Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM

Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.

Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 11:11:20 AM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM

Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.

Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.

Well, it IS Tubesnake. Being a dishonest, lying cur is just second nature to him.

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:26:18 AM

Quote from: DocJones on July 19, 2022, 06:11:58 PM
So my players wearing blackface is right out then?

Blackface is always bad. 
Drowface is fine, just so long as the drow isn't black.

When I visited Scotland, I learned that blackface is acceptable...for sheep.

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 11:11:20 AM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM

Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.

Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.

Nice strawman, dipshit. No one is suggesting isn't any of what you hyperbolically posited. Just, maybe, you know, take a little responsibility for posting false info and maybe correct the record afterwards, instead of trying to deflect blame by spastically bloviating, "Guys, guys, you know those lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? You know, the ones I'm always accusing of being lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? They LIED about there being wheelchair ramps in  Candlekeep! Can you believe it? I know, I was surprised, too! Who knew they were such lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags?"

Quote from: Habitual Gamer on July 20, 2022, 10:26:18 AM

Quote from: DocJones on July 19, 2022, 06:11:58 PM
So my players wearing blackface is right out then?

Blackface is always bad. 
Drowface is fine, just so long as the drow isn't black.

You mean like in the Menzoberanzzan Boxset where the Drow were colored a nice chocolate brown?

The combat wheelchair thing is a tempest in a teapot. It's a niche idea that spun some drama that got blown out of all proportion.

Does the combat wheelchair mark the final, irretrievable decent of D&D into the pit of wokeness? No.

Is the combat wheelchair widely used by players and promoted by game designers? No.

Is the combat wheelchair a well-thought out idea? No.

Is the combat wheelchair ridiculously polarizing. Yes.

The truth of the matter is thus:

1. Most GMs who post here would let a player play a crippled PC. I did once and it was interesting and fun. The guy started off normal but suffered a beat down that ended with him paralyzed. He continued the adventure mostly riding a donkey and getting carried sometimes by other PCs. Use a chariot, magic floating wotsit, or -gasp- a wheelchair if you want. Who fucking cares what you do in your game. 

2. There are many wheelchair athletes that could beat the living shit out of most posters on this forum. So a combat wheelchair is not a terrible idea in itself. It just doesn't fit in a world with stairs and ladders everywhere and magical healing. Unless the person can't afford such healing or can't afford a mule to ride around. Or unless, unless, unless, etc etc. It's exceedingly niche and there are many other more practical and verisimilar solutions in D&D and similar settings. Hence, the combat wheelchair is rightly derided as a ham-fisted and patronizing signal of inclusion.

3. Candlekeep has one dungeon that uses ramps instead of stairs. It also has a chamber where gravity doesn't apply, so you can float. The adventure includes a lot of mild body horror type stuff. There is no mention of wheelchairs or why ramps instead of stairs. It was written by someone who uses a wheelchair. Big woop. If you ran this adventure without knowing of the "controversy" you'd be hard-pressed to notice that the dungeon was wheelchair accessible.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:13:39 PM
The combat wheelchair thing is a tempest in a teapot. It's a niche idea that spun some drama that got blown out of all proportion.

Does the combat wheelchair mark the final, irretrievable decent of D&D into the pit of wokeness? No.

Is the combat wheelchair widely used by players and promoted by game designers? No.

Is the combat wheelchair a well-thought out idea? No.

Is the combat wheelchair ridiculously polarizing. Yes.

The truth of the matter is thus:

1. Most GMs who post here would let a player play a crippled PC. I did once and it was interesting and fun. The guy started off normal but suffered a beat down that ended with him paralyzed. He continued the adventure mostly riding a donkey and getting carried sometimes by other PCs. Use a chariot, magic floating wotsit, or -gasp- a wheelchair if you want. Who fucking cares what you do in your game. 

2. There are many wheelchair athletes that could beat the living shit out of most posters on this forum. So a combat wheelchair is not a terrible idea in itself. It just doesn't fit in a world with stairs and ladders everywhere and magical healing. Unless the person can't afford such healing or can't afford a mule to ride around. Or unless, unless, unless, etc etc. It's exceedingly niche and there are many other more practical and verisimilar solutions in D&D and similar settings. Hence, the combat wheelchair is rightly derided as a ham-fisted and patronizing signal of inclusion.

3. Candlekeep has one dungeon that uses ramps instead of stairs. It also has a chamber where gravity doesn't apply, so you can float. The adventure includes a lot of mild body horror type stuff. There is no mention of wheelchairs or why ramps instead of stairs. It was written by someone who uses a wheelchair. Big woop. If you ran this adventure without knowing of the "controversy" you'd be hard-pressed to notice that the dungeon was wheelchair accessible.

Yeah, but when your whole schtick is "pretending the sky is falling so you can sell umbrellas..." I mean, this thread is yet another example of that. Describing DM advice as "Regulations" is a perfect example of Pundit's hyperbolic grifting. But I can't really blame him, as the posters here line up to lap that shit right up.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 01:16:23 PM
Yeah, but when your whole schtick is "pretending the sky is falling so you can sell umbrellas..." I mean, this thread is yet another example of that. Describing DM advice as "Regulations" is a perfect example of Pundit's hyperbolic grifting. But I can't really blame him, as the posters here line up to lap that shit right up.

It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

It's no so much the combat wheelchair so much that the item itself is way overpowered if the DM allows a player who uses it to upgrade it fully.

Flight at will, AC bonus, attack bonus. Screw that you can fly at will it takes a move action to control it at all times.

It's being called an ableist and hating disabled people if not every section is of the entire world is not wheelchair accessible. I'm sorry but no not every monster or NPC is going to build their buildings to code.

As for the para-athletes and chairs yeah they can kick my ass most likely yet many here make them out to be the norm rather than the exception. I watched a documentary on 9-11 where there was a woman in a wheelchair whom two guys carried down a bunch of stairs as the elevators were out. They made it outside yet both men looked like they wen to hell and back ten times. So it's not easy even for two people to carry someone in a wheelchair down multiple flights of stairs.

You want to play a disabled character in my game go for it. Expect both the positives and drawbacks of playing such a character. Absolutely non-negotiable or up for any form of debate. Or you can find another table to play it.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 01:16:23 PM
Yeah, but when your whole schtick is "pretending the sky is falling so you can sell umbrellas..." I mean, this thread is yet another example of that. Describing DM advice as "Regulations" is a perfect example of Pundit's hyperbolic grifting. But I can't really blame him, as the posters here line up to lap that shit right up.

It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

The Polygon article, like all the other articles I've seen, states that only one of the adventures in Candlekeep will be wheelchair accessible. So, I'm not sure where the unfounded rumor that all of the dungeons in Candlekeep Mysteries were going to have ramps got started, but so far, all signs point to Pundie.

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM
It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

The dungeon is an Egyptian-themed tomb - which fits with many other Egyptian-themed elements of the adventure (called "The Canopic Being"). Historically, many Egyptian tombs (like the pyramids at Giza) had ramps rather than stairs. So it fits thematically and in-world. It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.

The author of that dungeon did claim that it was wheelchair accessible prior to publication. As published, though, the dungeon is accessed by a ladder. That may have been a later editorial change.

While Polygon (among others) did tout the wheelchair accessibility of this 1 out of 17 dungeons, Pundit's claims went way beyond what was claimed there - saying that every dungeon since was wheelchair accessible, and that Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was in the book. Polygon mentioned the combat wheelchair, but didn't claim it was in Candlekeep or any other WotC book.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM
The dungeon is an Egyptian-themed tomb - which fits with many other Egyptian-themed elements of the adventure (called "The Canopic Being"). Historically, many Egyptian tombs (like the pyramids at Giza) had ramps rather than stairs. So it fits thematically and in-world. It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.

The author of that dungeon did claim that it was wheelchair accessible prior to publication. As published, though, the dungeon is accessed by a ladder. That may have been a later editorial change.

I know. I've read it. I missed the ladder, though. It fits thematically, agreed.

There are other types of dungeons that would also not have stairs/ladders, notably abandoned mines. Also, if you're and old coot wizard constructing a heavily trapped tomb to be buried in, why would you include stairs? You're old and rich and you're paying for all this shit, so fuck stairs.

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM
It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.
...
Pundit's claims went way beyond what was claimed there - saying that every dungeon since was wheelchair accessible, and that Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was in the book.

If you're asking me to weigh a little hyperbole vs using disabled people to market stuff, well, there's no comparison. Tokenism is cynical and despicable.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 11:45:42 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 11:11:20 AM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM

Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.

Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.

Nice strawman, dipshit. No one is suggesting isn't any of what you hyperbolically posited. Just, maybe, you know, take a little responsibility for posting false info and maybe correct the record afterwards, instead of trying to deflect blame by spastically bloviating, "Guys, guys, you know those lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? You know, the ones I'm always accusing of being lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? They LIED about there being wheelchair ramps in  Candlekeep! Can you believe it? I know, I was surprised, too! Who knew they were such lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags?"

Except that you're not guilty of spreading "false info" for simply commenting on something that someone else said that later turns out to be false AFTER the fact. And you're not really responsible for making clarifications about it either, specially when you're not even the one making the original reporting on it, but merely commenting on the fact that someone else reported on it. The idea that you're supposed to keep track of everything that SOMEONE else said that you happen to have commented on at some point to make corrections on THEIR mistakes if they later turn out the to been BS is fucking ABSURD. They're not even your mistakes (or Pundit's in the case)! You merely mentioned that they said this stuff, WHICH THEY FUCKING DID!

And note that the ONLY person you're holding here responsible for this "disinformation" is the guy who commented on it. Not the website who originally reported it (who I assure you made ZERO fucking corrections either) or the guy from WotC who said the stuff that later turned out to be false, but the ONE guy who happened to have commented on it at three degrees of separation from the actual source of the "lie" (if we assume it's really a lie; maybe WotC originally planned on mentioning the wheelchairs, but later pulling them out at the last minute before publication) and happens to be your political adversary. How CONVINIENT. It's almost like this is about taking political potshots and not about real concerns about truth or clarity.

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 11:45:42 AM

Quote from: VisionStorm on July 20, 2022, 11:11:20 AM

Quote from: Tubesock Army on July 20, 2022, 10:04:53 AM

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 20, 2022, 09:20:47 AM

Quote from: RPGPundit on July 20, 2022, 07:37:35 AM

Quote from: jhkim on July 19, 2022, 04:30:46 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on July 19, 2022, 04:17:57 PM
If understand correctly, what they're telling you is that you're not allowed to be "racist." What is considered racist for this purpose and how do they intend to enforce this rule?

In general, what is the actual text talked about here? It's supposedly from Journeys through the Radiant Citadel, but I remember how Pundit previously claimed that Candlekeep Mysteries had an official combat wheelchair and that every dungeon from Candlekeep on was wheelchair-accessible - which were blatantly false.

Except that it wasn't "false", it was based on what leftist gaming media were reporting. So THEY were the liars.

Propagating a story without verifying it isn't any better.

"Guys, guys, I just repeated the lie, it's not like I was lying!"

Except that IIRC, the article Pundit was quoting in that video was published BEFORE the product was released, so there was nothing to verify, even if being expected to verify the validity of something that someone else said before commenting on the fact that they said it was a realistic or fair standard, or the same thing as lying yourself for repeating it in the context of commenting on it. Which is it isn't. But you guys knew that, you're just grasping at straws for partisan and disingenuous reasons.

Nice strawman, dipshit. No one is suggesting isn't any of what you hyperbolically posited. Just, maybe, you know, take a little responsibility for posting false info and maybe correct the record afterwards, instead of trying to deflect blame by spastically bloviating, "Guys, guys, you know those lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? You know, the ones I'm always accusing of being lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags? They LIED about there being wheelchair ramps in  Candlekeep! Can you believe it? I know, I was surprised, too! Who knew they were such lying, dishonest, wokist shitbags?"

No, really, why are you such a lying dishonest wokist shitbag?

Quote from: jhkim on July 20, 2022, 02:26:15 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on July 20, 2022, 01:30:49 PM
It cuts the other way, too. WotC got a widely disseminated puff piece about the "wheelchair accessible dungeon" that no doubt helped promote Candlekeep. They were perfectly happy to promote the book based on notions of inclusion, but the follow through was entirely different (no mention of wheelchairs or the reason for the ramps in the book itself). It turned out to be empty tokenism for promotional purposes only.

The dungeon is an Egyptian-themed tomb - which fits with many other Egyptian-themed elements of the adventure (called "The Canopic Being"). Historically, many Egyptian tombs (like the pyramids at Giza) had ramps rather than stairs. So it fits thematically and in-world. It was just marketed out of proportion with what is actually there - which is par for the course in marketing.

The author of that dungeon did claim that it was wheelchair accessible prior to publication. As published, though, the dungeon is accessed by a ladder. That may have been a later editorial change.

While Polygon (among others) did tout the wheelchair accessibility of this 1 out of 17 dungeons, Pundit's claims went way beyond what was claimed there - saying that every dungeon since was wheelchair accessible, and that Sara Thompson's homebrew "combat wheelchair" was in the book. Polygon mentioned the combat wheelchair, but didn't claim it was in Candlekeep or any other WotC book.

Those were all things that wokists on Twitter were stating and CHEERING about. I was reporting on their statements.

As for Radiant Citadel, which is the topic of this thread, it's pretty clear that I WAS RIGHT about the ongoing book-by-book increase in the level of Wokism. This one directly segregates caucasians entirely, defunds the police, and creates a multiculti paradise that one of the authors themselves states is meant to just be a fantasy version of New York (obviously not the REAL NYC, but rather the Progressive Utopian NYC that exists in leftists minds as the perfect city-state of their 'values').

Also, I've been told that the adventures are garbage, mostly single-combat encounters as lip service with the only real goal to 'present' a culture based on the dumbest stereotype mostly second-generation immigrant kids who barely speak their ancestral language much less known anything real about the culture they're writing about have dribbled out. It's pathetic. The "Venezuelan" adventure writer brags that her adventure has 'arepas'. Why? Because Leftists are massive racists and think of every ethnicity as a stereotype, usually focused around food (Breakfast Tacos, anyone?).  No mention of course of the setting having millions of people fleeing it because leftists turned it into a socialist shithole dictatorship, right?

Everything I predicted about D&D becoming increasingly more woke HAS COME TRUE, book by book.