Quote from: 3catcircus on January 18, 2023, 07:58:58 PM
...Brink is the sacrificial anode. Which is a shame because he is a former Spectrum-Holobytecand Microprose guy and I have a soft spot in my heart for Falcon 3.0 and F-15 Strike Eagle...

If he was involved in making the 'definitive, never equaled, best manual, AI amazing, I'll-never-stop-loving you' Falcon, then the man's already a Saint and whatever he does will be overlooked from me, short of burning down the whole hobby.  S!

<edit> he wrote the User Manual: all is forgiven.

Quote from: estar on January 18, 2023, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 18, 2023, 03:38:01 PM
"D&D" will be the euphemism we continue to use for playing TTRPG's regardless of the actual mechanics or systems we use.

D&D, the Kleenex™ of tabletop roleplaying.

Genericization is actually a risk to Wotzi if this OGL stuff goes to court.

Who actually invented what when it comes to certain creatures and names can be contested. Gygax pulled from a lot of different sources, and fellow gamers when he wrote D&D...

Quote from: 3catcircus on January 18, 2023, 07:58:58 PM
The *key* words are "...have published..." when talking about OGL 1.0a. That's present perfect tense.  That implies *only* that if you publish something under it, it's all good. It does *nothing* to indicate that new stuff for new editions will be allowed to be published under 1.0a, nor that if you accept the update to publish new edition stuff, you'll still be allowed to use 1.0a for older editions.  The great unknown is whether or not you can publish under 1.0a simultaneously with the new version or if you'll be in the same boat as when the GSL cancer came on the scene.

Bottom line - WotC is still trying to rearrange the decks chairs.  Those who've decided to bail on them need to hold firm in that decision.

WotC hasn't budged an inch. That last statement from them was very carefully worded.

If they get people to accept "we're allowing the OGL 1.0a to remain in effect for previously published products, but anything going forward must use the new version of the OGL..." then they'll have established that they have the authority to not only revoke (or de-authorize, or whatever) the OGL 1.0a, but they can even dictate specific circumstances under which it may or may not be considered authorized. Then, a few years later when they decide to revoke it entirely they'll be in a better position than they are currently, and can point to how everyone clearly understood they had such authority by accepting this new license which said so, and has been in use for years...

Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on January 19, 2023, 01:29:21 AM
WotC hasn't budged an inch. That last statement from them was very carefully worded.

If they get people to accept "we're allowing the OGL 1.0a to remain in effect for previously published products, but anything going forward must use the new version of the OGL..." then they'll have established that they have the authority to not only revoke (or de-authorize, or whatever) the OGL 1.0a, but they can even dictate specific circumstances under which it may or may not be considered authorized. Then, a few years later when they decide to revoke it entirely they'll be in a better position than they are currently, and can point to how everyone clearly understood they had such authority by accepting this new license which said so, and has been in use for years...

Yes. And ultimately, they've managed to kill the OGL either way. They've shown that they, and thus the OGL, can't be trusted. So any new project that gets started is going to be released on a different license, and with compatibility with a system that isn't D&D.

Certain OSR products are kind of stuck (OSE and OSRIC), but the rest can move on - familiar mechanics, but different classes, different spells and different monsters.

For this to change, Paizo would need to deliberately provoke them by re-releasing Pathfinder 1e, but they seem to be already set on 2e and leaving the OGL, so we won't see that legal battle.

Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2023, 10:02:54 PM

Quote from: estar on January 18, 2023, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 18, 2023, 03:38:01 PM
"D&D" will be the euphemism we continue to use for playing TTRPG's regardless of the actual mechanics or systems we use.

D&D, the Kleenex™ of tabletop roleplaying.

Genericization is actually a risk to Wotzi if this OGL stuff goes to court.

Who actually invented what when it comes to certain creatures and names can be contested. Gygax pulled from a lot of different sources, and fellow gamers when he wrote D&D...

That's exactly why I'm happy. I don't think it matters now. The cat is out of the bag. The ORC? Fine whatever, there will be other Licenses, just like there are now with non-d20 systems, to the point where effectively all these licenses will be a blanket of insulation that will protect us as WotC will be in no real position to waste money suing. What would be the point? They already splintered their own market and have fully committed to this course of hybrid video-boardgaming - the amount of time it will take for them to turn around and grab those they left behind (if they even care) will be moot.

I do believe they will make money. More money than they're making now. I think they will lose a lot of players, but they're going to make that up in subscriptions and microtransactions from those that follow. I mean if it's true that GM's spend 5x more than players (and I believe that number)... a $30 dollar subscription from *everyone* playing, plus microtransactions? That's a LOT of people they can afford to lose who *weren't* paying WotC a single a dime.

And I'm sure it will bring in people that play videogames that never played "D&D" before... but in the end, we'll be left to our own devices. And I've been saying it here for a long time "D&D" isn't whatever WotC poops out of their HQ in Seattle. It's a genre of fantasy *we* engage in at our tables. No amount of corpspeak will change that. We make it what we want as we always have, no one has used the rules RAW all the time, and never have. Not even Gygax. That principle *is* the rule and remains so now more than ever.

It just took this event for this generation of 5e nerdzerkers to see it. Just like 4e fans did before, and 3e before that, and 2e fans before that, etc. The constant going backwards to rediscover what we lost, only to find that we became ostracized by whatever the modern edition Orthodoxy of WotC declared. Well here we are again. The only thing constant about D&D is the name and the elements we use when rolling dice.

We don't need WotC. Especially now. And that's okay.

Quote from: tenbones on January 19, 2023, 10:22:52 AM

Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2023, 10:02:54 PM

Quote from: estar on January 18, 2023, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 18, 2023, 03:38:01 PM
"D&D" will be the euphemism we continue to use for playing TTRPG's regardless of the actual mechanics or systems we use.

D&D, the Kleenex™ of tabletop roleplaying.

Genericization is actually a risk to Wotzi if this OGL stuff goes to court.

Who actually invented what when it comes to certain creatures and names can be contested. Gygax pulled from a lot of different sources, and fellow gamers when he wrote D&D...

And I'm sure it will bring in people that play videogames that never played "D&D" before... but in the end, we'll be left to our own devices. And I've been saying it here for a long time "D&D" isn't whatever WotC poops out of their HQ in Seattle. It's a genre of fantasy *we* engage in at our tables. No amount of corpspeak will change that. We make it what we want as we always have, no one has used the rules RAW all the time, and never have. Not even Gygax. That principle *is* the rule and remains so now more than ever.

It just took this event for this generation of 5e nerdzerkers to see it. Just like 4e fans did before, and 3e before that, and 2e fans before that, etc. The constant going backwards to rediscover what we lost, only to find that we became ostracized by whatever the modern edition Orthodoxy of WotC declared. Well here we are again. The only thing constant about D&D is the name and the elements we use when rolling dice.

I like your overall point but, why do you cling to the word D&D. If anything we should be distancing ourselves from it, and the company that owns its name. Clinging to copyrighted terms just hurts the genre.

Quote from: Yabba on January 19, 2023, 09:12:32 PMI like your overall point but, why do you cling to the word D&D.

Acccctttuuaaalllllyyyyy it's an acronym.

So all this $30 stuff, no homebrew, AI GM, all of that turned out to be entirely false (as of news today).

Quote from: Mistwell on January 20, 2023, 01:08:29 AM
So all this $30 stuff, no homebrew, AI GM, all of that turned out to be entirely false (as of news today).

The corporation said so, therefore we must all believe it, all hail the corporation!

Quote from: Mistwell on January 20, 2023, 01:08:29 AM
So all this $30 stuff, no homebrew, AI GM, all of that turned out to be entirely false (as of news today).

Almost as if discrediting leakers and the most vocal youtubers were a good thing, by leaking what can be later discredited.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 19, 2023, 10:34:13 PM

Quote from: Yabba on January 19, 2023, 09:12:32 PMI like your overall point but, why do you cling to the word D&D.

Acccctttuuaaalllllyyyyy it's an acronym.

For Dingleberries & Diddlers, right?

Quote from: Lynn on January 20, 2023, 01:41:34 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on January 20, 2023, 01:08:29 AM
So all this $30 stuff, no homebrew, AI GM, all of that turned out to be entirely false (as of news today).

Almost as if discrediting leakers and the most vocal youtubers were a good thing, by leaking what can be later discredited.

Or see what the reaction is. If it's neutral or even positive, they go ahead with it, but weren't committed to anything.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 19, 2023, 10:34:13 PM

Quote from: Yabba on January 19, 2023, 09:12:32 PMI like your overall point but, why do you cling to the word D&D.

Acccctttuuaaalllllyyyyy it's an acronym.

Terribly sorry good sir. I be of yee forgiveness.

Quote from: Mistwell on January 20, 2023, 01:08:29 AM
So all this $30 stuff, no homebrew, AI GM, all of that turned out to be entirely false (as of news today).

I thought the same thing. I guess that could still show up as changes to D&DBeyond, but  something seemed off from the jump with that leak.

Planted leaks are useful to discredit sources, expose moles, and make real bad news easier to swallow. I'm not saying WotC planted the $30/AI-DM leak but I wouldn't put it past them.