Just to be clear, by "gray box" do you guys mean this thing?--

http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=5042

Because there's another box with a different image. Is the image the only difference? Or is that the 2E version?

And although there are bits of plot, they exist (to my mind) more as adventure seeds.  

To wit: The siege of Dragonspear Castle.  In Realms lore (and the 1st Ed. box), the place becomes a portal to the Boogeyverser (or whatever), and demons spill out and attack the countryside.  So Waterdeep sends soldiers to shut the party down and there's a siege and killin's and stuff and it drags out for a few months.

Sure, there's eventually a resolution.  But any good GM will get that far and say, "Okay!  I have tonight's game!"

Worked for me.  I got 3 sessions out of it!

EDIT: I mean this one:

Quote from: GrimJestaAgreed. That's what I prefer to think of when people mention the Realms. That's when it was an awesome setting. No uber-characters shifting the setting, a vast, untamed land with pockets of civilization, and no over-arching metaplots. Thems was the days.

Sounds like that's what they're going back to. My guess is that the Spellplague is going to kill off - or render impotent - Mystra, the Simbal, Elminster and all of that gang, and cause enough collateral damage that civilisation collapses. New 4E set picks up a generation later, when all the uber-NPCs are dead, and whammo! Big setting reset, massive spring-cleaning of over-used and tired-out setting elements, exciting new concept for Living Realms players to dig into, and something which closely resembles both the original boxed set and the new D&D assumed setting.

At least, I hope so. A new edition of the Realms which still has Elminster and Drizzt knocking around would be one hell of a wasted opportunity.

Quote from: WarthurSounds like that's what they're going back to. My guess is that the Spellplague is going to kill off - or render impotent - Mystra, the Simbal, Elminster and all of that gang, and cause enough collateral damage that civilisation collapses. New 4E set picks up a generation later, when all the uber-NPCs are dead, and whammo! Big setting reset, massive spring-cleaning of over-used and tired-out setting elements, exciting new concept for Living Realms players to dig into, and something which closely resembles both the original boxed set and the new D&D assumed setting.

At least, I hope so. A new edition of the Realms which still has Elminster and Drizzt knocking around would be one hell of a wasted opportunity.

I'd rather that someone, somewhere, finally stops the international poker game of power-politics, forces the resolution and sparks a disastrous global war that blows up everything.  I'd like it even more if one of the Good Guys did it.

Quote from: WarthurI would be willing to bet, in fact, that the Living campaign is one of the major reasons why they've decided to go for a major setting shift. It's probably not the only reason, but I suspect it was a factor, and may have been a big enough factor to tip the scales.

I'm with you - this is the real main reason behind it. Oh, and this:

Quote from: WarthurSounds like that's what they're going back to. My guess is that the Spellplague is going to kill off - or render impotent - Mystra, the Simbal, Elminster and all of that gang, and cause enough collateral damage that civilisation collapses. New 4E set picks up a generation later, when all the uber-NPCs are dead, and whammo! Big setting reset, massive spring-cleaning of over-used and tired-out setting elements, exciting new concept for Living Realms players to dig into, and something which closely resembles both the original boxed set and the new D&D assumed setting.

...and enhances the "points of light" direction, and, most importantly IMHO, it allows them to realign the magic system to handle the shift away from Vancian-focused magic...

I'd far rather they rewrote the 4E Realms from the ground up instead of trying to shoehorn it's current chronology into the new game. It'd be a lot cleaner and lend greater scope for change.

Quote from: DrewI'd far rather they rewrote the 4E Realms from the ground up instead of trying to shoehorn it's current chronology into the new game. It'd be a lot cleaner and lend greater scope for change.

I agree, but I don't think it's ever likely to happen. Setting fans tend to be enormous continuity freaks who get upset if total slash-and-burns are applied to their favourite settings.

Quote from: WarthurI agree, but I don't think it's ever likely to happen. Setting fans tend to be enormous continuity freaks who get upset if total slash-and-burns are applied to their favourite settings.

You're absoloutely right, unfortunately.

The only way I could think of marketing it is by saying the new Realms are heavily inspired by their progenitor, but for practical purposes should be considered an entirely new setting. Kind of like the oWoD/nWoD split White Wolf pulled.

It's unlikely even that would work, but a man can dream...

I think some published campaign settings occasionally need spring-cleaning of the sort Wizards seem to be planning for the Realms precisely to avoid having to make drastic splits like what happened with the oWoD/nWoD transition - especially those settings which have new material published for them on a particularly frequent basis, like the Realms. There comes a point where they accumulate so much continuity, canon, backstory and secrets that it's nigh-impossible for people new to the setting to get a handle on what's going on (and difficult on the wallet and on the schedule for those who are into the setting to keep up with it). The oWoD ended up so hideously overburdened with canon that it was incredibly unapproachable, and many of the products they published towards the end simply made no sense unless you'd bought a dozen others.

Quote from: WarthurI think some published campaign settings occasionally need spring-cleaning of the sort Wizards seem to be planning for the Realms precisely to avoid having to make drastic splits like what happened with the oWoD/nWoD transition - especially those settings which have new material published for them on a particularly frequent basis, like the Realms. There comes a point where they accumulate so much continuity, canon, backstory and secrets that it's nigh-impossible for people new to the setting to get a handle on what's going on (and difficult on the wallet and on the schedule for those who are into the setting to keep up with it). The oWoD ended up so hideously overburdened with canon that it was incredibly unapproachable, and many of the products they published towards the end simply made no sense unless you'd bought a dozen others.

The biggest problem I can foresee is the Spellplague causing exactly those problems you mention. In order to describe what's new they'll need to describe what came before, including the 'how' and the 'why' of the paradigm shift. If they don't, and decide to just gloss over the process then they might as well have just rebooted the whole thing and called it the New FR.

It depends what spin they put on it. If they say "The Realms is only just recovering from the terrible Spellplague, there's Waterdeep and a few other Points of Light but nobody really knows what the situation is beyond those, enough time has passed that all the old canon NPCs have passed on and the Spellplague destroyed most of the more plot-heavy organisations in the setting" it'd be a decent basis for a reset. I suspect that there may be some at Wizards who advocated a total rebooting but they're probably too afraid that fans will reject it en masse.

Quote from: WarthurIt depends what spin they put on it. If they say "The Realms is only just recovering from the terrible Spellplague, there's Waterdeep and a few other Points of Light but nobody really knows what the situation is beyond those, enough time has passed that all the old canon NPCs have passed on and the Spellplague destroyed most of the more plot-heavy organisations in the setting" it'd be a decent basis for a reset. I suspect that there may be some at Wizards who advocated a total rebooting but they're probably too afraid that fans will reject it en masse.

If that's what we do end up with then I suspect the hue and cry from 'true' fans will be louder than anything caused by a full reboot. Continuity arguments will wrangle on for years, and everyone will be asking what happened to their favourite prestige class, or why fighters now have all these kick arse powers.  

It'll be interesting to witness, if nothing else.

as long as this spellplague offs mystra, wouldn't that take care of the biggest mary sue-isms out there?  then they don't have to kill off elminster, etc.  as far as drizzt tho, bust his swords?  just trying to think how one could power down the major players w/o offing them and presumably ticking off the huge fanbase.  

personally i'd have cthulhu eat mystra, and then say "hastur" 3 times. . . .

Quote from: beeberas long as this spellplague offs mystra, wouldn't that take care of the biggest mary sue-isms out there?  then they don't have to kill off elminster, etc.

Actually, IIRC Elminster has a close (one might say "intimate") metaphysical connection with Mystra: anything that offs her is probably going to get him, the Simbul, and the rest of that band too.

Quoteas far as drizzt tho, bust his swords?  just trying to think how one could power down the major players w/o offing them and presumably ticking off the huge fanbase.

It depends; if they move the timeline forward far enough they can say "Drizzt fought a valiant but losing battle against the encroaching darkness, and bought precious time for the few Points of Light to establish themselves, perishing heroically somewhere beyond our ken". That'll give plenty of scope for Salvatore to write Drizzt novels out the wazoo, set between the 3.5E and 4E iterations of the setting, but will nicely write Drizzt out of the setting itself.

Quote from: RPGPunditIts the awful burden of any setting as old as FR, be it in the RPG world or the Comics: fanboys want the illusion of "big changes" happening in the setting, but they certainly do NOT want anything to actually change in any meaningful way.

Yep.  Also, big changes are likely to drive away current fans but small changes won't be enough to attract former fans.