Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM

So what you're saying is... people in the Radiant Citadel are mind-controlled into not committing crime? Cuz that's the only way that magic could interfere in this instance.

Magic cannot "magically" make unworkable policies work, it can only change the the circumstances that prevent those policies from working and only in limited and specific ways.

So the question is: What about creatures immune to mind control? And what's the save DC for this mind-control effect? Where does it originate? What's the mind-controlling object's or creature's stats? These elements need to be defined if we're using "magic" to make these policies "work".

1: Seems so. Sounds like the spell or psi power that alter memories.

2: Since when? Magic has been making unworkable policies work for a long long time. Ravenlofts Demiplane pretty much runs on it. I've been reading through the domains and lords. And theres at least 5 that literally impose some sort of broad range mental tweaking to the populace. And thats not even getting to any locale under the influence of a wish, artifact, etc that somehow enforces some type of action. And elven supermagic can impose some pretty potent effects on an area as well.

3: Thats the one I am waiting to hear how works too as its either stupid like "naughty people cant find the Citadel everrrrrrr." or something esoteric like "Elven super magic makes it so!".

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 21, 2022, 11:53:46 PM
If true, that proves just how WoTC operates: their virtue signaling is to the Woke Twitter Mob, but then they desperately try to cover up the truth for actual customers, trying as hard as possible to pass this book off as just another great adventures book and not a piece of BLM / Defund the Police propaganda (note, by the way, the Radiant Citadel has "community policing" with restorative justice and treating crime as a mental health issue. In spite of this, and unlike everywhere in the real world where Defunding Police has been tried, the citadel supposedly has "very little crime".

In general, I think it's fair to say that the citadel displays left-leaning utopianism, similar to how Tolkien's Shire and Lothlórien display his pastoral utopianism.

Specifically about policing, though, that's seems like a weird point since professional police forces were only invented in the 1800s, and other D&D communities also often don't have professional police. For example, the Village of Hommlet has community policing in the form of the local militia. In the Radiant Citadel, there are inspectors who investigate nonviolent crime, and "highly trained local guards" who handle violence. That sounds similar to how I'd handle it in other medieval fantasy cities, except probably the local guards aren't highly trained.

Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 10:42:13 AM

Quote from: Skullking on July 22, 2022, 10:39:43 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 

So leftists are now using A Clockwork Orange as a society blueprint as well as 1984.

And The Turner Diaries - don't forget that one.

Hey, Dylan, stop using your actual picture as your avatar, 'cuz you ugly as fuck, son.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 10:28:39 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Magic cannot "magically" make

You're wrong.

Except that I'm not. Just because magic can seemingly "violate" the laws of physics in the context of a world where those laws can be bended without the entire fabric of the universe suddenly falling apart that doesn't mean that it can also make fundamentally illogical or internally inconsistent things true by fiat.

Saying that wanton murder and mutilation are morally good and desirable, and universally accepted and celebrated by everyone (including the people it's happening to), because "magic", for example, and that if you don't like it and cheer with joy as I slowly poke your eyes out with a screwdriver you simply lack imagination would be nonsensical.

QuoteEDIT: As an example, consider the Mirror Universe of Star Trek. The inhabitants of this universe are all morally hardwired toward bad behaviors and ugly morality.

And yet none that means that those behaviors aren't immoral, it just means that people in that universe are predisposed to not care. And IIRC the reason that the entire crew of the Enterprise was amoral in that episode was because in that timeline a corrupt government characterized by ladder climbing through backstabbing had emerged on Earth instead of the Federation, so they were incentivized to be brutal assholes to rise through the ranks. Not because some type of universal law arbitrarily made immoral behavior "good", because "science fiction". It was just an alternate reality, not a fundamental violation of logic.

Quote from: Omega on July 22, 2022, 11:59:40 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM

So what you're saying is... people in the Radiant Citadel are mind-controlled into not committing crime? Cuz that's the only way that magic could interfere in this instance.

Magic cannot "magically" make unworkable policies work, it can only change the the circumstances that prevent those policies from working and only in limited and specific ways.

So the question is: What about creatures immune to mind control? And what's the save DC for this mind-control effect? Where does it originate? What's the mind-controlling object's or creature's stats? These elements need to be defined if we're using "magic" to make these policies "work".

2: Since when? Magic has been making unworkable policies work for a long long time. Ravenlofts Demiplane pretty much runs on it. I've been reading through the domains and lords. And theres at least 5 that literally impose some sort of broad range mental tweaking to the populace. And thats not even getting to any locale under the influence of a wish, artifact, etc that somehow enforces some type of action. And elven supermagic can impose some pretty potent effects on an area as well.

You're gonna have to be more specific, since I'm not sure what you're talking about here regarding Ravenloft, and I don't even recall many specific details of the setting or even have the books. I only skimmed through them from a friend decades ago.

Though, I believe I specified in post how magic could indirectly make unworkable policies work (by changing the circumstances that prevent those policies from working in limited and specific ways) and I get the impression that's what you're hinting happens in Ravenloft here.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 02:29:50 PM
You're gonna have to be more specific, since I'm not sure what you're talking about here regarding Ravenloft, and I don't even recall many specific details of the setting or even have the books. I only skimmed through them from a friend decades ago.

One was I believe Bluebeards domain where everyone likes him and the populace is increasingly shaping into an ideal one for him. And no matter what he does they just explain it away. Theres another one where a powerful mentalist keeps adding more and more people under his dominion. And is in a sort of intrigue war with another potent mentalist with similar goals. Another that the land never civilizes much so that its mostly rural and animals rather than a well populated kingdom the villain craves. And so on. Some fairly sudtle. Like no matter what the heirs of the family will allways feud plot and backstab  to the end. And so on.

The PCs tend to be exempt. But I'd guess if they lingered in one place too long they might fall sway too.

Then theres those elven mega spells that exceed level 9 that can do pretty much anything. And there were mind effecting Mythals.

Outside of D&D theres the original TORG where the axioms of a cosm could overwrite things sometimes quite heavily if you faled to resist. And every time you did something contrary to those axioms it would try again to 'correct' the character. Cave man today. Gadgeteering pulp hero tomorrow.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 02:16:12 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 10:28:39 AM
EDIT: As an example, consider the Mirror Universe of Star Trek. The inhabitants of this universe are all morally hardwired toward bad behaviors and ugly morality.

And yet none that means that those behaviors aren't immoral, it just means that people in that universe are predisposed to not care. And IIRC the reason that the entire crew of the Enterprise was amoral in that episode was because in that timeline a corrupt government characterized by ladder climbing through backstabbing had emerged on Earth instead of the Federation, so they were incentivized to be brutal assholes to rise through the ranks. Not because some type of universal law arbitrarily made immoral behavior "good", because "science fiction". It was just an alternate reality, not a fundamental violation of logic.

First of all, I'd consider this off-topic from the Radiant Citadel. The citadel doesn't have broad magic that changes characters' behaviors. It just has a highly trained guard, inspectors, and powerful good-aligned authorities. There's now a separate thread discussing that here:

https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/violence-and-crime-in-the-radiant-citadel-what-and-how/

Regarding the tangent -- VisionStorm, it seems like you're conflating your own morality with how characters in the game world view morality. For example, in Traveller the Zhodani grow up in a telepathic society where literal thought police make sure that no one is antisocial or criminal. I consider their society to be evil, but they consider the thought police to be good. It is internally consistent that they believe this and that their society functions by the use of psionic powers.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 02:16:12 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 22, 2022, 10:28:39 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 10:02:12 AM
Magic cannot "magically" make

You're wrong.

Except that I'm not. Just because magic can seemingly "violate" the laws of physics in the context of a world where those laws can be bended without the entire fabric of the universe suddenly falling apart that doesn't mean that it can also make fundamentally illogical or internally inconsistent things true by fiat.

Saying that wanton murder and mutilation are morally good and desirable, and universally accepted and celebrated by everyone (including the people it's happening to), because "magic", for example, and that if you don't like it and cheer with joy as I slowly poke your eyes out with a screwdriver you simply lack imagination would be nonsensical.

QuoteEDIT: As an example, consider the Mirror Universe of Star Trek. The inhabitants of this universe are all morally hardwired toward bad behaviors and ugly morality.

And yet none that means that those behaviors aren't immoral, it just means that people in that universe are predisposed to not care. And IIRC the reason that the entire crew of the Enterprise was amoral in that episode was because in that timeline a corrupt government characterized by ladder climbing through backstabbing had emerged on Earth instead of the Federation, so they were incentivized to be brutal assholes to rise through the ranks. Not because some type of universal law arbitrarily made immoral behavior "good", because "science fiction". It was just an alternate reality, not a fundamental violation of logic.

No, the Mirror Universe fundamentally promoted a darkly warped morality for everyone native to it, not just the Terrans. There may have been some individuals in the Mirror Universe that were good people, but they were aberrations. A reverse of this might apply to the game universe that WotC is proposing for the Radiant Citadel--in it, most people are inherently cooperative with the authorities as described in RC and deviation from that is truly aberrant behvior. one that the inhabitants pull together to deal with. IOW, it's simply not a shades of gray world like IRL.

And as to your original rebuttal, magic can certainly be used to explain why things that are "fundamentally illogical" are logical in a fantasy setting--because they can alter those fundaments directly through rewriting world/setting laws (just as the Mirror Universe does with ST morality).

I'd actually consider that setting sort of interesting if it did actually go into detail of the "utopia" of psionically dominating anyone who causes trouble.  I'm reminded of the Next Gen episode where they find a world that's an amazing peaceful land of bliss, oops, turns out it's because they execute anyone for even the mildest infraction.  I could see some fertile ground for adventure if the party's rogue gets hauled off by the "community mental health professionals" after being caught shoplifting and suddenly the party has the weight of that government coming down on them when they try to save their friend from getting brain-blasted.

There is no war in Ba-sing-se.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 22, 2022, 01:53:04 PM

Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 10:42:13 AM

Quote from: Skullking on July 22, 2022, 10:39:43 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 22, 2022, 09:47:25 AM
The only context in which they mention magic in that section, however, is that in cases of severe offenses they magically mind-control a person to be unable to ever repeat the crime again. Which is quite Totalitarian and quite telling. 

So leftists are now using A Clockwork Orange as a society blueprint as well as 1984.

And The Turner Diaries - don't forget that one.

Hey, Dylan, stop using your actual picture as your avatar, 'cuz you ugly as fuck, son.

LOL. Let's just say it's not mine; rather, it's [a] Dick T's.

Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 09:48:41 AM
I personally think it's fair for WoTC to legislate when one can and cannot do "drow face" or whatever. They own the IP after all, and there have to be at least SOME occasions or situations where it isn't appropriate.

Tell us more about what WotC can legislate with their IP.

@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic". And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

So we're still ultimately saying that in order for the rules of the Radiant Citadel to work "because magic", some type of creepy mind-control has to be going on, as critics have pointed out every time this topic has come up before in prior Radiant Citadel threads. Which begs the question: how do we handle that in-game? What happens when PCs start violating these rules? What about NPC adventurers that essentially operate like PCs in terms of free will? Do these characters get hit by a charm spell? What's the save DC? What about characters with immunity to mind-control? Etc.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
So we're still ultimately saying that in order for the rules of the Radiant Citadel to work "because magic", some type of creepy mind-control has to be going on, as critics have pointed out every time this topic has come up before in prior Radiant Citadel threads. Which begs the question: how do we handle that in-game? What happens when PCs start violating these rules? What about NPC adventurers that essentially operate like PCs in terms of free will? Do these characters get hit by a charm spell? What's the save DC? What about characters with immunity to mind-control? Etc.

As I clarified earlier, if we want to talk about Radiant Citadel, I think it's more appropriate to discuss in Kerstmanneke82's thread,

Violence and Crime in the Radiant Citadel: what and how?

This stuff about magic is based on HappyDaze's hypothetical, not anything in the Radiant Citadel book.

The Radiant Citadel book says that crime rates are low because of highly trained guards who deal with violent crime and inspectors who deal with non-violent crime, as well as other authorities.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 22, 2022, 05:48:23 PM
@jhkim, HappyDaze & Omega

Everything that you're describing here seems to be some variation of extreme magical (or equivalent) brainwashing, probability manipulation or weird reality rewriting rather than policies that don't work in real life seamlessly working in fiction because "magic".

And it always seems to fall apart any time you introduce a rogue element that doesn't operate by those strictures, like PCs entering a Ravenloft domain where the Lord has some weird reality bending power within their domain, or people from outside the Star Trek Mirror Universe traveling to the Mirror Universe, either of which are unaffected.

1: Nice try moving the goalposts. But sorry. No. Those were examples of unworkable policy working because... magic. As said. Ravenloft seems to be dotted with these. Not positive but looks like the recent reveal was that there was a Mythal that was keeping dragons from rampaging too much. Now that its been tampered with it instead causes dragons to raid more.

I am rather surprised that for Citadel they didnt just have the peace being enforced by a Mythal. Wham Bam Utopia Mam.

2: Because otherwise it would be a rather short adventure if the PCs instantly fell prey to whatever mind warping is going on. And, again, Ravenloft is not always so kind to PCs.

Other times the PCs hyst havent been there long enough yet to fall under the power.

And in other cases they have to abide it like everyone else and figure out how to get the job done anyhoo.

So. So far you've just been desperately trying to cherry pick some tenuous reason your tenuous argument cant be blown away in a light breeze.

Keep struggling.

Or man up and admit that yeah there are examples that disprove your claim. Because as usual. Whatever WOTC does, Badly, odds are TSR way the hell back did better. Or even WOTC way back laid the groundwork for.

But so far looks like Radiant Citadel really is shaping up to be a poor mans knock off of Sigil.

Quote from: Shasarak on July 22, 2022, 05:23:04 PM

Quote from: Dylan Logos on July 22, 2022, 09:48:41 AM
I personally think it's fair for WoTC to legislate when one can and cannot do "drow face" or whatever. They own the IP after all, and there have to be at least SOME occasions or situations where it isn't appropriate.

Tell us more about what WotC can legislate with their IP.

At their table, event they are funding, etc? They can do whatever, outside of that? They can kiss my ass.

Edited to add:

I'm more interested on stoping Dylan's necro-threading. But, alas, unless it's against the rules I'll have to put up with THAT.