Quote from: Kerstmanneke82 on July 22, 2022, 10:51:19 AM
While we are at it, can somebody tell me succinctly, and not by hearsay, what is the thing with violence in the Radiant Citadel?

- Can't people commit violence, or won't people commit violence?
- Why not? Can't because of magic or a deity, or won't because of ideology?
- Is the lack of an efficient guard a cause or a consequence of the lack of violence?
- How does this manifest itself, as in, are there no thieves' guilds or assassin's guilds at all there?

I know, probably redundant, but once summer is over, my party will probably journey through the radiant citadel, by ways of preparation I need to know the resistance they can, can't, will or won't meet.

Cheers

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Quote from: jhkim on July 22, 2022, 12:32:46 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".

In general, I think it's fair to say that the citadel displays left-leaning utopianism, similar to how Tolkien's Shire and Lothlórien display his pastoral utopianism.

Specifically about policing, though, that's seems like a weird point since professional police forces were only invented in the 1800s, and other D&D communities also often don't have professional police. For example, the Village of Hommlet has community policing in the form of the local militia. In the Radiant Citadel, there are inspectors who investigate nonviolent crime, and "highly trained local guards" who handle violence. That sounds similar to how I'd handle it in other medieval fantasy cities, except probably the local guards aren't highly trained.

I agree that it is an anachronism but the anachronism is because of the MESSAGE they wanted to have in the book. It's very clearly an allegory for Defund the Police. They didn't do things this way because they were desperate to have medieval authentic accuracy. They did it because they want to indoctrinate people into the idea that if there were no police there'd be no crime.
In the real historical world, in most preindustrial societies the cities were rife with levels of crime that would be shocking to us.

Quote from: Omega on July 22, 2022, 08:12:24 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic".

And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

1: Nice try moving the goalposts. But sorry. No. Those were examples of unworkable policy working because... magic. As said. Ravenloft seems to be dotted with these. Not positive but looks like the recent reveal was that there was a Mythal that was keeping dragons from rampaging too much. Now that its been tampered with it instead causes dragons to raid more.

I am rather surprised that for Citadel they didnt just have the peace being enforced by a Mythal. Wham Bam Utopia Mam.

2: Because otherwise it would be a rather short adventure if the PCs instantly fell prey to whatever mind warping is going on. And, again, Ravenloft is not always so kind to PCs.

Other times the PCs hyst havent been there long enough yet to fall under the power.

And in other cases they have to abide it like everyone else and figure out how to get the job done anyhoo.

So. So far you've just been desperately trying to cherry pick some tenuous reason your tenuous argument cant be blown away in a light breeze.

Keep struggling.

Or man up and admit that yeah there are examples that disprove your claim. Because as usual. Whatever WOTC does, Badly, odds are TSR way the hell back did better. Or even WOTC way back laid the groundwork for.

But so far looks like Radiant Citadel really is shaping up to be a poor mans knock off of Sigil.

Not sure what you're talking about here. Where did I move the goalposts? I'm talking the same thing we were discussing from the get go. My argument hasn't changed.

And no example you provided even has anything that looks like a policy or something similar. Though, it's hard to tell cuz they were all really vague. Like for example you mention: "Bluebeards domain where everyone likes him and the populace is increasingly shaping into an ideal one for him. And no matter what he does they just explain it away." But what does that even mean? And what specifically going here that's been manipulated by magic? I just can't tell from what you're saying here at all. Like, everyone likes Bluebeard; OK, but so what? Maybe the guy is really charismatic for all I know. You're not giving me enough detail here to see how magic is even manipulating anything here. Nothing about those two sentences implies anything supernatural I haven't encountered IRL when dealing with charismatic individuals.

You also mention "powerful mentalists" adding more people to their dominion or whatever. But how is that even magical? And how does it compare to "unworkable policies" that don't produce the expected results IRL suddenly working because of "magic"? Is he mind-controlling people into coming to his domain? Sounds like you're making my point for me if he is, cuz that's what I've been arguing all along about this. That magic cannot just "magically" make unworkable policies work--at least not directly--but it can do indirect stuff, like mind-control people into doing things that would achieve similar goals (such as defunding the police...and then stopping crime by mind-controlling people into not committing crime. However, the policy itself would still not work--your just doing something else--by magic--to achieve the expected result). But maybe you meant something else, IDK. Again, the details you're giving me are vague AF.

Then by the end you mention "TORG where the axioms of a cosm could overwrite things sometimes quite heavily if you faled to resist". If they overwrite things and you get to resist them, then you're still taking about magic changing reality or mind-controlling people rather than ACTUALLY making "unworkable policies work". The policies still don't work, you're just rewriting reality to remove the failures of those policies or whatever.

Quote from: Omega on July 22, 2022, 08:12:24 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic".

And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

1: Nice try moving the goalposts. But sorry. No. Those were examples of unworkable policy working because... magic. As said. Ravenloft seems to be dotted with these. Not positive but looks like the recent reveal was that there was a Mythal that was keeping dragons from rampaging too much. Now that its been tampered with it instead causes dragons to raid more.

I am rather surprised that for Citadel they didnt just have the peace being enforced by a Mythal. Wham Bam Utopia Mam.

Mythals are just a Deus Ex Machina.

Dont think too hard its just magic.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.

So there is crime and violence in the 'save space'. Hurray for WOTC dropping their own damn ball. That is an accomplishment.

Then again TSR did that with Planescape. Realm of the gods my ass. Fun setting but not even remotely what they were touting.

Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM
Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.

So there is crime and violence in the 'save space'. Hurray for WOTC dropping their own damn ball. That is an accomplishment.

Then again TSR did that with Planescape. Realm of the gods my ass. Fun setting but not even remotely what they were touting.

I discuss crime in the citadel in Kerstmanneke82's violence and crime thread.

Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.

Not police. "Citizen patrols" are like the Government-supporting street gangs in Venezuela. It's like what happened in Seattle during the CHAZ.

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 05:14:05 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.

Not police. "Citizen patrols" are like the Government-supporting street gangs in Venezuela. It's like what happened in Seattle during the CHAZ.

Historically, when did formal policing begin? What existed in the transition?

Well it's a good thing I stopped caring how others told me to run my game. They can get my money if I choose to buy something but they get zero say in how I use the material. LOL

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:10:53 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 22, 2022, 08:12:24 PM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic".

And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

1: Nice try moving the goalposts. But sorry. No. Those were examples of unworkable policy working because... magic. As said. Ravenloft seems to be dotted with these. Not positive but looks like the recent reveal was that there was a Mythal that was keeping dragons from rampaging too much. Now that its been tampered with it instead causes dragons to raid more.

I am rather surprised that for Citadel they didnt just have the peace being enforced by a Mythal. Wham Bam Utopia Mam.

2: Because otherwise it would be a rather short adventure if the PCs instantly fell prey to whatever mind warping is going on. And, again, Ravenloft is not always so kind to PCs.

Other times the PCs hyst havent been there long enough yet to fall under the power.

And in other cases they have to abide it like everyone else and figure out how to get the job done anyhoo.

So. So far you've just been desperately trying to cherry pick some tenuous reason your tenuous argument cant be blown away in a light breeze.

Keep struggling.

Or man up and admit that yeah there are examples that disprove your claim. Because as usual. Whatever WOTC does, Badly, odds are TSR way the hell back did better. Or even WOTC way back laid the groundwork for.

But so far looks like Radiant Citadel really is shaping up to be a poor mans knock off of Sigil.

Not sure what you're talking about here. Where did I move the goalposts? I'm talking the same thing we were discussing from the get go. My argument hasn't changed.

And no example you provided even has anything that looks like a policy or something similar. Though, it's hard to tell cuz they were all really vague. Like for example you mention: "Bluebeards domain where everyone likes him and the populace is increasingly shaping into an ideal one for him. And no matter what he does they just explain it away." But what does that even mean? And what specifically going here that's been manipulated by magic? I just can't tell from what you're saying here at all. Like, everyone likes Bluebeard; OK, but so what? Maybe the guy is really charismatic for all I know. You're not giving me enough detail here to see how magic is even manipulating anything here. Nothing about those two sentences implies anything supernatural I haven't encountered IRL when dealing with charismatic individuals.

You also mention "powerful mentalists" adding more people to their dominion or whatever. But how is that even magical? And how does it compare to "unworkable policies" that don't produce the expected results IRL suddenly working because of "magic"? Is he mind-controlling people into coming to his domain? Sounds like you're making my point for me if he is, cuz that's what I've been arguing all along about this. That magic cannot just "magically" make unworkable policies work--at least not directly--but it can do indirect stuff, like mind-control people into doing things that would achieve similar goals (such as defunding the police...and then stopping crime by mind-controlling people into not committing crime. However, the policy itself would still not work--your just doing something else--by magic--to achieve the expected result). But maybe you meant something else, IDK. Again, the details you're giving me are vague AF.

Then by the end you mention "TORG where the axioms of a cosm could overwrite things sometimes quite heavily if you faled to resist". If they overwrite things and you get to resist them, then you're still taking about magic changing reality or mind-controlling people rather than ACTUALLY making "unworkable policies work". The policies still don't work, you're just rewriting reality to remove the failures of those policies or whatever.

i think what he's saying is that the people in the setting are using magic to rewire the basic nature of people to something that would work with their policies

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 23, 2022, 05:14:05 PM

Quote from: Omega on July 23, 2022, 03:09:51 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 10:04:22 PM

Nope, from what I understand it is just because they have such a perfect leftist multicultural society that there's almost no crime or violence.

Turns out what it really is is they have police/gustapo while trying to pass them off as Citizen Patrols. uh-huh. Suuuuure.

Not police. "Citizen patrols" are like the Government-supporting street gangs in Venezuela. It's like what happened in Seattle during the CHAZ.

A rose by any other name...

Quote from: Eirikrautha on July 19, 2022, 07:36:46 PM
Should be easy to prove.  Pundit purports to quote directly from the source material.   Check the source and tell us if he made up the quotes. Simple.  Of course, you would have to engage with his points, as opposed to trying to denigrate them by association.  That's the way the woke do things... find one error and then assert that everything said in the past, present, and future is wrong due to that singular error.

So, did Pundit make up the quotes as you are asserting?  Because if you aren't asserting that, then why bring it up (other that to smear something factual with a previous error that has nothing to do with it)?  That's just sleazy.

Scanning the PDF of Journeys through the radiant citadel (Didn't pay for it) and found this:

"Broad Descriptions: Describe everyone's features, not just those whose features are different from your own"

"Details, not Stereotypes: When describing a character's appearance, strive to detail more than just one thing and avoid descriptions based on stereotypes"

I read the quotes that he is talking about and while they are there in the final product, the Pundit is going more into Hyperbole (which I thinks most of his videos are more Hyperbole than fact).   He assumes without fact that the people writing it haven't played D&D.  We don't know if they have played or not.

They are not trying to gain control of what DM's and players are doing in their game, they are just being WOKE to appease the woke assholes out there.  The shit they say in the book can be easily ignored.  They are fucking up D&D but the idea they are granting control of what a DM can and can't do is just not what is happening.  Even Wizards know they can't control what happens in home games.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 23, 2022, 06:20:43 PM
Historically, when did formal policing begin? What existed in the transition?

There is no policing.  I have read it (didn't pay for the PDF) and they are just suggestions made by Wizards to appease the woke assholes.  The rest is just hyperbole.

Quote from: GhostNinja on July 24, 2022, 12:09:09 PM
I read the quotes that he is talking about and while they are there in the final product, the Pundit is going more into Hyperbole (which I thinks most of his videos are more Hyperbole than fact).   He assumes without fact that the people writing it haven't played D&D.  We don't know if they have played or not.

It's not an assumption. You can check what their RPG-design credits are. Several of them have little or none. Even Ajit George's (who was made the lead designer of the project) only major contribution appears to be an adventure for the Candlekeep book before this, which was another make-work project for wokists. His real job is that he works for some kind of "charity" with leftist overtones. Others in Citadel include video game designers/feminists, the marketing director for critical role (obligatory hire to keep in nice with Matt Mercer?), a feminist YA sci fi writer,  and a writer of Vegan Cookbooks.  What's BLATANTLY clear is that not one of these people were primarily hired because they are skilled, experienced, or any good at game design or writing RPG adventures.

In some cases (the Vegan Cookbook writer, for example) it appears they were hired for being friends or acquaintances of Ajit George (and, we can presume other people at WoTC).

Some of these people are so totally unfamiliar with D&D they may never have actually played. One of these people, Felice Kuan (the feminist video gamer) admitted she didn't even know how to make statblocks and so she needed a WoTC permanent wage-slave  to do the mechanical work for her.

Another thing that is blatantly clear is that they were ALSO not hired for the basis of any actual knowledge of the cultures they were writing about. Almost none of them are the product of careful meaningful historical or mythological research. Most of them are just based on lived experiences as 2nd or 3rd gen immigrant descendants of those cultures (or of cultures that are themselves distantly descended from the setting; like, seriously, how does the Left believe that some kid who grew up in LA and barely speaks Persian is automatically an expert on Ancient Persian History because of magic blood?).

No, the race thing is not actually central to the hiring process, it was just a litmus test for entry. And game design skill had nothing to do with it obviously. So the only two qualifications I can see is:
a) you were a friend or business interest of either Ajit George or other people in WoTC (essentially make-work project)
b) You are a sufficient adequate of Woke totalitarian ideology.

That's it.