Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 06:09:21 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM
It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

The dungeon is an Egyptian-themed tomb - which fits with many other Egyptian-themed elements of the adventure (called "The Canopic Being"). Historically, many Egyptian tombs (like the pyramids at Giza) had ramps rather than stairs. So it fits thematically and in-world. It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.

The author of that dungeon did claim that it was wheelchair accessible prior to publication. As published, though, the dungeon is accessed by a ladder. That may have been a later editorial change.

While Polygon (among others) did tout the wheelchair accessibility of this 1 out of 17 dungeons, Pundit's claims went way beyond what was claimed there - saying that every dungeon since was wheelchair accessible, and that Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was in the book. Polygon mentioned the combat wheelchair, but didn't claim it was in Candlekeep or any other WotC book.

Those were all things that wokists on Twitter were stating and CHEERING about. I was reporting on their statements.

As for Radiant Citadel, which is the topic of this thread, it's pretty clear that I WAS RIGHT about the ongoing book-by-book increase in the level of Wokism. This one directly segregates caucasians entirely, defunds the police, and creates a multiculti paradise that one of the authors themselves states is meant to just be a fantasy version of New York (obviously not the REAL NYC, but rather the Progressive Utopian NYC that exists in leftists minds as the perfect city-state of their 'values').

I know exactly how that looks

Because to the woke this is what Asgard looks like if the Asgardians were black.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:13:39 PM
The combat wheelchair thing is a tempest in a teapot. It's a niche idea that spun some drama that got blown out of all proportion.

Does the combat wheelchair mark the final, irretrievable decent of D&D into the pit of wokeness? No.

Is the combat wheelchair widely used by players and promoted by game designers? No.

Is the combat wheelchair a well-thought out idea? No.

Is the combat wheelchair ridiculously polarizing. Yes.

The truth of the matter is thus:

1. Most GMs who post here would let a player play a crippled PC. I did once and it was interesting and fun. The guy started off normal but suffered a beat down that ended with him paralyzed. He continued the adventure mostly riding a donkey and getting carried sometimes by other PCs. Use a chariot, magic floating wotsit, or -gasp- a wheelchair if you want. Who fucking cares what you do in your game. 

2. There are many wheelchair athletes that could beat the living shit out of most posters on this forum. So a combat wheelchair is not a terrible idea in itself. It just doesn't fit in a world with stairs and ladders everywhere and magical healing. Unless the person can't afford such healing or can't afford a mule to ride around. Or unless, unless, unless, etc etc. It's exceedingly niche and there are many other more practical and verisimilar solutions in D&D and similar settings. Hence, the combat wheelchair is rightly derided as a ham-fisted and patronizing signal of inclusion.

3. Candlekeep has one dungeon that uses ramps instead of stairs. It also has a chamber where gravity doesn't apply, so you can float. The adventure includes a lot of mild body horror type stuff. There is no mention of wheelchairs or why ramps instead of stairs. It was written by someone who uses a wheelchair. Big woop. If you ran this adventure without knowing of the "controversy" you'd be hard-pressed to notice that the dungeon was wheelchair accessible.

And we all know that contrary to the general population, wheelchair bound athletes aren't the exception but the norm among wheelchair bound people...

Pundit being an unreliable source on account of quoting other people who turned out to be wrong is really not relevant in this situation, given that he seems to have access to the book in question this time.  And while people can certainly say, "Oh, Wizards is just providing helpful guidelines!", you can bet every dollar you own that if some streaming game shows the DM breaking one of those 'guidelines', they will immediately be pilloried for it.  It isn't just a guideline anymore if there's a person slapping a cudgel into their palm behind you.

Quote from: Valatar on July 20, 2022, 06:26:20 PM
Pundit being an unreliable source on account of quoting other people who turned out to be wrong is really not relevant in this situation, given that he seems to have access to the book in question this time.  And while people can certainly say, "Oh, Wizards is just providing helpful guidelines!", you can bet every dollar you own that if some streaming game shows the DM breaking one of those 'guidelines', they will immediately be pilloried for it.  It isn't just a guideline anymore if there's a person slapping a cudgel into their palm behind you.

And conventions will enforce it.

OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel. The quotes that Pundit is using are close to the text - but first of all, the missing context is that all of what he quotes is from a subsection clearly entitled "Online and Streamed Games". I take it this isn't advice for D&D games in general, but for D&D games made public over Youtube like Critical Role, Drunks & Dragons, and so forth. Those shows are a public face of the game, and a number of them do feature players in costume, doing make-up and/or accents, and so forth.

He has some minor misquotes at a few points. He skips over "take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears" and instead jumps to the next paragraph. He quotes "Do not lean into stereotypes or clothing with real-world significance" - but the actual sentence is "Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world *religious* significance".

Here's the full subsection:

QuoteOnline and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.

One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your role-play.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM

Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.

Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

At the time there was no way to tell it was not true. And WOTC themselves have more than once lied about book content through 5es run.
This is why every time WOTC or one of their staff make a claim. I wait and see what the actual product is because odds are it aint.

So yes in Pundits defense he got baited that time and fell for it. So did everyone else for a while. And the combat wheelchair did show up. Just not in mainstream D&D. It was added to Idle Champions round the same time. To "make D&D more welcoming". And that is exactly where I quit playing IC:FR and haven't touched it since.

Greetings!

Geesus. What is wrong with me using whatever crazy fucking accent that I want? Most people find crazy accents fucking hilarious. Getting accents down right and proper of course is fun in its own way too--but butchering accents in a crazy and terrible way is also funny. If there is someone out there that doesn't like crazy, stupid accents, or is somehow "offended"--they can get fucked.

As for cultures--real world, fantastic, and horrid mixtures of them together--that is a large part of what the fucking game is about.

Again, if some people want to clutch their pearls and sob like a bitch, they can get fucked.

This is a fucking fantasy game, for fun. Mixed with history, mythology, weird cultures, real cultures, and the kitchen sink.

People that used to play this game and be in this hobby at one time all knew these things. The people that can't seem to wrap their minds around these truths are fucking morons.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel. The quotes that Pundit is using are close to the text - but first of all, the missing context is that all of what he quotes is from a subsection clearly entitled "Online and Streamed Games". I take it this isn't advice for D&D games in general, but for D&D games made public over Youtube like Critical Role, Drunks & Dragons, and so forth. Those shows are a public face of the game, and a number of them do feature players in costume, doing make-up and/or accents, and so forth.

He has some minor misquotes at a few points. He skips over "take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears" and instead jumps to the next paragraph. He quotes "Do not lean into stereotypes or clothing with real-world significance" - but the actual sentence is "Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world *religious* significance".

Here's the full subsection:

QuoteOnline and Streamed Games. Just as you don't have to breathe fire in real life to play a dragonborn in D&D, you don't need to be from the cultures that inspired the adventures in this book to play characters from them. However, take care to portray characters as three-dimensional people with relatable desires and fears.

One person's culture isn't another's costume. If you dress up, simple outfits are best. Avoid leaning into stereotypes or clothing with real-world religious significance. Instead, focus on "everyday wear" from the cultures you're exploring. Don't change your skin color, alter your features, or emulate hair styles you wouldn't normally have to appear like a different real-world ethnicity. Similarly, avoid mocking real-world accents in your role-play.

Thanks for the extra info, jhkim.  I'll grant that streamers are more likely to do some weird cosplay thing than the average tabletop player, but if they have to be told by a book to not show up in like a rabbi outfit and blackface, I think they have bigger issues at hand.  Also, Pundit expressed confusion about the hairstyle thing, but I know exactly what it is, it's the 'white people can't have dreadlocks' idiocy from a couple years back.  I'm confused why anyone would WANT a tangled mass of unwashed hair, but there were several incidents of insufficiently-black people being assaulted over 'appropriating' dreadlocks.  That's what that part of the sentence is about.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel. The quotes that Pundit is using are close to the text - but first of all, the missing context is that all of what he quotes is from a subsection clearly entitled "Online and Streamed Games". I take it this isn't advice for D&D games in general, but for D&D games made public over Youtube like Critical Role, Drunks & Dragons, and so forth. Those shows are a public face of the game, and a number of them do feature players in costume, doing make-up and/or accents, and so forth.

  Under current circumstances, I'd be hesitant to run D&D with an unvetted group in public, much less put something out there for worldwide consumption, so this may not be bad advice for avoiding the Perpetually Outraged.

Quote from: SHARK on July 20, 2022, 08:32:46 PM
Greetings!

Geesus. What is wrong with me using whatever crazy fucking accent that I want? Most people find crazy accents fucking hilarious. Getting accents down right and proper of course is fun in its own way too--but butchering accents in a crazy and terrible way is also funny. If there is someone out there that doesn't like crazy, stupid accents, or is somehow "offended"--they can get fucked.

Och aye the noo, Sharky. Ya canne do the Korean accent again laddie.

No one can ken whacha blathering aboot.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:43:51 AMor how not all Vistani are evil

(And after some of the emotional outbursts I've seen regarding Fate of Cthulhu and the Ravenloft Campaign guide, I feel like there can be as much over reactionary screeching from the grognards as there is from the danger hairs.  "See this molehill!!!  It's massive!  Massive!"  Beam in your own eye battling with monsters and all that.)

1: This is one of the more crackheaded complaints and kowtowing. Why? Because originally the Vistani were presented as mostly nice welcoming folk. In the 2e Boxed set they are just kinda there and not presented as evil. Ruthlessly strict about maintaining racial purity. And bartering information with darklords. But not evil. Same on the White Wolf 3e version.

Fake made up Moral Outrage. Just like over orcs, drow. Got knows what next. Probably Flumphs.

2: Part of that is because alot of the big problems we face now started as little molehills. And I warned people here exactly this would happen just like last iteration in the 90s but no no no! Just ignore them and they'll go away. Well that sure worked wonders didnt it you fucking sheep!

And this has been going on so long that anything hinting of trouble now must be looked at as suspect because 9 times out of 10 it somehow fucking IS a problem. Hell a few months ago we were going over some new handicap-bait game and at first it looked like the outrage over the product was mis-aimed. That was the impression I got reading their initial statements.

Then came the followup statements and their hateful little handicapped-baiting agenda was revealed.

Also some times the over-reactions are being egged on by others. Increasingly so. And I'd lay good odds that at least a few were fakes. Woke cultists pretending. Theyve done it before. They will do it again.

Quote from: tenbones on July 20, 2022, 12:14:08 PM
You mean like in the Menzoberanzzan Boxset where the Drow were colored a nice chocolate brown?

I miss the blueberry and grape flavoured drow... 

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PMIt turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

It wasnt even empty tokenism as
a: no wheelchairs.
b: no 'accessible' dungeons.

It was all pure fabrication.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel.

I hope you didnt buy the book just to find out what it was about?

Quote from: Omega on July 20, 2022, 10:54:08 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 08:07:40 PM
OK, I've picked up Radiant Citadel.

I hope you didnt buy the book just to find out what it was about?

Of course not! He bought it to support WotC and to show his virtue.