D&D is starting a death spiral.  They hired censors to proof read their content.  The censors have to justify their jobs, so they will find content to censor that never should have censored in the first place which makes the content non-sensical.  The censors at D&D just removed the word tribal from their books.  Imagine reading this:  "There was a savage hearty tribe typal of goblins."   What the fuck are they writing about?  D&D is international with spanish, german, french, italian, japanese translations.  Congrats Seattle Language Specialists (censors), now they have to come up with a word that works in those languages and that the locals will understand.  They can't use the word "tribal" in their books to describe "typal" because in the Seattle Language its racists.  Welcome to language disjunction 101.  Going digital isn't going to them, its going to make it worse.  I run games in English with foreign nationals digitally and having to explain to them the shit Wotc puts in modules when they use made newspeak words isn't going to help.  Digital or Paper, it doesn't help when D&D isn't writing using terms that people speak.

This is a nothingburger.

This is happening because WotC is tired of customer service complaints about not getting a pdf with their order, and having to explain to a pissed off customer that they bought physical only.

Even among players who prefer to play exclusively with physical copies, the majority of people want a pdf copy with their physical purchase.

It isn't a PDF, its an online copy requiring you to use D&D Beyond.  And the search in D&D Beyond is notoriously crappy.  Meanwhile with a PDF, you can search and find what you want from the book you have easily.

I think I have officially become a grognard. I don't understand why someone would pay that much for this stuff. And look - I only play online nowadays, and 99% of the RPGs I read (and write) are PDFs. I appreciate the possibility  of quickly searching for the digital image of a monster and showing it to my players. But I see no fun in looking at a digital grid for hours. I'd rather play Dark souls, Diablo or Darkest Dungeon. Or some D&D videogame (although the last one I remember enjoying is Eye of the Beholder...)

I also don't want to play a crunchy game  and let the computer deal with the math for me. On the contrary, I want to play a game so simple that every player can understand every part of the game and make informed decisions.

Well, I can see one exception - I'd enjoy  having a dungeon map with "fog of war" effects. But constantly looking at the grid (and virtual minis) would ruin immersion for me. And the best games I've played, even online, where more talking than looking at grids and sheets.

(After writing this little rant,  I have realized I don't even know what D&D beyond does, except making  my character sheet for me.  I'm assuming it also does grids)

EDIT: okay, did some research and the graphics in the VTT do look nice. Unfortunately, there is no way I'm getting this new WotC stuff and I'm utterly disinterested in 6e. Might try roll20 with a grid someday.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on June 28, 2023, 09:11:41 AM
I think I have officially become a grognard. I don't understand why someone would pay that much for this stuff. And look - I only play online nowadays, and 99% of the RPGs I read (and write) are PDFs. I appreciate the possibility  of quickly searching for the digital image of a monster and showing it to my players. But I see no fun in looking at a digital grid for hours. I'd rather play Dark souls, Diablo or Darkest Dungeon. Or some D&D videogame (although the last one I remember enjoying is Eye of the Beholder...)

I also don't want to play a crunchy game  and let the computer deal with the math for me. On the contrary, I want to play a game so simple that every player can understand every part of the game and make informed decisions.

Well, I can see one exception - I'd enjoy  having a dungeon map with "fog of war" effects. But constantly looking at the grid (and virtual minis) would ruin immersion for me. And the best games I've played, even online, where more talking than looking at grids and sheets.

(After writing this little rant,  I have realized I don't even know what D&D beyond does, except making  my character sheet for me.  I'm assuming it also does grids)

EDIT: okay, did some research and the graphics in the VTT do look nice. Unfortunately, there is no way I'm getting this new WotC stuff and I'm utterly disinterested in 6e. Might try roll20 with a grid someday.

IIRC you can make the grid invisible, not snap the minis to it and deactivate other grid related effects.

I have already stopped buying WOTC products and after talking to my group, none of them are interested in moving to 6e so I think they are going to lose a bunch of people buying their books.  The people in my group actually have all of the books or a lot of the books, they aren't the freeloaders who just buy maybe a PHB and that's it.

Stupid move and I knew this is what they were going for.   I will just run 5e and work towards moving fully to the OSR.

I don't buy books from a company that hates me

Quote from: GhostNinja on June 28, 2023, 01:24:41 PM
I have already stopped buying WOTC products and after talking to my group, none of them are interested in moving to 6e so I think they are going to lose a bunch of people buying their books.  The people in my group actually have all of the books or a lot of the books, they aren't the freeloaders who just buy maybe a PHB and that's it.

Stupid move and I knew this is what they were going for.   I will just run 5e and work towards moving fully to the OSR.

I don't buy books from a company that hates me

The thing is, its a RPG with the DM writing the rules.  You can take everything from 6E, implement what you chose to implement and WotC gets no revenue from it.  It's what I've been doing with my group for the last three years now.

Quote from: Corolinth on June 28, 2023, 08:38:49 AM
This is a nothingburger.

This is happening because WotC is tired of customer service complaints about not getting a pdf with their order, and having to explain to a pissed off customer that they bought physical only.

Even among players who prefer to play exclusively with physical copies, the majority of people want a pdf copy with their physical purchase.

It's not a Nothingburger, and they're not PDFs, the digital copies are useless outside of D&DB, and fully open to WotC deciding that for ESG reasons they "have to" change content, remove content, or shit if they don't like you, then take the books from you.  Now, you might think that's insane sounding, and you might hate Jeremy Hambly, but the fact is, WotC removed ALL of his digitally purchased MTG cards from him - and that was a good few years back. 

Soon, WotC will move to "Oh, well, Digital outsells books anyway, haha we don't sell books but you can still buy them at..." and then they'll assfuck the FLGS'es, and only "certain partners" will have them - Amazon, B&N, etc., who in turn will be pressured to adopt the digital only copies.

Don't act like it won't happen, either.  Don't even pretend to lie and act like it won't.  Because it will.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 28, 2023, 01:30:12 PM
The thing is, its a RPG with the DM writing the rules.  You can take everything from 6E, implement what you chose to implement and WotC gets no revenue from it.  It's what I've been doing with my group for the last three years now.

For me, 5th edition was only OK to me and 6th edition just gives the same information and has just become WOKE.

OSR products give me D&D like I remember it.  I can run 5e until my books fall apart and there are just so many other options.

I think WOTC is making a mistake but it's their mistake and doesn't affect me anymore.

Quote from: GhostNinja on June 28, 2023, 01:44:42 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 28, 2023, 01:30:12 PM
The thing is, its a RPG with the DM writing the rules.  You can take everything from 6E, implement what you chose to implement and WotC gets no revenue from it.  It's what I've been doing with my group for the last three years now.

For me, 5th edition was only OK to me and 6th edition just gives the same information and has just become WOKE.

OSR products give me D&D like I remember it.  I can run 5e until my books fall apart and there are just so many other options.

I think WOTC is making a mistake but it's their mistake and doesn't affect me anymore.

The rules from 6E, not the content.  I offer the 6E sorcerer and the 6E warlock by default because it fixes issues with the class.  The warlock as written is unplayable in any campaign with a basis in reality.  Casting Eldritch Blast as your main attack and having less spells than a retarded syphillitic familiar with the assumption that gee you'll just take a short rest every hour, its no where near good game design.  The warlock was made for 5 room dungeons with two encounters, a puzzle, a trap and a reveal room, that's it.  It is why for the most part people use locks as dips not main players characters.  The 6E sorc was made a half caster with medium armor, like the artificer but actually useful to game play abilities.  The 6E sorcerer was just given more spells, which I was already doing in the first place and that's the only thing I take from 6E for sorc.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on June 28, 2023, 12:00:29 PM
IIRC you can make the grid invisible, not snap the minis to it and deactivate other grid related effects.

I generally find that a lot better, unless I'm playing a heavily grid based game like 4e D&D.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 28, 2023, 01:44:00 PM

Quote from: Corolinth on June 28, 2023, 08:38:49 AM
This is a nothingburger.

This is happening because WotC is tired of customer service complaints about not getting a pdf with their order, and having to explain to a pissed off customer that they bought physical only.

Even among players who prefer to play exclusively with physical copies, the majority of people want a pdf copy with their physical purchase.

It's not a Nothingburger, and they're not PDFs, the digital copies are useless outside of D&DB, and fully open to WotC deciding that for ESG reasons they "have to" change content, remove content, or shit if they don't like you, then take the books from you.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 28, 2023, 01:44:00 PM
Soon, WotC will move to "Oh, well, Digital outsells books anyway, haha we don't sell books but you can still buy them at..." and then they'll assfuck the FLGS'es, and only "certain partners" will have them - Amazon, B&N, etc., who in turn will be pressured to adopt the digital only copies.

Wait. So as I understand it -- one can still buy physical books alone from their different marketers (FLGS, Barnes & Noble, etc.), and one can still buy physical books direct from their website, but now they always bundle in D&DBeyond access along with the physical book when you order directly from them. Is that right?

If so, my apologies - I had misunderstood earlier.

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 28, 2023, 01:53:58 PM

Quote from: GhostNinja on June 28, 2023, 01:44:42 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 28, 2023, 01:30:12 PM
The thing is, its a RPG with the DM writing the rules.  You can take everything from 6E, implement what you chose to implement and WotC gets no revenue from it.  It's what I've been doing with my group for the last three years now.

For me, 5th edition was only OK to me and 6th edition just gives the same information and has just become WOKE.

OSR products give me D&D like I remember it.  I can run 5e until my books fall apart and there are just so many other options.

I think WOTC is making a mistake but it's their mistake and doesn't affect me anymore.

The rules from 6E, not the content.  I offer the 6E sorcerer and the 6E warlock by default because it fixes issues with the class.  The warlock as written is unplayable in any campaign with a basis in reality.  Casting Eldritch Blast as your main attack and having less spells than a retarded syphillitic familiar with the assumption that gee you'll just take a short rest every hour, its no where near good game design.  The warlock was made for 5 room dungeons with two encounters, a puzzle, a trap and a reveal room, that's it.  It is why for the most part people use locks as dips not main players characters.  The 6E sorc was made a half caster with medium armor, like the artificer but actually useful to game play abilities.  The 6E sorcerer was just given more spells, which I was already doing in the first place and that's the only thing I take from 6E for sorc.

I always liked the 5e Warlock precisely because of its short rest recovery precisely because the DM of that campaign used the alternate recovery times of "short rest = 8 hours and long rest = 3 full days in a fully safe environment like a town."

My Celestial Warlock was the only thing keeping the party from a TPK at some points since I had healing spells that recovered on a short rest instead of needing 3 days in town to recover spells and nearly a full week to recover all your lost hit dice if you'd used more than half (which was nearly always).

Even in a regular game though it was the Warlock invocations that mattered way more than their spells (though the fact you always upcast your warlock spells to the highest level you've got was also handy)... Tome letting you snag extra cantrips from any class also provided a lot of extra utility. They're much closer in execution to a magically augmented rogue than to a wizard-style caster of spells.

Honestly, I've found the class designs for the fan produced Star Wars 5e (including their reworks of the fighter, monk, barbarian/berserker, and rogue/operative) far more innovative than anything WotC's done with the rules.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on June 28, 2023, 01:44:00 PM
It's not a Nothingburger, and they're not PDFs, the digital copies are useless outside of D&DB,

Agreed.  I only buy print product and not .pdfs.  Why?  .pdfs are incomplete products that I have to print to make them useful to me.  If a product does not have a print option then I will ignore it and find something else

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on June 28, 2023, 01:53:58 PM
The rules from 6E, not the content.  I offer the 6E sorcerer and the 6E warlock by default because it fixes issues with the class.  The warlock as written is unplayable in any campaign with a basis in reality.  Casting Eldritch Blast as your main attack and having less spells than a retarded syphillitic familiar with the assumption that gee you'll just take a short rest every hour, its no where near good game design.  The warlock was made for 5 room dungeons with two encounters, a puzzle, a trap and a reveal room, that's it.  It is why for the most part people use locks as dips not main players characters.  The 6E sorc was made a half caster with medium armor, like the artificer but actually useful to game play abilities.  The 6E sorcerer was just given more spells, which I was already doing in the first place and that's the only thing I take from 6E for sorc.

I may do this if the information become available but I won't do it if I have to pay WOTC a dime.  Never again.