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I don't know if this is a marketting stunt or a mea culpa by WotC in regards to D&D Next. The PA Report details. (http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/wizards-of-the-coast-is-about-to-start-a-massive-global-game-of-dd-to-resha)

Quote from: PA ArticleWizards of the Coast is about to start a massive, global game of D&D to reshape the realm
There has come a great conflict in the lands of Dungeons & Dragons. An event called the Spellplague struck the Forgotten Realms, and fundamentally changed the world. The very source of magic was weakened. The over-god, Ao, broke the Tablets of Faith, and is no longer protecting the land.

Chaos had struck, but amid all of the calamity of merging worlds and divine politics there was one problem that emerged above all others and posed the greatest threat for the realm: the fans didn't like it. Now, Wizards of the Coast is enlisting the help of their players in putting the realm back together.

The roll back
Fan disapproval seems to be at the heart of a new year-long event that's being launched today by Wizards of the Coast within the Dungeons & Dragons universe called "The Sundering." This event will restore D&D's most popular setting, The Forgotten Realms, back to its original style, all the while introducing quite a few new changes as well.

"Our main goal with the Sundering was to bring The Forgotten Realms back to the fan favorite fantasy setting that it always was," said Nathan Stewart, brand director for Dungeons & Dragons. "Our intent here was to create an event and a story that was fun for any player, that was a great backbone for high fantasy fans across the board. But for the really enfranchised player we wanted to do some things within The Forgotten Realms to bring the universe back to what they really were most happy with."

Stewart said that while the changes introduced in the Spellplague were great for the stories they were telling three to four years ago, they just didn't resonate with fans in the way they wanted.

"You could tell that they weren't in love with the changes," he said. "You want to be a hero and have sort of super human strength, but you also want gods above you who have even more power."

The Spellplague removed much of that dynamic, but The Sundering aims to replace it while giving players a hand in shaping the future outcome. In essence, Wizards of the Coast is about to start a massive game of D&D with its entire community to help determine the future course of the brand.

New gods
"The gods who were in charge before, might not be in charge anymore," said Stewart. "The gods believe that as Ao is putting back the tablets of faith, whoever has the most followers will be in charge. That at the end of the Sundering event, those gods will be in higher power. So they have their 'Chosen' out there on the planet doing their bidding so that when everything finishes with the shake-up, they'll be in a higher power position within the pantheon of gods."

"But they're sort of hedging their bets," he continued. "It's a gamble. That might not be how Ao is going to put the pantheon back together."

In The Sundering, players will be able to participate through a number of mediums including the pencil-and-paper RPG and competing in a free-to-play mobile game. A piece of The Sundering will even play out at the annual "Acquisitions Inc" live Dungeons and Dragons PAX event where Penny Arcade's own Mike Krahulik and Jerry Holkins may have the power to impact the fate of the Forgotten Realms.

In the mobile game, players can fight for their god of choice. The tale of the Sundering will also be told through six novels that will be released throughout the year, starting today, by several well-established D&D authors such as R.A. Salvatore.

But the pencil-and-paper players seem to be the people who will really determine the outcome here.

After each game at community events called Encounters, which take place at hobby shops and game stores, players will be able to report what happened in their game, the choices they made, the outcomes, etc. Players can also report their own games happenings through an app called The Sundering Adventurer's Chronicle.

If there's someone in distress and the bulk of the community killed that person instead of saving them, that may have an impact. If there's a gem that the bulk of the community chooses to steal instead of returning to a Duke, that may have ramifications. Wizards of the Coast isn't saying what parts of the story are going to have a wide-ranging impact.

"It's really the first time we've let your pencil-and-paper play shape the canon," said Stewart. "So the changes that are going to happen are partly going to shape the world. The fate of Faerun is going to be in the hands of the heroes."

Sounds good in theory, as I think the Spellplague was a change to the realm nobody asked for, wanted, or needed.

I'm not sure I like the "design by the fans" aspect.  I think letting too many people influence the fate leads to problems--I think Greyhawk lost a lot of its identity that way when its fate was taken over by the RPGA.

They should just let Greenwood, Salvatore, and a few other key players work to bring it back to what fans consider classic FR.

I really liked the 1st edition FR grey box set.  I enjoyed the first few books that came out for FR- Darkwalker on Moonshae and Icewind Dale trilogy.  Everything after that kinda went downhill for me.

Would be nice to see something cool come out of this, but not holding my breath.

I have never really understood the "objective canon" concept for a fantasy world.

Whenever I want to game in the Realms I can pick and choose what stuff to use for the campaign. Whatever gets decided by a bunch of other groups doesn't affect my campaign.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;677976I have never really understood the "objective canon" concept for a fantasy world.

Whenever I want to game in the Realms I can pick and choose what stuff to use for the campaign. Whatever gets decided by a bunch of other groups doesn't affect my campaign.

This doesn't apply to the novels, which are probably more important to WotC than Forgotten Realms as a game setting.

If there wasn't novel continuity to deal with, they'd probably just reboot the game setting back to it's earlier state like they did with 4e Darksun.

"You could tell that they weren't in love with the changes," he said. "You want to be a hero and have sort of super human strength, but you also want gods above you who have even more power."

I think I just heard some noise coming from that other place that sounded like a baby crying... :)

So WotC's solution for the Spellplague is to double down on the metaplot bullshit by creating another event that shakes the setting to the core and elevates NPCs to the ranks of deities like... the Times of Trouble, which is the first meta-event that started this whole "canon" circle-jerking in the first place. LOL Some people will never learn, I guess.

Careful Ben, you'll kick yourself in the face if you knee-jerk any harder. :D

DC and Marvel know that "shaking up" the canon with "world changing events" is great for sales and that's why its done over and over. Forgotten Realms already has had God Wars before so its a good move.

The joke of course is what the bulk of the FR fanbase is never going to agree what is "Classic FR" because it all depends on whether you are more of a FR RPGer or FR novel reader or FR video game player.

I'm fairly sure that they're the Tablets of Fate.

Maybe WoTC should come out with a few different flavors of FR.  

1- here's how it was-
2- here's all the stuff after the first big shake up
3- here's all the stuff after the second big shake up
ect.

Quote from: RunningLaser;678011Maybe WoTC should come out with a few different flavors of FR.  

1- here's how it was-
2- here's all the stuff after the first big shake up
3- here's all the stuff after the second big shake up
ect.

That concept eludes them as far as rulesets go. Don't know why it would be any different with settings.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;677976I have never really understood the "objective canon" concept for a fantasy world.

Whenever I want to game in the Realms I can pick and choose what stuff to use for the campaign. Whatever gets decided by a bunch of other groups doesn't affect my campaign.

For gaming purposes I agree completely.

I recently picked up the 1e 'Grey Box' version of the FR, and was surprised by how much I liked it.  If I ever run a FR campaign, I'd focus on the 1e material, and the northwest region specifically (the Sword Coast + Moonshae Islands), which seems the most interesting.

Quote from: hexgrid;677998This doesn't apply to the novels, which are probably more important to WotC than Forgotten Realms as a game setting.

If there wasn't novel continuity to deal with, they'd probably just reboot the game setting back to it's earlier state like they did with 4e Darksun.

Yeah, it's the novels that are responsible (primarily) for the FR focus on 'canon' and 'continuity'.  Amazingly, there are people who only read the novels and could care less about FRPGs!  (I say 'amazingly' because I can't conceive of why anyone would be interested in the FR simply for its fiction.)

Quote from: RunningLaser;678011Maybe WoTC should come out with a few different flavors of FR.  

1- here's how it was-
2- here's all the stuff after the first big shake up
3- here's all the stuff after the second big shake up
ect.

I believe that Greenwood's own campaign takes place before the 'Time of Troubles' (or assumes that the Time of Troubles never took place).

Quote from: Akrasia;678056Yeah, it's the novels that are responsible (primarily) for the FR focus on 'canon' and 'continuity'.  Amazingly, there are people who only read the novels and could care less about FRPGs!  (I say 'amazingly' because I can't conceive of why anyone would be interested in the FR simply for its fiction.)

Yeah, it fills me with horror and sadness to consider that the Forgotten Realms novels are more commercially popular than the FR roleplay material, and perhaps more than D&D itself. For a 12 year old to read it as a supplement to playing D&D is one thing. To read that dreck for its own sake is appalling.

Quote from: Haffrung;678061Yeah, it fills me with horror and sadness to consider that the Forgotten Realms novels are more commercially popular than the FR roleplay material, and perhaps more than D&D itself. For a 12 year old to read it as a supplement to playing D&D is one thing. To read that dreck for its own sake is appalling.

How do you type with your nose held so high, and your pinky finger raised like that?

Quote from: Haffrung;678061Yeah, it fills me with horror and sadness to consider that the Forgotten Realms novels are more commercially popular than the FR roleplay material, and perhaps more than D&D itself. For a 12 year old to read it as a supplement to playing D&D is one thing. To read that dreck for its own sake is appalling.

A good buddy of mine's father is a rough and tumble southern trucker.  He's a great man with no D&D knowledge.   Years back, he asks my friend "I've been reading these great books about an elf named Drizzt.  Have you heard of him?"  My buddy silently screamed:)

At least he wasn't reading Spellfire.

Quote from: Mistwell;678068How do you type with your nose held so high, and your pinky finger raised like that?

I'm sure people looked down on Howard and Lovecraft because they were pulp writers which was about the same level of prestige in those days as writing gaming fiction is today, I guess.

Only the march of time will determine who will last...

You dont need to play out restoring the realms. Just put it back the way it was.

Poor Forgotten Realms...

The ultimate in design by committee. Expect the evilest of gods to win, with lots of spiky armor and name apostrophes. Pray that a Bubbahotep or Brosephus, god of keggers, doesn't slip in.

But I have a nice copy of grey box, so everything is OK. :)

Quote from: Mistwell;678068How do you type with your nose held so high, and your pinky finger raised like that?

Probably the same way I do.

By looking down his nose.

I prefer to look down my nose at all of you with my head turned at a slight sideways angle.

Although I'm sure Haffrung probably has his own method.

But, I'd have to compare technique with him at The Club later to be sure though...

.

To be fair, there are some very good FR novels. Sadly, there are also a whole bunch of really bad ones.

Just one more things that shows that 4e wasn't "real" D&D.  Now before people get their panties in a bunch, I'm not saying 4e is a bad game, or a bad rpg.  For all purposes, 4e is an excellent fantasy tactical rpg.  One of the best out there.

However, if you have to move/change/remove a ton of your brand identity, then you no longer have the same product.  Certain things, for better or worse, made D&D what it was.  They include things like Vancian magic, mundane class options, etc.  If you get rid of all those things that made D&D what it was, including the setting, and have to change all that radically, then you have a new standalone game, regardless of what it says on the cover.

New Coke might have said "Coca-Cola" on the bottle, but it sure as hell wasn't Coke.

The trouble with so many of the FR novels is that the author thinks that the protagonist should be the most pompous ass possible.

Which to be fair, isn't unknown in the fantasy fiction D&D is based on, Cugel and the Grey Mouser/Fafhrd are all major league dicks most of the time, and Conan flirted with that a lot.

Quote from: JRT;678080I'm sure people looked down on Howard and Lovecraft because they were pulp writers which was about the same level of prestige in those days as writing gaming fiction is today, I guess.

Only the march of time will determine who will last...

I wonder how many Haffrung's it took to turn Robert E. Howard to suicide in his generation?

Quote from: Mistwell;678209I wonder how many Haffrung's it took to turn Robert E. Howard to suicide in his generation?

Zero, but one mother.

Quote from: Rincewind1;678211Zero, but one mother.

Well certainly that played a meaningful role in what happened.  But I think Weird Tales getting behind on their payments to Howard was also a contributing smaller factor, along with Weird Tales readership never getting above 50K while other more mainstream short story authors got far more readers, mostly due to snobbish criticism of pulp like Weird Tales as classes rubbish intended for the lowest common denominator in society.

And one day slash fanfic will be truly appreciated for the brilliance it is.

This is awesome. It warms my heart.

Wotc has now admitted that:

1. 4e system sucked
2. 4e setting sucked

... and plan to back-pedal the entire 4e failed experiment.

Across the land, 4vengers are wallowing in rage and disbelief.

I like experiments.  If the current setting needs to be redeveloped then it might make an excellent venue to drum up interest and try something new in the process.  

Now whether this will be executed correctly is another matter.

I don't know if anyone has seen this interview with RA Salvatore. It's pretty interesting, specifically about the difference between how 4e addressed the Realms and how 5e is different.
RA Salvatore Interview (//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLf1hBUr9M4)

Short version: when he and Ed Greenwood got out of the meeting with Wizards back in 2006, they felt gutted. Management told these two guys who have been working in the Realms longer than anyone that they were going to do this fast forward, and they could get in line.  Bob told Ed to not worry, because in five years when they realized how badly they screwed up, Ed and Bob would have a game plan.

Fast forward to a couple years ago, when just that happened. He talks about how James Wyatt was telling them how badly 4e had gone off the rails (his words, not mine), and Bob Salvatore just says, 'it's cool, I got this.'

Nice interview.

His optimism for the future is infectious.

Frankly, this looks like a colossal clusterfuck born out of a fundamental misunderstanding of why Forgotten Realms fans didn't like what WotC did to the Forgotten Realms with 4E.

WotC's brand manager talks about restoring a "dynamic" of "gods above men" that was lost in 4E, apparently out of the belief that if they can restore this "dynamic" they'll have somehow fixed the problem.

But this lost "dynamic" is not what people were upset about.

See, people become fans of fictional settings because of the specific content of those settings. The familiarity of the setting is comforting and their mastery of the fictional lore of the setting is rewarding. The reason fans of the Forgotten Realms didn't like the Spellplague is because you blew up the setting: The specific content was eradicated. The familiarity was lost. And the fictional lore they had mastered became irrelevant. And it also made continuing existing Forgotten Realms campaigns (some of which people had been running for years or even decades) using the new material impossible.

Apparently they believe that they can solve this problem by blowing the setting up again. But that's not going to solve anything. They're just repeating the exact same mistake they made 5 years ago.

Quote from: Opaopajr;678118Poor Forgotten Realms...

The ultimate in design by committee. Expect the evilest of gods to win, with lots of spiky armor and name apostrophes. Pray that a Bubbahotep or Brosephus, god of keggers, doesn't slip in.

THEN I'd buy it.

JG

Obviously the answer is to restore Myrkul, Bane and Bhaal.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;678227Frankly, this looks like a colossal clusterfuck born out of a fundamental misunderstanding of why Forgotten Realms fans didn't like what WotC did to the Forgotten Realms with 4E.

WotC's brand manager talks about restoring a "dynamic" of "gods above men" that was lost in 4E, apparently out of the belief that if they can restore this "dynamic" they'll have somehow fixed the problem.

But this lost "dynamic" is not what people were upset about.

See, people become fans of fictional settings because of the specific content of those settings. The familiarity of the setting is comforting and their mastery of the fictional lore of the setting is rewarding. The reason fans of the Forgotten Realms didn't like the Spellplague is because you blew up the setting: The specific content was eradicated. The familiarity was lost. And the fictional lore they had mastered became irrelevant. And it also made continuing existing Forgotten Realms campaigns (some of which people had been running for years or even decades) using the new material impossible.

Apparently they believe that they can solve this problem by blowing the setting up again. But that's not going to solve anything. They're just repeating the exact same mistake they made 5 years ago.

Because they got away with "blowing up the setting" before with Time of Troubles, if not so severely, and for much the same reason: To adapt the setting to the new edition of rules.  It's just that much more obvious with New D&D because as I've said elsewhere, the last edition of FR was an attempt to cram the many-shaped pegs of Forgotten Realms into the round hole that is 4th Edition D&D.

It's somewhere between nostalgia and selective amnesia.

JG

Quote from: JonWake;678216I don't know if anyone has seen this interview with RA Salvatore. It's pretty interesting, specifically about the difference between how 4e addressed the Realms and how 5e is different.
RA Salvatore Interview (//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLf1hBUr9M4)

That interview says an whole lot about how bad 4E was bad for fans and WOTC.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;678227Apparently they believe that they can solve this problem by blowing the setting up again. But that's not going to solve anything. They're just repeating the exact same mistake they made 5 years ago.

The problem for WotC is that the post-Spell Plague Forgotten Realms has been a thud, but they can't undo it without another apocalyptic event (or so they think), and they cannot continue the setting in its current form (since it has alienated so many fans).

The reason for this has nothing to do with the FR as a RPG setting. If the FR were merely a RPG setting, a complete reboot might work.

The Spell Plague cannot be undone because of the Forgotten Realms novels.  The fiction line is (I'm quite certain) more profitable for WotC than the RPG line.  And WotC does not want to tell the fans of its Forgotten Realms novels: "Guys, those last 15 books you bought and read?  None of that happened.  It was all just a bad dream that Elminster had after eating too many spicy Calamshite kabobs."  

Not only would this annoy those fans who had purchased read those books, it would ensure that those books do not sell in the future (since most fans would not want to buy books that no longer are 'cannon').

So WotC is stuck with a post-Spell Plague Forgotten Realms.  And they think that the only way to get the FR back to something that resembles the version that people actually liked, is through some kind of major event that undoes the Spell Plague.

I'm only a casual fan of the FR (at best), but it is rather sad to see what 4e did to the setting.

Having bought The Companions, and it being the 1st Forgotten Realms novel I've bought since the 1990s I'd say their strategy is working. Further even though I may not use D&D Next rules (though I may) I intend to use the Forgotten Realms  setting perhaps with RuneQuest; so I'II be buying those books too. Again I haven't bought any RPG Forgotten Realms stuff since the 1990s.

Well, I'm glad here at least they're publicly (and not just privately) admitting what a clusterfuck their choices for FR and 4e were.

Once again, I could say I told them so, I literally did, but of course they know that already.


Also, I'm glad it sounds like Ed has a meaningful plan.


RPGPundit

I agree. I'm a Greyhawk fan first and foremost, but I'm willing to listen to what they have coming for FR. This is as close as we'll get to them admitting they royally screwed things up, I think.

Quote from: Spinachcat;678008DC and Marvel know that "shaking up" the canon with "world changing events" is great for sales and that's why its done over and over. Forgotten Realms already has had God Wars before so its a good move.

Yeah, but at least with Marvel and DC you know the usual canon was going to settle in before to long.  Things changed, but mostly stayed the same overall.

It's a totally different animal. With comics, you at least get new storylines, new match ups etc.

With an RPG setting, people already have lots of material to game with. When you're re-booting, you need to walk the line between different enough that people who already own the last iteration buy the new one, and being familiar enough that it's recognisable as your intellectual property.

Quote from: Spinachcat;678008DC and Marvel know that "shaking up" the canon with "world changing events" is great for sales and that's why its done over and over. Forgotten Realms already has had God Wars before so its a good move.

The joke of course is what the bulk of the FR fanbase is never going to agree what is "Classic FR" because it all depends on whether you are more of a FR RPGer or FR novel reader or FR video game player.

It is prefence of course, butI grew tired of the constant shake ups back in the 90s. They did it a lot with the Ravenloft setting, and while I loved the line, I felt those constant developments to the setting didn't add anything of value for a GM like me (who had been along from the beginning) and created a higher barrier of entry for the new GM just encountering Ravenloft. I think you also ended up with something quite convoluted and inelegant. It never deterred me from buying the new boxed sets or material (because they often came with mechanicl revisions or expanded info). It just never felt like the best way to approach a setting to me. If they want to include a timeline of future events in the core, i think that can be helpful though.

Quote from: One Horse Town;678308It's a totally different animal. With comics, you at least get new storylines, new match ups etc.

With an RPG setting, people already have lots of material to game with. When you're re-booting, you need to walk the line between different enough that people who already own the last iteration buy the new one, and being familiar enough that it's recognisable as your intellectual property.

The 'quality' of a reboot matetrs as well.

Comic books have had some epicly mind numbingly stupid retcons.

But if a setting reboot/retcon/etc...is well done I don't really have a problem with it.

If the reboot would not mesh with a campaign I am running, I would just ignore the reboot until I started a new campaign.

I guess setting reboots would piss of someone using the same setting for many years; that might be a real pain.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;678315It is prefence of course, butI grew tired of the constant shake ups back in the 90s. They did it a lot with the Ravenloft setting, and while I loved the line, I felt those constant developments to the setting didn't add anything of value for a GM like me (who had been along from the beginning) and created a higher barrier of entry for the new GM just encountering Ravenloft. I think you also ended up with something quite convoluted and inelegant.

This. I bought the Neverwinter Nights Campaign Setting (4E) to use for my Next playtest (the first FR book I'd looked at since the Grey Box), and while it's an otherwise excellent setting book, the meta back story has gotten ridiculous. There are so many layers of cataclysmic events, deities, and history that it's really off-putting to new players to the setting.

If WotC really wants to Next to be accessible to new or lapsed gamers, and it wants FR to be a core setting, they need to hack back the cosmology and history into something far more accessible.

Quote from: Haffrung;678344This. I bought the Neverwinter Nights Campaign Setting (4E) to use for my Next playtest (the first FR book I'd looked at since the Grey Box), and while it's an otherwise excellent setting book, the meta back story has gotten ridiculous. There are so many layers of cataclysmic events, deities, and history that it's really off-putting to new players to the setting.

If WotC really wants to Next to be accessible to new or lapsed gamers, and it wants FR to be a core setting, they need to hack back the cosmology and history into something far more accessible.

This.  I've been trying to read up on FR lately and I'll be damned if I can follow which gods are alive or dead or whatever at the current FR date.  The biggest problem I have with FR is how in your face all the gods are and this sundering event sounds kind of like they're making that even worse.  I don't want to fight for ANY damn god or run games that involve such plotlines.

Quote from: Haffrung;678344If WotC really wants to Next to be accessible to new or lapsed gamers, and it wants FR to be a core setting, they need to hack back the cosmology and history into something far more accessible.

WotC doesn't need to actually eliminate any cosmology and history, they just need to realize what parts are relevant for the game, and include just those elements in any future core campaign book.  

(Just as one doesn't need to know all the details of the First Age of Middle-earth in order to run a campaign set at the time of the Hobbit; just the main points will suffice.)

Quote from: JonWake;678216I don't know if anyone has seen this interview with RA Salvatore. It's pretty interesting, specifically about the difference between how 4e addressed the Realms and how 5e is different.
RA Salvatore Interview (//www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLf1hBUr9M4)

Short version: when he and Ed Greenwood got out of the meeting with Wizards back in 2006, they felt gutted. Management told these two guys who have been working in the Realms longer than anyone that they were going to do this fast forward, and they could get in line.  Bob told Ed to not worry, because in five years when they realized how badly they screwed up, Ed and Bob would have a game plan.

Fast forward to a couple years ago, when just that happened. He talks about how James Wyatt was telling them how badly 4e had gone off the rails (his words, not mine), and Bob Salvatore just says, 'it's cool, I got this.'

That was an interesting interview.  Salvatore seems like a decent chap.  And yet more evidence that WotC was completely oblivious in the planning and production of 4e.

Quote from: Akrasia;678603That was an interesting interview.  Salvatore seems like a decent chap.  And yet more evidence that WotC was completely oblivious in the planning and production of 4e.

Salvatore always comes across as a down-to-earth, likeable guy.

The best thing they could do is a reboot-from-scratch, like what they did with the recent Star Trek films.

Quote from: RPGPundit;678750The best thing they could do is a reboot-from-scratch, like what they did with the recent Star Trek films.

That might have a wide appeal, but a lot of Star Trek fans hate it and pretend it doesn't exist.

Highlander is probably the best rebooting job. Not the movies, but the TV show. Take the same basic idea, most of the names (Duncan MacLeod instead of Connor), and forget (mostly) about the movies.

Quote from: JeremyR;678753That might have a wide appeal, but a lot of Star Trek fans hate it and pretend it doesn't exist.

Yeah my ex-roommate who's an even bigger Trek fan than I am was bitching about how Warp Factor in nuTrek was ridiculous compared to previous Trek given that it took the Enterprise only a few minutes to hit Vulcan from Earth when it "should have" taken days or weeks.

And I'm thinking, "This is a movie, and they have to compress events into a single narrative, man," not to mention "Until we can actually break the lightspeed barrier and test with our own equipment, Earth to 40 Eridani in minutes is no less scriptwriter-magical-handwaving than Earth to 40 Eridani in days, BECAUSE FASTER THAN LIGHT DOESN'T EXIST."

Which I guess is slightly relevant to the question of how FR the game should line up with FR the fiction line.

JG

Quote from: JeremyR;678753That might have a wide appeal, but a lot of Star Trek fans hate it and pretend it doesn't exist.

Highlander is probably the best rebooting job. Not the movies, but the TV show. Take the same basic idea, most of the names (Duncan MacLeod instead of Connor), and forget (mostly) about the movies.

I am a huge Highlander fan; loved the first movie, watched all the series and spinoff series.

But man, the sequel movies....*shudder*

I still have a button from a con I attended over 20 years ago.

It read simply:

Highlander. There should be only one.

Couldn't agree more. Same applies here.

Quote from: James Gillen;678774Yeah my ex-roommate who's an even bigger Trek fan than I am was bitching about how Warp Factor in nuTrek was ridiculous compared to previous Trek given that it took the Enterprise only a few minutes to hit Vulcan from Earth when it "should have" taken days or weeks.

It's the internal continuity of the movies themselves that bugs me on this point: Having everything move at the speed of plot (it's a 15 minute trip from Earth-to-Vulcan in one direction, but it's a 3 days trip going the other way) is really lazy scriptwriting.

On a wider thematic level, when you can get from Earth to the Klingon Empire in 5-6 minutes it takes a really big bite out of the whole "exploration" thing that I think is an important part of the Star Trek Mythos.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;679109On a wider thematic level, when you can get from Earth to the Klingon Empire in 5-6 minutes it takes a really big bite out of the whole "exploration" thing that I think is an important part of the Star Trek Mythos.

Yeah, it seems that four-year mission involved circumnavigating the galaxy a few dozen times.

But then, the movies have a completely different premise and mythos than the TV shows altogether. They're straight-out action movies featuring characters from the TV shows.

Quote from: RPGPundit;678750The best thing they could do is a reboot-from-scratch, like what they did with the recent Star Trek films.

Or go back in time and shift to focus to a completely different part of the Realms.  It's much larger than the United States and there are a lot of underdeveloped areas that could be done.  

That said, the Spellplague made for some very bad novels . . .

Quote from: Justin Alexander;679109It's the internal continuity of the movies themselves that bugs me on this point: Having everything move at the speed of plot (it's a 15 minute trip from Earth-to-Vulcan in one direction, but it's a 3 days trip going the other way) is really lazy scriptwriting.

On a wider thematic level, when you can get from Earth to the Klingon Empire in 5-6 minutes it takes a really big bite out of the whole "exploration" thing that I think is an important part of the Star Trek Mythos.

Very lazy scriptwriting. All it would of taken would have been a 1 minute scene with some lines about how it took a few weeks each way.

Nothing breaks my suspension of disbelief more than when the 'setting rules' are inconsistent.


.

Quote from: RPGPundit;678750The best thing they could do is a reboot-from-scratch, like what they did with the recent Star Trek films.

How do we know that isn't what is happening? Could Drizzt be the older Spock...?

Quote from: elfandghost;679535How do we know that isn't what is happening? Could Drizzt be the older Spock...?

I have to confess that I am somewhat curious to see how Greenwood and Salvatore plan to 'save' the Realms...

:hmm:

Quote from: Akrasia;679545I have to confess that I am somewhat curious to see how Greenwood and Salvatore plan to 'save' the Realms...

:hmm:

I think the term salvage is more appropriate.

I've never had that much interest in the Realms. It's sort of the Doctor Who, Kitchen Sink philosophy of fantasy worldbuilding, and I've learned to respect that in my middle age.
Still, it speaks volumes about the current management team at WotC that they went to the wellspring first. It might end up shit, but it will be honest shit.

Quote from: Akrasia;678056. . . I can't conceive of why anyone would be interested in the FR . . .

Full stop.

WotC isn't "admitting" that 4e was any sort of failure--because it wasn't.  They sold us a fuckton of books, as they hope to do again with the latest "innovative" setting/system.

Rinse and repeat is what it is...but if you like, you can pretend that each new iteration is a vindication of the one before last.  WotC will still sell a fuckton of books with familiar titles; fans and haters alike will have something to enjoy.

Quote from: AteTheHeckUp;679977WotC isn't "admitting" that 4e was any sort of failure--because it wasn't.  They sold us a fuckton of books, as they hope to do again with the latest "innovative" setting/system.

Rinse and repeat is what it is...but if you like, you can pretend that each new iteration is a vindication of the one before last.  WotC will still sell a fuckton of books with familiar titles; fans and haters alike will have something to enjoy.

I think the consensus is against this conclusion. With even writers like RA Salvatore suggesting in the interview linked here that they are esentially trying to repair the setting in the wake of 4E.

Quote from: AteTheHeckUp;679977WotC isn't "admitting" that 4e was any sort of failure--because it wasn't.

That's adorable.

Quote from: AteTheHeckUp;679977WotC isn't "admitting" that 4e was any sort of failure--because it wasn't.  

You mean other than Mearls saying as much when they announced 5e?

Quote from: AteTheHeckUp;679977WotC isn't "admitting" that 4e was any sort of failure--because it wasn't.  They sold us a fuckton of books, as they hope to do again with the latest "innovative" setting/system.

Rinse and repeat is what it is...but if you like, you can pretend that each new iteration is a vindication of the one before last.  WotC will still sell a fuckton of books with familiar titles; fans and haters alike will have something to enjoy.

"Selling X number of books" is not an indication of success if the company thinks that its approach will crimp the sale of further books in the long term.

JG

I think both of these are true:

1) 4e brought in more revenue and profit for WOTC than Pathfinder did for Paizo over the same period of time;
2) 4e did not bring in enough revenue and profit to be considered a success by WOTC standards.

Quote from: Mistwell;680114I think both of these are true:

1) 4e brought in more revenue and profit for WOTC than Pathfinder did for Paizo over the same period of time;
2) 4e did not bring in enough revenue and profit to be considered a success by WOTC standards.

I think this is likely true. I would also add it was largely responsible for the profit Paizo brought in at the time. I dont know how much they lost, but my guess is 4E brought in a lot less than 3E because it split the customer base. If it were any other company, of course 4E would have been viewed as a successs. But WOTC isn't any other company.

I see a lot of people doing serious mental gymnastics to make the argument that not only was 4E a success, but its quick replacement by 5E is a sign of how much of a success it was (or just business as usual). This simply doesn't ring true to me. If it was such a success, and they just wanted to sell more books, i think we'd just be getting a more refined and upgraded version of that game. But they are clearly designing something that isnt the next iteration of 4E. And statements by guys like Salvatore make that even more clear to me: they are trying to fix a problem that 4E created for them.

Quote from: James Gillen;680039"Selling X number of books" is not an indication of success if the company thinks that its approach will crimp the sale of further books in the long term.

How much of the short term "Selling X number of books" mentality is driven by "busywork" and employee turnover at WotC?

ie. Employees who don't think they'll be around in the long term (and can be laid off at any moment through no fault of their own), just cranking out stuff green-lighted by their bosses.  At the next level, the bosses calling the shots in the D&D division may also be vulnerable to employment termination at any moment.

So why bother thinking long term, when there's a significant likelihood the employees (both worker bees and bosses) won't be around in the long term?

Or a generic Dilbert PHB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointy-Haired_Boss) style response of: "It's not our problem anymore.  The next guys will clean up the mess left behind, once we're gone."  :banghead:  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Mistwell;680114I think both of these are true:
1) 4e brought in more revenue and profit for WOTC than Pathfinder did for Paizo over the same period of time;
2) 4e did not bring in enough revenue and profit to be considered a success by WOTC standards.

I think that's true, but that's not the big picture.

WOTC is a part of Hasbro, and has to justify its continued existence within Hasbro; that's a different type of bar than when WOTC was its own company.

Licensing of D&D related properties Dungeon and Dragon (or I should say, termination of licensing) and then 4e were engines of change that enabled Paizo to become as successful as it has. 4e legitimized Pathfinder as the better successor to 3.5.

Hasbro has to deal with the monster its created.

Quote from: Mistwell;680114I think both of these are true:

1) 4e brought in more revenue and profit for WOTC than Pathfinder did for Paizo over the same period of time;
2) 4e did not bring in enough revenue and profit to be considered a success by WOTC standards.

There's also the critical factor that Paizo is a smaller company which is not a subset of a much larger global outfit, and therefore the standards of success for Wizards/Hasbro are much higher than they would be for Paizo, if they're not outright unrealistic.

JG

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;680117I think this is likely true. I would also add it was largely responsible for the profit Paizo brought in at the time. I dont know how much they lost, but my guess is 4E brought in a lot less than 3E because it split the customer base. If it were any other company, of course 4E would have been viewed as a successs. But WOTC isn't any other company.

I see a lot of people doing serious mental gymnastics to make the argument that not only was 4E a success, but its quick replacement by 5E is a sign of how much of a success it was (or just business as usual). This simply doesn't ring true to me. If it was such a success, and they just wanted to sell more books, i think we'd just be getting a more refined and upgraded version of that game. But they are clearly designing something that isnt the next iteration of 4E. And statements by guys like Salvatore make that even more clear to me: they are trying to fix a problem that 4E created for them.

Because again, as you'll see from the various overhauls of FR, the company (whether it's WotC or TSR) uses Forgotten Realms as a flagship setting if not the default setting, and therefore they change the setting to fit the mechanics whether they'd actually fit or not.  The problems involved in changing Forgotten Realms from d20/D&D Classic to 4E/New D&D make it clear that 4E is an even more arbitrary and "immersion" killing rules set than previous versions of d20.  You could at least try to play various other genres with d20, which was of course the basis for a large part of gaming sourcebooks.  You couldn't really play anything other than 4E D&D with 4E D&D, except 7E Gamma World, which was deliberately intended not to be taken seriously.

Come to think of it, the deliberate intent to not make 4E system "open source" is a big part of why 4E is not a nexus of gaming in the same way that 3rd Edition/d20 System was.  Maybe Wizards has realized that that is a bug, not a feature.

JG

Quote from: JeremyR;678753That might have a wide appeal, but a lot of Star Trek fans hate it and pretend it doesn't exist.

And a lot of ex-star trek fans came back to the series thanks to it (myself included).

So I guess what WoTC has to analyze is just how many of the remaining current fans they would lose over this move, vs. how many old fans they'd get back or new fans they'd gain.

RPGPundit

Of course that logic is what probably resulted in D&D's Reboot from 3e to 4e.

Reboots are hard to calculate--for every Battlestar Galactica there are 5 Bionic Womans.

What I find annoying about re-boots is how they have crowded out exploring franchises in depth. There's all this set-up to introduce characters and setting, and just when you're ready to dig into some ongoing, in-depth stories, it's over. It's all origin stories all the time.

Quote from: JRT;680837Of course that logic is what probably resulted in D&D's Reboot from 3e to 4e. Reboots are hard to calculate--for every Battlestar Galactica there are 5 Bionic Womans.

Something I've said in the past: There has never been a successful reboot edition of an RPG unless there was deep and widespread dissatisfaction among the existing fans of the game.

The most successful transitions in the history of D&D were the transition from OD&D to AD&D and from 2E to 3E. In my opinion, both of those transitions were effective because (a) they addressed perceived shortcomings in the existing rules; (b) they worked to form a bridge of continuity between the old edition and the new edition; and (c) they were effective at reaching out to new customers.

The methods they used to achieve those things (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2734/roleplaying-games/pathfinder-vs-4th-edition-grrr#comment-70530) were radically different, but I think those are key features of what makes an edition transition successful.

As we look at the transition from 4E to 5E, WotC still has significant challenges to overcome: First, there doesn't appear to be any deep dissatisfaction in either the 4E or the 3.5/PF customer bases. (They're each dissatisfied with the other, but that's not the same thing.)

Second, because there is no universally perceived shortcoming in the existing rules, there's no clear mandate about what WotC is supposed to be "fixing". (I suspect this has a lot to do with why the playtest documents have been all over the place. I also suspect that this is behind the whole "modular" approach that I'm pretty confident is doomed to failure since every other attempt at executing a "modular" RPG design has been also been a horrible failure.)

OTOH, they seem to be doing a much better job of forming a bridge of continuity between the old edition(s) and the new editions.

Now, if we're talking about a major setting reboot with a huge gap of skipped time... Well, AFAIK that's never been successful in the RPG industry and I doubt it will ever be successful. It looks great from the eyes of a developer (who looks at the world from a particular angle), but it's completely terrible for pretty much everybody who's a fan.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;681085As we look at the transition from 4E to 5E, WotC still has significant challenges to overcome: First, there doesn't appear to be any deep dissatisfaction in either the 4E or the 3.5/PF customer bases. (They're each dissatisfied with the other, but that's not the same thing.)

Second, because there is no universally perceived shortcoming in the existing rules, there's no clear mandate about what WotC is supposed to be "fixing". (I suspect this has a lot to do with why the playtest documents have been all over the place. I also suspect that this is behind the whole "modular" approach that I'm pretty confident is doomed to failure since every other attempt at executing a "modular" RPG design has been also been a horrible failure.)

A lot of the success of 3E didn't come from people who were dissatisfied with 2E as a system - it came from lapsed gamers who stopped playing D&D in their 20s and then heard about this new edition when they were at an age when they might think of dusting off some books and getting the old gang together again. Sure, a lot of them ended up genuinely liking 3E. But they hadn't rejected 2E - they just stopped playing D&D altogether because they had other things going on in their lives.

WotC are still chasing that demographic - the huge cohort of people who picked up D&D between 1979 and 1989 and who don't have the energy to play 3E or Pathfinder anymore, and can't make heads or tails of 4E. Now they're hoping those 40-somethings will teach their kids to play.

They're also reaching outside the existing RPG market. They look at the massive upswing in popularity of tabletop boardgames and wonder why they can't get some of those 20 and 30 something geeks who are already making the time to game face-to-face to try an iteration of D&D that's more accessible than the last two editions.

If Next can appeal to those two casual markets - the aging old-schooler and the modern casual gamer - WotC won't need massive buy-in from hardcore 3E/Pathfinder and 4E fans.

Also, don't underestimate how many Pathfinder players (and especially DMs) grin and bear it rather than love the system. RPG forums would lead you to believe people are ardent and enthusiastic loyalists for whatever edition they play. In the real world, people are far more fickle, and will stick with something they're 60/40 with only until something better comes along. Given the pleading of fans for Paizo to extend the Pathfinder Beginner's Set to the full level range, there's a sizable appetite for a simpler iteration of D&D even among Paizo loyalists.

Quote from: JRT;680837Of course that logic is what probably resulted in D&D's Reboot from 3e to 4e.

Reboots are hard to calculate--for every Battlestar Galactica there are 5 Bionic Womans.

You say this like it's a bad thing.  I'd watch Michelle Ryan in anything.  You're saying I could watch 5 of her?

(http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4877/au18.jpg)

Quote from: Haffrung;680846What I find annoying about re-boots is how they have crowded out exploring franchises in depth. There's all this set-up to introduce characters and setting, and just when you're ready to dig into some ongoing, in-depth stories, it's over. It's all origin stories all the time.

The worst are the ones which are done mid way out of context, and completely unexpectedly.

One recent egregious example is season 4 of Fringe, where they even altered the "origin story" in a blatant manner.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;681085Something I've said in the past: There has never been a successful reboot edition of an RPG unless there was deep and widespread dissatisfaction among the existing fans of the game.

It depends on what you think of old World of Darkness vs. new World of Darkness or Hero System 5th Edition versus the previous version of Champions, which was actually a not-well-thought out Fuzion game called Champions: New Millenium.  In that case, of course, there was certainly deep and widespread dissatisfaction among existing fans of the game, which may explain why the reaction to 5th Edition was generally more positive than the reaction to Hero 6th Edition. ;)

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;681115It depends on what you think of old World of Darkness vs. new World of Darkness

White Wolf went from being the most successful RPG company outside of TSR/WotC to being a second or third tier company directly after shifting to nWoD. That almost certainly had more to do with the setting reboot than mechanical changes, but -- merits of quality aside -- I doubt anyone would classify that as a successful edition change.

QuoteHero System 5th Edition versus the previous version of Champions, which was actually a not-well-thought out Fuzion game called Champions: New Millenium.  In that case, of course, there was certainly deep and widespread dissatisfaction among existing fans of the game, which may explain why the reaction to 5th Edition was generally more positive than the reaction to Hero 6th Edition. ;)

That sequence of Champion games is actually a great example I hadn't thought about: There was little dissatisfaction with the Hero System and the reboot to Champions: New Millennium was very unsuccessful. The dissatisfaction with Champions: New Millennium, OTOH, made it relatively easy to reboot to FREd.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;681137White Wolf went from being the most successful RPG company outside of TSR/WotC to being a second or third tier company directly after shifting to nWoD.

But what had happened before the reboot? All oWoD lines had been beaten to death with three editions, and the whole catalog of clan books and supplements that had been cycled through three times.
The time was up for either V:tM 4th edition, or a reboot.

Granted, nWoD was not well-received, but from my perspective as a shop owner during that troubled time the oWoD players were done being customers anyway. The oWoD was gathering dust as well, just like AD&D 2nd edition right before 3e.

From the sales volume in my store WW was a second tier company long before nWoD was announced.

It was similar to the end of Battletech. In the years before MechWarrior: The Dark Age appeared the BT customers gradually stopped being customers for miniatures and sourcebooks. The novels continued to sell but the game was dead (as a product). The players had every miniature they could possibly need.
From 1990-1996 I could not reorder fast enough and I needed a full wall of every miniature available, 2-5 pieces deep. In 2000/2001 I had to put them in a cardboard box in a corner on the floor, marked down about half price, where they didn't move.
When the clix variant appeared there was an outrage by the old fans, and some of them returned to the store, begging for shelf space. I heard them, and they organized a weekly, in-store Battletech league with 10-15 participants. For half a year they played regularly, but still the sales of the BT line (supplements, miniatures) were not affected at all. (In 2002 or so we ended that experiment, and sold the remaining miniatures at a convention.)

At least one part of WW's failure (besides simply having a style and a theory of gaming that was long out of date) was that they did a re-make, not a re-boot.  

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPundit;682121At least one part of WW's failure (besides simply having a style and a theory of gaming that was long out of date) was that they did a re-make, not a re-boot.  

RPGPundit

MAGE? Changeling? Definitely re-boots.
Werewolf?  Probably a re-make.
Promethean?  Couldn't be a remake.
Vampire... definitely a remake.

JG

What I meant by it is just going back in time and hitting the 'reset' button.  As far as I know NONE of the nWoD games did that. They were all new settings, some more or less similar to their older edition, but all different in some pretty fundamental ways.

Ok, I don't know what exactly the Spellplague did, how the setting changed, when the Spellplague hit (what FR year), etc.
All I heard was that the setting clock was forwarded a hundred years or so.

So the most obvious cure/rollback would be to just continue the setting from the last year 3.5 was set in, no?

"Forgotten Realms - The Lost Years"

That way the canon of the later novels (the ones that appeared during 4e) won't be invalidated - at least not until the year of the event draws near and WotC has to decide whether to follow through or deviate from the plot.
(I'd make that a player/GM-driven decision via a short campaign/adventure path with a truly open ending, though I can see that WotC can't do that because of franchise reasons.)

Maztica, along with Anchorômé, were swapped out with another continent upon twin planet Abeir.

Toril is part of a twin planet system Abeil-Toril, of which god Ao said fuck it, and broke all of everyone's shit -- so we could all play dragonborn, tiefling, whatchamacallit in cubical sphere space where everyone was 'balanced'.

Oh, and Halruaa went boom. Along with IIRC Thay, Mulhorand, etc.

Pretty much where 2e shook up the setting, 4e just blew it up. Added a second planet, swapped some continents, blew up a few bystander nations, erased non-PC slave nations, and then labeled it "new and improved!" Probably threw in some Halleluyah Mountains while they were at it and called it a day.

After only reading FR from grey box and 2e recently and then transitioning to 4e Spellplague -- no, just no.

Quote from: RPGPundit;682621What I meant by it is just going back in time and hitting the 'reset' button.  As far as I know NONE of the nWoD games did that. They were all new settings, some more or less similar to their older edition, but all different in some pretty fundamental ways.

My impression with Mage is that the game was completely different.  The main points of conflict and narrative interest in the oWoD were completely gone.  It was possible in nWoD Vampire for a subset of the vampire community to actually believe they were in the oWoD or a similar context.  Nothing like that exists with Mage.

Quote from: Opaopajr;682697Maztica, along with Anchorômé, were swapped out with another continent upon twin planet Abeir.

Toril is part of a twin planet system Abeil-Toril, of which god Ao said fuck it, and broke all of everyone's shit -- so we could all play dragonborn, tiefling, whatchamacallit in cubical sphere space where everyone was 'balanced'.

Oh, and Halruaa went boom. Along with IIRC Thay, Mulhorand, etc.

Pretty much where 2e shook up the setting, 4e just blew it up. Added a second planet, swapped some continents, blew up a few bystander nations, erased non-PC slave nations, and then labeled it "new and improved!" Probably threw in some Halleluyah Mountains while they were at it and called it a day.

After only reading FR from grey box and 2e recently and then transitioning to 4e Spellplague -- no, just no.

IIRC 'Abeir-Toril' just translates to "cradle of life" i.e. its the full name of Toril in the canon. So the whole second planet existing is a retcon. Along with the Dragonboob empire and Tiefling empires, the addition of primordials and whatnot to canon, they managed to not just Spellplague the planet but also change its history. Oh and they replaced nearly all the gods.

At best using 4E FR you might find the occasional ruined inn inhabited by century-old zombie NPCs you'd recognize; other than that its a different setting. 4E FR and 3E FR are more or less the same setting in the same way Gangbusters and Gamma World are both the same setting, but with less geography in common and more changes in assumed playstyle.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;681673From the sales volume in my store WW was a second tier company long before nWoD was announced.

Obviously your experience is your experience, but industry-wide data still had them as one of the Top 3 or Top 2 companies in the RPG industry through 2003.

There's no question WW was already on a serious decline, ever since D&D 3.0 came out; the nWoD just sealed the deal.

Quote from: RPGPundit;683436There's no question WW was already on a serious decline, ever since D&D 3.0 came out; the nWoD just sealed the deal.

I wonder if they asked their fans if the nwod concept was something they might like?

I was not impressed with old or new wod mechanics but I kind of like the setting.

I think the thing was that they had already taken the owod about as far as it could go. Three editions of the main games, a half dozen or so other spinoff games, an exhaustive list of supplements... what else was left to do?

Quote from: soviet;683592I think the thing was that they had already taken the owod about as far as it could go. Three editions of the main games, a half dozen or so other spinoff games, an exhaustive list of supplements... what else was left to do?

They could have Not Taken It Anywhere, and 'fixed' the horrid game mechanics :)

Quote from: Bill;683609They could have Not Taken It Anywhere, and 'fixed' the horrid game mechanics :)

They had made a move towards doing that with Revised, although nWoD obviously went a lot further and is a much better game, mechanically.

But i think the problems predated nWoD by some time. For one you had a massive change in zeitgeist that rendered the culture behind the games unfashionable. Secondly, I would argue the later books just where not as good - as soon as Nosferatu starts throwing nukes around the whole tone shifts  from edgy realism to poor-quality comic books and fans deserted as a result.

Quote from: jadrax;683625They had made a move towards doing that with Revised, although nWoD obviously went a lot further and is a much better game, mechanically.

But i think the problems predated nWoD by some time. For one you had a massive change in zeitgeist that rendered the culture behind the games unfashionable. Secondly, I would argue the later books just where not as good - as soon as Nosferatu starts throwing nukes around the whole tone shifts  from edgy realism to poor-quality comic books and fans deserted as a result.

Which leads to the point that you can't just "not take it anywhere" since pretty much every game, even from the get-go, had been leading to the concept that the world is going to end.  I mean, "Werewolf: The Apocalypse."  So they had to reboot if only because their end-of-the-world scenario was no longer plausible.  Which is indeed because of the larger point that the zeitgeist had passed "Gothic-Punk" by, but also because of their own philosophy for the setting.

This of course is a separate subject from the shitty rules, especially since I don't think Storytelling System is an improvement on Storyteller or even the transitional system used by Adventure! and Exalted.

JG

I think it was pretty cool how they managed to lift out a continent the size of South America and then dump an Australian-sized alien landmass in its place without creating tidal waves that would have wiped out every medieval coastal settlement everywhere.

Not to mention dumping several mountain ranges on top of Mulhorand (complete with Dragonborn! and Genie people) without so much as a single EPA lawsuit.

And to think there was a day when people were upset with the Shadovar for melting a few icecaps.

Quote from: Saplatt;683721I think it was pretty cool how they managed to lift out a continent the size of South America and then dump an Australian-sized alien landmass in its place without creating tidal waves that would have wiped out every medieval coastal settlement everywhere.

Not to mention dumping several mountain ranges on top of Mulhorand (complete with Dragonborn! and Genie people) without so much as a single EPA lawsuit.

And to think there was a day when people were upset with the Shadovar for melting a few icecaps.

"F@#% You, it's MAGIC!"

This is looking a lot like a soft reset - http://www.wizards.com/dnd/sundering.aspx

What is the Sundering?
 The Sundering will reshape the Forgotten Realms, involving the whole pantheon of gods, many nations, countless individuals, and the fabric of the cosmos itself. Powerful forces both mortal and divine are set in motion, and will bring an end to the Era of Upheaval. Over the course of this huge story event, players will have the opportunity to help shape the future of Faerûn and make their story legend.

Discover the ways you can experience the Sundering, including through tabletop roleplaying game adventures, store-based play programs, novels, accessories, and the first free-to-play D&D mobile game.

The end of the Era of Upheaval is nigh!
The world of the Forgotten Realms has endured one catastrophe after another for the past century or so, from the Time of Troubles through the Spellplague. Time after time, upheaval has reshaped the pantheon, overthrown nations and rulers, and even altered the geography of the world. Now, the world is being shaken and reshaped once again—for the last time.

 The gods are thrown into chaos at the promise of a new reckoning of the pantheon, and they scramble and grasp at power in hopes of cementing their positions of authority. Their mortal agents in the world, the Chosen, are charged with carrying out their will in every aspect of life.

 The Spellplague, the magical catastrophe that reshaped the world so dramatically, has come to an end. The Weave of magic is rewoven, and many lingering effects of twisted magic fade. The intermingling of worlds brought about by the Spellplague also comes to an end, as what belongs to Abeir returns to Abeir, leaving the Forgotten Realms looking much as it did before.

 Partly driven by the activity of the gods' Chosen and partly arising from the turbulent political situation at the end of the Era of Upheaval, the nations and factions of Faerûn engage in their own maneuvers, manipulations, and acts of aggression. In particular, the empire of Netheril attempts to conquer the Dalelands, Cormyr, and Myth Drannor, setting off a war that engulfs the eastern Heartlands. The Harpers and the Zhentarim respond to the growing threats in the world by regrouping and refocusing their energies, slowly returning to their former prominence.

 Nations, geography, magic, and even the gods are changing forever, in the birth-pangs that herald a new creation. The world needs heroes to ensure that the new age dawns bright and full of hope, where good still shines as a beacon against the darkness.

Also they're keeping 4e-style Tieflings around but making room for more variation, possibly going back to 2e tainted folk rather than an actual species.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd%2F4wand%2F20130820

*sigh* I guess I should take it as a victory that "musical continents" has stopped. Still kinda wish it was "it was all just a bad dream" alternate universe ret-con.

Jesus, I had no idea what a clusterfuck 4e was for the Realms.  Do you figure they took Ed Greenwood aside and were like,
 "Hey Ed--everything we're ever publishing is core now, because we never want another DM to have to say 'no'. So we figured it would be totally metal to like, smash another world into the Realms."
"Wait, like a dimension?"
"No, like a planet."
"Wouldn't that kind of break a planet?"
"Listen, Ed, they told me you were a team player. Are you on Team Awesome, or Team Stick in The Mud?"
"I'm just not sure--"
"Awesome? Or Stick in the Mud? Because we only have room on payroll for people on Team Awesome."
"I do like eating."
"We all like eating, Ed."
"So... is this like a Spelljammer crossover? Like an alien invasion thing? We've established the Spelljammers exist here, you know."
"Ed, I'm hearing a lot of old ideas out of you. I'm not hearing any new ideas. You know what a new idea is, right, Ed?"
"Planet Smashing."
"Fuck. Yes. Good to have you on board."

Sounds about right.

Quote from: JonWake;684236Jesus, I had no idea what a clusterfuck 4e was for the Realms.  Do you figure they took Ed Greenwood aside and were like,
 "Hey Ed--everything we're ever publishing is core now, because we never want another DM to have to say 'no'. So we figured it would be totally metal to like, smash another world into the Realms."
"Wait, like a dimension?"
"No, like a planet."
"Wouldn't that kind of break a planet?"
"Listen, Ed, they told me you were a team player. Are you on Team Awesome, or Team Stick in The Mud?"
"I'm just not sure--"
"Awesome? Or Stick in the Mud? Because we only have room on payroll for people on Team Awesome."
"I do like eating."
"We all like eating, Ed."
"So... is this like a Spelljammer crossover? Like an alien invasion thing? We've established the Spelljammers exist here, you know."
"Ed, I'm hearing a lot of old ideas out of you. I'm not hearing any new ideas. You know what a new idea is, right, Ed?"
"Planet Smashing."
"Fuck. Yes. Good to have you on board."

Maybe they mistook him for Tom Wham.

(http://www.tomwham.com/planetb.gif)

Quote from: JonWake;684236Jesus, I had no idea what a clusterfuck 4e was for the Realms.  Do you figure they took Ed Greenwood aside and were like,
 "Hey Ed--everything we're ever publishing is core now, because we never want another DM to have to say 'no'. So we figured it would be totally metal to like, smash another world into the Realms."
"Wait, like a dimension?"
"No, like a planet."
"Wouldn't that kind of break a planet?"
"Listen, Ed, they told me you were a team player. Are you on Team Awesome, or Team Stick in The Mud?"
"I'm just not sure--"
"Awesome? Or Stick in the Mud? Because we only have room on payroll for people on Team Awesome."
"I do like eating."
"We all like eating, Ed."
"So... is this like a Spelljammer crossover? Like an alien invasion thing? We've established the Spelljammers exist here, you know."
"Ed, I'm hearing a lot of old ideas out of you. I'm not hearing any new ideas. You know what a new idea is, right, Ed?"
"Planet Smashing."
"Fuck. Yes. Good to have you on board."

That pretty much matches how Bob describes it.

Quote from: R.A.SalvatoreThe Forgotten Realms is not my world. If I want to play in WotC's sandbox, I have to go along with their decisions. When they decided to advance the world 100 years, I had to follow.

It caused great distress - for Ed Greenwood too, I might add. So we talked about it and decided on two things:

    We'd take it as an opportunity to grow our protagonists in unexpected ways.

    We'd play the long game. We'd either outsmart or simply outlast the designers...

There are some moments of justice in the world, and watching "4e Fucked Up" Realms fall monumentally flat is one of them.

When you say "Planet Smashing," it makes it seem so much cooler than it actually was.

JG

An interesting interview with Salvatore about this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=aLf1hBUr9M4#t=700

(11:40 is the time if that link doesn't take you right to it).

It sounds like with the 4E transition they took the writers and said, *this* is what is happening to fit the game.  With the 5E transition they are saying, this is the new game system, you tell us what to do with the world.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;682865IIRC 'Abeir-Toril' just translates to "cradle of life" i.e. its the full name of Toril in the canon. So the whole second planet existing is a retcon. Along with the Dragonboob empire and Tiefling empires, the addition of primordials and whatnot to canon, they managed to not just Spellplague the planet but also change its history. Oh and they replaced nearly all the gods.

Let's not forget how they pulverised Planescape, too. 3/3.5 gave it to you "on the sly" thanks to the Plane books (which basically were unofficial Planescape conversion book). Even if you didn't own/like PS, they were full of ideas for creating your own rich Cosmology.

4E had the FeyAss and something else that escapes me...

Quote from: Reckall;684616Let's not forget how they pulverised Planescape, too. 3/3.5 gave it to you "on the sly" thanks to the Plane books (which basically were unofficial Planescape conversion book). Even if you didn't own/like PS, they were full of ideas for creating your own rich Cosmology.

4E had the FeyAss and something else that escapes me...

Actually the very best stuff for 4e, the stuff still worth buying and reading for any campaign, is some of the planes stuff intended for DMs.  The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea; The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos; Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead; The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought And Beyond; and Manual of the Planes.  Those books are all top notch, crunch-lite, fluff-heavy, chalk full of awesome ideas that can be borrowed for any campaign.

There never was a DM book devoted to the Feywild, by the way.

Quote from: Mistwell;684663Actually the very best stuff for 4e, the stuff still worth buying and reading for any campaign, is some of the planes stuff intended for DMs.  The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea; The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos; Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead; The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought And Beyond; and Manual of the Planes.  Those books are all top notch, crunch-lite, fluff-heavy, chalk full of awesome ideas that can be borrowed for any campaign.

There never was a DM book devoted to the Feywild, by the way.

I only ever got the Undead book, but I'll back you up on this: it had a really neat take on the difference between willed and unwilled undead.

Quote from: Mistwell;684663Actually the very best stuff for 4e, the stuff still worth buying and reading for any campaign, is some of the planes stuff intended for DMs.  The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea; The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos; Open Grave: Secrets of the Undead; The Shadowfell: Gloomwrought And Beyond; and Manual of the Planes.  Those books are all top notch, crunch-lite, fluff-heavy, chalk full of awesome ideas that can be borrowed for any campaign.

There never was a DM book devoted to the Feywild, by the way.

Thing is, the Feywild was probably the best idea, insofar as you can interpret Faerie as a "sideways" dimension that you can add to a cosmology without nuking and paving everything else.

JG