possible that I might love this new FR too, certainly I think anything that distances FR from some of the massive complications and stupidities it built up over the 2e era would be a good thing.

But I do suspect that it would be a financial disaster for them. Its the awful burden of any setting as old as FR, be it in the RPG world or the Comics: fanboys want the illusion of "big changes" happening in the setting, but they certainly do NOT want anything to actually change in any meaningful way.

RPGPundit

I wonder if they've been looking at sales figures on Midnight?

Anyhow, it could go either way.TNE did indeed destroy Traveller in a way from which it's never recovered.  Given my own feelings on the matter one can only hope we'll see a similar result from this.

But, there's always a chance it could fly.  I've always said "3e sucks" so if 4e is a better game (IMAO) and the new realms makes the place interesting instead of bland and insipid, maybe it'll fly.  On the other hand, me liking a game tends to be its death knell.

So, if a person were for once to ignore their intuition, which 25 years of experience have proven to be 153.02% accurate, and open their mind long enough to purchase a single FR product: which product should that person get?

The AD&D1E box? (Seems to come with 2 different cover images--is content identical?) How sparse is it compared to ye olde Greyhawk box? As sparse? Slightly less?

Quote from: RPGPunditWe'll see about that.

See here's the thing, I loved From the Ashes, I thought it was easily the best version of Greyhawk ever.

Its pretty possible that I might love this new FR too, certainly I think anything that distances FR from some of the massive complications and stupidities it built up over the 2e era would be a good thing.

It should probably also be remembered that the RPGA is going to start up Living Forgotten Realms once 4E comes out, and that they are trying to tweak the Realms so that 4E products, novels, computer games and Living campaigns can all influence the setting, without any particular niche feeling that it's being sidelined.

Certainly, it would be very difficult to run Living FR in the Realms' current form; with ludicrously powerful NPCs like Drizzt and Elminster on the side of good, it will be difficult for players to feel that the major events of the campaign are especially important - "Why should we be worried about this when we know that Elminster will sort it out anyhow?" Advancing the timeline to a point where Elminster and co. are long dead would be a neat solution to this.

I would be willing to bet, in fact, that the Living campaign is one of the major reasons why they've decided to go for a major setting shift. It's probably not the only reason, but I suspect it was a factor, and may have been a big enough factor to tip the scales.

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySo, if a person were for once to ignore their intuition, which 25 years of experience have proven to be 153.02% accurate, and open their mind long enough to purchase a single FR product: which product should that person get?

Depends on what the person wants.

I use the old grey box in conjuction with a bunch of the 3.x stuff, but to be quite frank, many's the time I've looked at the 1st Ed. boxed set and said, "That'll do, Pig."

No pig being present, I blush a bit.  But not much.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!Depends on what the person wants.

Maximum bang for buck, but free of metaplot.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityMaximum bang for buck, but free of metaplot.

The person may want Ye Olde Gray Box.

Maps, capsule descriptions, a little history, some NPC names, general ideas, some spells, couple dungeons, deities, so on.  Flavorful but not overflowing.  Sandboxy.

Quote from: RPGPunditSee here's the thing, I loved From the Ashes, I thought it was easily the best version of Greyhawk ever.

HOLY SHIT! I just found the one other person out there that liked this boxed set! *sniffle* I... I always thought I was alone.

Quote from: Dr Rotwang!The person may want Ye Olde Gray Box.

Maps, capsule descriptions, a little history, some NPC names, general ideas, some spells, couple dungeons, deities, so on.  Flavorful but not overflowing.  Sandboxy.

Agreed. That's what I prefer to think of when people mention the Realms. That's when it was an awesome setting. No uber-characters shifting the setting, a vast, untamed land with pockets of civilization, and no over-arching metaplots. Thems was the days.

-=Grim=-

Just to be clear, by "gray box" do you guys mean this thing?--

http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=5042

Because there's another box with a different image. Is the image the only difference? Or is that the 2E version?

And although there are bits of plot, they exist (to my mind) more as adventure seeds.  

To wit: The siege of Dragonspear Castle.  In Realms lore (and the 1st Ed. box), the place becomes a portal to the Boogeyverser (or whatever), and demons spill out and attack the countryside.  So Waterdeep sends soldiers to shut the party down and there's a siege and killin's and stuff and it drags out for a few months.

Sure, there's eventually a resolution.  But any good GM will get that far and say, "Okay!  I have tonight's game!"

Worked for me.  I got 3 sessions out of it!

EDIT: I mean this one:

(http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/fr/frbox.jpg)

Quote from: GrimJestaAgreed. That's what I prefer to think of when people mention the Realms. That's when it was an awesome setting. No uber-characters shifting the setting, a vast, untamed land with pockets of civilization, and no over-arching metaplots. Thems was the days.

Sounds like that's what they're going back to. My guess is that the Spellplague is going to kill off - or render impotent - Mystra, the Simbal, Elminster and all of that gang, and cause enough collateral damage that civilisation collapses. New 4E set picks up a generation later, when all the uber-NPCs are dead, and whammo! Big setting reset, massive spring-cleaning of over-used and tired-out setting elements, exciting new concept for Living Realms players to dig into, and something which closely resembles both the original boxed set and the new D&D assumed setting.

At least, I hope so. A new edition of the Realms which still has Elminster and Drizzt knocking around would be one hell of a wasted opportunity.

Quote from: WarthurSounds like that's what they're going back to. My guess is that the Spellplague is going to kill off - or render impotent - Mystra, the Simbal, Elminster and all of that gang, and cause enough collateral damage that civilisation collapses. New 4E set picks up a generation later, when all the uber-NPCs are dead, and whammo! Big setting reset, massive spring-cleaning of over-used and tired-out setting elements, exciting new concept for Living Realms players to dig into, and something which closely resembles both the original boxed set and the new D&D assumed setting.

At least, I hope so. A new edition of the Realms which still has Elminster and Drizzt knocking around would be one hell of a wasted opportunity.

I'd rather that someone, somewhere, finally stops the international poker game of power-politics, forces the resolution and sparks a disastrous global war that blows up everything.  I'd like it even more if one of the Good Guys did it.

Quote from: WarthurI would be willing to bet, in fact, that the Living campaign is one of the major reasons why they've decided to go for a major setting shift. It's probably not the only reason, but I suspect it was a factor, and may have been a big enough factor to tip the scales.

I'm with you - this is the real main reason behind it. Oh, and this:

Quote from: WarthurSounds like that's what they're going back to. My guess is that the Spellplague is going to kill off - or render impotent - Mystra, the Simbal, Elminster and all of that gang, and cause enough collateral damage that civilisation collapses. New 4E set picks up a generation later, when all the uber-NPCs are dead, and whammo! Big setting reset, massive spring-cleaning of over-used and tired-out setting elements, exciting new concept for Living Realms players to dig into, and something which closely resembles both the original boxed set and the new D&D assumed setting.

...and enhances the "points of light" direction, and, most importantly IMHO, it allows them to realign the magic system to handle the shift away from Vancian-focused magic...

I'd far rather they rewrote the 4E Realms from the ground up instead of trying to shoehorn it's current chronology into the new game. It'd be a lot cleaner and lend greater scope for change.

Quote from: DrewI'd far rather they rewrote the 4E Realms from the ground up instead of trying to shoehorn it's current chronology into the new game. It'd be a lot cleaner and lend greater scope for change.

I agree, but I don't think it's ever likely to happen. Setting fans tend to be enormous continuity freaks who get upset if total slash-and-burns are applied to their favourite settings.

Quote from: WarthurI agree, but I don't think it's ever likely to happen. Setting fans tend to be enormous continuity freaks who get upset if total slash-and-burns are applied to their favourite settings.

You're absoloutely right, unfortunately.

The only way I could think of marketing it is by saying the new Realms are heavily inspired by their progenitor, but for practical purposes should be considered an entirely new setting. Kind of like the oWoD/nWoD split White Wolf pulled.

It's unlikely even that would work, but a man can dream...;)

I think some published campaign settings occasionally need spring-cleaning of the sort Wizards seem to be planning for the Realms precisely to avoid having to make drastic splits like what happened with the oWoD/nWoD transition - especially those settings which have new material published for them on a particularly frequent basis, like the Realms. There comes a point where they accumulate so much continuity, canon, backstory and secrets that it's nigh-impossible for people new to the setting to get a handle on what's going on (and difficult on the wallet and on the schedule for those who are into the setting to keep up with it). The oWoD ended up so hideously overburdened with canon that it was incredibly unapproachable, and many of the products they published towards the end simply made no sense unless you'd bought a dozen others.

Quote from: WarthurI think some published campaign settings occasionally need spring-cleaning of the sort Wizards seem to be planning for the Realms precisely to avoid having to make drastic splits like what happened with the oWoD/nWoD transition - especially those settings which have new material published for them on a particularly frequent basis, like the Realms. There comes a point where they accumulate so much continuity, canon, backstory and secrets that it's nigh-impossible for people new to the setting to get a handle on what's going on (and difficult on the wallet and on the schedule for those who are into the setting to keep up with it). The oWoD ended up so hideously overburdened with canon that it was incredibly unapproachable, and many of the products they published towards the end simply made no sense unless you'd bought a dozen others.

The biggest problem I can foresee is the Spellplague causing exactly those problems you mention. In order to describe what's new they'll need to describe what came before, including the 'how' and the 'why' of the paradigm shift. If they don't, and decide to just gloss over the process then they might as well have just rebooted the whole thing and called it the New FR.

It depends what spin they put on it. If they say "The Realms is only just recovering from the terrible Spellplague, there's Waterdeep and a few other Points of Light but nobody really knows what the situation is beyond those, enough time has passed that all the old canon NPCs have passed on and the Spellplague destroyed most of the more plot-heavy organisations in the setting" it'd be a decent basis for a reset. I suspect that there may be some at Wizards who advocated a total rebooting but they're probably too afraid that fans will reject it en masse.

Quote from: WarthurIt depends what spin they put on it. If they say "The Realms is only just recovering from the terrible Spellplague, there's Waterdeep and a few other Points of Light but nobody really knows what the situation is beyond those, enough time has passed that all the old canon NPCs have passed on and the Spellplague destroyed most of the more plot-heavy organisations in the setting" it'd be a decent basis for a reset. I suspect that there may be some at Wizards who advocated a total rebooting but they're probably too afraid that fans will reject it en masse.

If that's what we do end up with then I suspect the hue and cry from 'true' fans will be louder than anything caused by a full reboot. Continuity arguments will wrangle on for years, and everyone will be asking what happened to their favourite prestige class, or why fighters now have all these kick arse powers.  

It'll be interesting to witness, if nothing else.

as long as this spellplague offs mystra, wouldn't that take care of the biggest mary sue-isms out there?  then they don't have to kill off elminster, etc.  as far as drizzt tho, bust his swords?  just trying to think how one could power down the major players w/o offing them and presumably ticking off the huge fanbase.  

personally i'd have cthulhu eat mystra, and then say "hastur" 3 times. . . . :D

Quote from: beeberas long as this spellplague offs mystra, wouldn't that take care of the biggest mary sue-isms out there?  then they don't have to kill off elminster, etc.

Actually, IIRC Elminster has a close (one might say "intimate") metaphysical connection with Mystra: anything that offs her is probably going to get him, the Simbul, and the rest of that band too.

Quoteas far as drizzt tho, bust his swords?  just trying to think how one could power down the major players w/o offing them and presumably ticking off the huge fanbase.

It depends; if they move the timeline forward far enough they can say "Drizzt fought a valiant but losing battle against the encroaching darkness, and bought precious time for the few Points of Light to establish themselves, perishing heroically somewhere beyond our ken". That'll give plenty of scope for Salvatore to write Drizzt novels out the wazoo, set between the 3.5E and 4E iterations of the setting, but will nicely write Drizzt out of the setting itself.

Quote from: RPGPunditIts the awful burden of any setting as old as FR, be it in the RPG world or the Comics: fanboys want the illusion of "big changes" happening in the setting, but they certainly do NOT want anything to actually change in any meaningful way.

Yep.  Also, big changes are likely to drive away current fans but small changes won't be enough to attract former fans.

Quote from: WarthurActually, IIRC Elminster has a close (one might say "intimate") metaphysical connection with Mystra: anything that offs her is probably going to get him, the Simbul, and the rest of that band too.



It depends; if they move the timeline forward far enough they can say "Drizzt fought a valiant but losing battle against the encroaching darkness, and bought precious time for the few Points of Light to establish themselves, perishing heroically somewhere beyond our ken". That'll give plenty of scope for Salvatore to write Drizzt novels out the wazoo, set between the 3.5E and 4E iterations of the setting, but will nicely write Drizzt out of the setting itself.

you think they'd actually do such a fast-forward?  how many years would you have to jump to allow a moneymaker author like salvatore to have a good cushion for "the unknown adventures of drizzt" or whatever?

it's funny, i have only a passing interest (if that) of FR but i'm looking forward much more to what WotC does to it as opposed to any interest in what 4E turns out to be. :raise:

Quote from: WarthurIt depends what spin they put on it. If they say "The Realms is only just recovering from the terrible Spellplague, there's Waterdeep and a few other Points of Light but nobody really knows what the situation is beyond those, enough time has passed that all the old canon NPCs have passed on and the Spellplague destroyed most of the more plot-heavy organisations in the setting" it'd be a decent basis for a reset. I suspect that there may be some at Wizards who advocated a total rebooting but they're probably too afraid that fans will reject it en masse.

As someone else mentioned, this would be interesting to see play out as it would make the current fans probably more crazed than those who thought the realms had gone off the deep end.

As I am one of the latter, it might be enough to make me take a second look.

Oh - and as for Drizzt - just remember that the way the BoNS works is fucking perfect to explain Drizzt's abilities - far better than anything in 2nd or 3rd editions.  So, if the BoNS is the direction they are heading (and the "empowerment" of the lowly fighter), why would they fast-forward out the best written example of the system they are implementing? IMHO, YMMV, etc...

This makes me wonder - was FR, as a novel setting, ever a good mesh for D&D?  Are they attempting to move the system to better support/represent the most successful novels/IP they have? It would be a smart move - kind of like writing the biggest RPG for a licensed product. Hmmm...