Quote from: Jaeger on January 18, 2023, 10:02:54 PM

Quote from: estar on January 18, 2023, 03:42:58 PM

Quote from: tenbones on January 18, 2023, 03:38:01 PM
"D&D" will be the euphemism we continue to use for playing TTRPG's regardless of the actual mechanics or systems we use.

D&D, the Kleenex™ of tabletop roleplaying.

Genericization is actually a risk to Wotzi if this OGL stuff goes to court.

Who actually invented what when it comes to certain creatures and names can be contested. Gygax pulled from a lot of different sources, and fellow gamers when he wrote D&D...

Perhaps, but we still run afoul of the "exty points of similarity" problem. While D&D draws heavily on folklore and literature, the D&Disms aren't the same thing.

Quote from: rytrasmi on January 20, 2023, 09:35:34 AM
Planted leaks are useful to discredit sources, expose moles, and make real bad news easier to swallow. I'm not saying WotC planted the $30/AI-DM leak but I wouldn't put it past them.

The thing is, even if it's not literally true, the fact that many were willing to believe it speaks to the depth of PR hole Hasbro dug for itself and this particular rumor being wrong doesn't actually fix all the problems we know exist.

I mean there was WW2 propaganda of the Japanese Emperor as a vampire bat in a Nazi uniform. That it was a lie didn't make anyone more sympathetic to the Japanese because what they were already actually doing was horrible enough that "not being literal Satan" was not going to save them.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 20, 2023, 09:50:19 AM
Perhaps, but we still run afoul of the "exty points of similarity" problem. While D&D draws heavily on folklore and literature, the D&Disms aren't the same thing.

This is the part a lot of people are struggling with in coming to grips with the OGL going away. I've taken to calling them "concept stacks" (borrowing from Scott Adams' talent stacks concept) and D&D is actually loaded to the gills with them.

The D&D cleric, for example, is a concept stack a lot of people need to be more aware of because it is SUCH a D&D-ism that is not found in media not directly derived from D&D.

- traveling priest
- who casts spells
- with a focus on healing and buffing
- and prepares them into level-based slots
- and can repel/destroy undead
- and wears heavy armor
- and has a limited weapon selection based on their faith

That is a very specific expression of a character class in a game system. Particularly if you're also using the same set of available spells at the same levels in a traditional fantasy setting.

In terms of copyright that is something you want to avoid with extreme prejudice and if you are determined to use it, you either need to replace about half that concept stack with other concepts or split up the means of assembly into smaller chunks so that particular assembly is just one particular way separate concepts can be assembled.

For example; in my system you could pretty much get everything in that Cleric concept stack except the slot-based preparation (because my system doesn't use that for any of its magic)... BUT only by assembling the Theurge class (spellcasting) with the Militant focus (for the heavy armor; other options being faithful, martyr, and zealous) and the Benedictor path (focus on healing/buffing) and the Religious background (being an actual priest) who takes the Repel Supernatural boon (turn/destroy undead).

Each part of the D&D cleric concept stack is there... but only as an individual concept that is not copyrightable on its own and "but a player 'could' assemble them into a D&D cleric" isn't a valid argument either.

Yup. I assembled a list of monsters from the 5e SRD and checked their origins to see whether they were safe. This is the result:

Just looking at the 5e SRD, a lot of monsters would need to at least be renamed because their expression is a D&Dism.
Aboleth: D&D original monster.
Angels, Deva, Planetar and Solar: while loosely based on Theosophy, this expression is a D&Dism.
Animated Objects: not distinct enough to be a D&Dism.
Ankheg: D&D original monster, but can probably be renamed to "giant ant" or something
Azer: D&D original.
Basilisk: public domain monster from medieval bestiaries
Behir: based on the public domain dragon "beithir" from Scottish folklore.
Bugbear: this expression is a D&Dism, but the name comes from folklore.
Bulette: D&D original monster based on cheap Chinese dinosaur toys. Could probably be modified to a "land shark" or something
Centaur: public domain monster from Greek myth
Chimera: public domain monster from Greek myth
Chuul: D&D original
Cloaker: D&D original
Cockatrice: public domain monster from medieval bestiaries
Couatl: based on public domain deity Queztalcoatl
Darkmantle: D&D original
Demons: the names and expressions are D&D originals
Devils: the names and expressions are D&D originals
Devil, Imp: public domain monster from Germanic folklore
Devil: Erinyes: public domain monster from Greek myth
Devil, Chain: a ripoff of the cenobites from Clive Barker's Hellraiser
Dinosaur: real animals and therefore public domain
Doppelganger: while the name comes from Germanic folklore about a portent of death, this expression is a D&Dism.
Dragons, Chromatic: this expression of color-coded breath weapons is a D&Dism.
Dragons, Metallic: ditto.
Dragon Turtle: public domain monster from Chinese folklore
Drider: D&D original
Dryad: public domain from Greek myth
Duergar: D&D original. The name is derived from the same source as dwarf, which is a public domain monster.
Elementals: public domain monster derived from the writings of Paracelsus, though the homogenous mass of elemental material appears to be a D&Dism as Paracelsus' elementals were fairies
Elf, Drow: while "dark elves" exist in Norse myth, they're probably the same as dwarves. This expression is a D&Dism.
Ettercap: D&Dism, although the name may derive from Danish Edderkop (spider).
Ettin: D&Dism. The name is the English/Anglo-Saxon cognate of Norse jotun, translated as "giant" although ettins were not universally large in myth.
Fungus: no clue, but I wouldn't chance it.
Gargoyles: public domain monster from the early 20th century
Genies: public domain monster from Arabic folklore, although "djinni" is just a variant spelling of genie/jinn and ifrit is a synonym.
Ghost: public domain monster from world mythology
Ghoul: public domain monster from Arabic folklore
Ghast: public domain monster from Lovecraft stories
Giant: public domain monster from Indo-European myths, but some of the D&D expressions may not have sufficient public domain reference to substitute
Gibbering Mouther: D&Dism, but probably based on Lovecraft's public domain shoggoth
Gnoll: name comes from Dunsany, but the hyena thing is a D&Dism
Gnome, Deep: as distinct from gnomes, a D&Dism
Goblin: public domain monster, although it doesn't have fixed traits in folklore and is synonymous with fairies in general
Golem: public domain monster from Jewish folklore, although the specific traits of being resistant to magic and such are a D&Dism. Other kinds of golems are based on Frankenstein, Greek myth automatons, etc.
Gorgon: a misnamed depiction of the Catoblepas from medieval bestiaries, propagated by Topsell. In Greek myth the Gorgons are snake-haired monstresses
Grick: D&Dism, maybe loosely based on Brian Lumley's The Burrowers Beneath
Griffon: public domain monster from medieval bestiaries
Grimlock: renamed from Morlock's in the Time Machine novel, which is public domain
Hag: based on European fairy tales and folklore.
Hag, Night: based on myths around sleep paralysis
Half-dragon: rare in myth and folklore, but a few examples exist such as the Slavic dragon-hero
Harpy: public domain monster from Greek myth
Hell Hound: public domain monster from various mythologies and folklore
Hippogriff: public domain monster from Greek myth (originally invented as a joke)
Hobgoblin: the name is public domain, but refers to a smaller friendlier variety of goblin. The bigger goblin idea is a D&Dism based on a misreading of a line from Tolkien.
Homunculus: public domain monster from medieval alchemy
Hydra: public domain monster from Greek myth
Invisible Stalker: D&D original
Kobold: D&Dism. Name comes from Germanic folklore, where it is a synonym for goblin.
Kraken: public domain monster from Norse myth
Lamia: public domain monster from Greek myth, tho the D&D depiction is based on Topsell's bestiary
Lich: the name is a D&Dism (it's just the original English word for corpse before being displaced by French loan word), although the basic idea is based on a mashup of the fairy tale of Koschei the Deathless and the character Afgorkon from the Kothar the Barbarian stories
Lizardfolk: unknown origin, although reptilian humanoids are found in public domain pulp stories.
Lycanthrope: public domain monster from European folklore and Hollywood movies
Magmin: D&D original
Manticore: public domain monster from medieval bestiaries
Medusa: public domain monster from Greek myth
Mephit: D&D original
Merfolk: public domain monster from nautical folklore
Merrow: public domain monster from Hiberno-English folklore, tho the exact traits differ from the D&D depiction
Mimic: D&D original
Minotaur: public domain monster from Greek myth, although the original couldn't solve mazes and was trapped in one for that reason
Mummy: public domain monster from gothic literature and Hollywood movies
Naga: public domain monster from Vedic folklore, tho the D&D expression is probably original
Nightmare: nightmare horses are a public domain monster of unclear origin (probably wordplay), but the association with Hell is a D&Dism
Ogre: public domain monster from European fairytales
Oni: public domain monster from Japanese fairytales
Ooze: D&D original, loosely inspired by nature
Orc: copied from Tolkien. Inspired by folklore, but the hordes of evil concept was invented by Tolkien
Otyugh: D&D original
Owlbear: D&D original based on a toy
Pegasus: public domain monster from Greek myth
Pseudodragon: D&D original, although "dragonets" (tiny dragons) are found in folklore
Purple Worm: D&D original, possibly based on the Mongolian death worm
Rakshasa: name comes from Vedic folklore, but the depiction as tiger-men with backwards hands is a D&Dism
Remorhaz: D&D original
Roc: public domain monster from medieval bestiaries
Roper: D&D original
Rust Monster: D&D original based on a toy
Sahuagin: D&D original, maybe based on Creature from the Black Lagoon
Salamander: public domain monster from writings of Paracelsus
Shadow: public domain, as similar creatures appear in fairytales and gothic literature
Shambling Mound: D&D original
Shield Guardian: D&D original
Skeleton: public domain, seen in Ray Harryhausen movies
Specter: public domain, synonym of ghost
Sphinx: public domain monster from Egyptian and Greek myth
Spider Eater: a giant version of real life spider-hunting parasitic wasps
Sprite: public domain monsters from fairy lore
Stirge: D&Dism, based on the Greek strix and mosquitos
Succubus/Incubus: public domain monster from European folklore
Tarrasque: D&Dism, but based on the French Tarasque
Treant: copied from Tolkien's Ents, renamed to avoid copyright claim (ironic, no?)
Trolls: public domain monster from European fairytales, although the D&D version is based on a story by Poul Anderson
Unicorn: public domain monster from medieval bestiaries
Vampire: public domain monster from Slavic folklore and Bram Stoker's Dracula novel
Wight: D&Dism, loosely based on Tolkien's barrow-wights, which were based on Norse draugs. The original word has acquired multiple meanings.
Will-O'-Wisp: public domain monster from fairy lore
Wraith: public domain, synonym for ghost
Wyvern: public domain monster from medieval bestiaries
Xorn: D&D original
Zombie: public domain monster from Haitian Voodoo

Even if the monster does come from public domain, you'll need to be careful not to replicate any D&D-specific expressions.

Larger lists can be found here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20180810053344/http://rpg.crg4.com/origins.html
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=60560

The monsters I marked as D&D originals without public domain inspiration are probably off limits since they can be trademarked

Wights as intelligent energy drainers may be off the table but thanks to GRRM and HBO the term "Wight" as a generic undead monster is pretty wide open.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 2023, 11:21:04 AM
Wights as intelligent energy drainers may be off the table but thanks to GRRM and HBO the term "Wight" as a generic undead monster is pretty wide open.

It doesn't predate D&D tho. If you want to avoid the concept stack problem, then you're probably safer using the expanded definitions. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wight#Noun

Where D&D trips you up is that it uses wight only for a specific undead creature, when in fact it already has multiple valid meanings. There's nothing about the name "barrow-wight" that indicates it is an undead creature. Maybe it's the angry ghost of the interred attacking grave robbers, maybe it's a spirit that was summoned and bound to guard the tomb, maybe it's a wandering being that took up residence and claims the treasure. Maybe it's not even connected to a tomb at all, but a house, a forge, a parcel of land, etc.

Also, I just like the whole Anglo-Saxon feel of using the word in all those contexts.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 20, 2023, 11:39:49 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 2023, 11:21:04 AM
Wights as intelligent energy drainers may be off the table but thanks to GRRM and HBO the term "Wight" as a generic undead monster is pretty wide open.

It doesn't predate D&D tho. If you want to avoid the concept stack problem, then you're probably safer using the expanded definitions. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wight#Noun

Where D&D trips you up is that it uses wight only for a specific undead creature, when in fact it already has multiple valid meanings. There's nothing about the name "barrow-wight" that indicates it is an undead creature. Maybe it's the angry ghost of the interred attacking grave robbers, maybe it's a spirit that was summoned and bound to guard the tomb, maybe it's a wandering being that took up residence and claims the treasure. Maybe it's not even connected to a tomb at all, but a house, a forge, a parcel of land, etc.

Also, I just like the whole Anglo-Saxon feel of using the word in all those contexts.

I use Wight in my system as the term for all intelligent corporeal undead (with Wraith referring to all intelligent incorporeal undead). I just like the alliteration of Wights & Wraiths.

What D&D calls a Lich is, in my system, a Wight Necromancer. What D&D calls a Death Knight is a Wight Knight (because puns) or a Wight Warlord. Mummies are wights wearing infected burial clothes to protect them from direct sunlight (because ALL undead in my setting burn in direct sunlight).

I also have ghouls, but they are expressly a demonically empowered wight (and basically replace vampires as lords of the undead in my setting).

Throw in their origin as literally the chosen spawn of my Satan-expy (even more so than the other demons) and the combined whole is a very different concept stack from the D&D variety.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 20, 2023, 11:09:06 AM
Ooze: D&D original, loosely inspired by nature

Eh, "ooze" is a pretty broad concept. Not only are they giant versions of things found in nature, as you say, they seem specifically inspired by prior art, such as Lovecraft 's shoggoths, Slime (1953), and The Blob (1958),

Quote from: Zalman on January 20, 2023, 12:32:38 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on January 20, 2023, 11:09:06 AM
Ooze: D&D original, loosely inspired by nature

Eh, "ooze" is a pretty broad concept. Not only are they giant versions of things found in nature, as you say, they seem specifically inspired by prior art, such as Lovecraft 's shoggoths, Slime (1953), and The Blob (1958),

Yeah. The specific names and powers of the individual monsters seem to be D&D firsts tho.

I've been looking at the title of this thread for a few days, and I'm still thinking that they haven't gotten anywhere close to what I can imagine.  I'd give specifics, but I don't want to give the Woke any ideas.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 20, 2023, 01:21:52 PM
I've been looking at the title of this thread for a few days, and I'm still thinking that they haven't gotten anywhere close to what I can imagine.  I'd give specifics, but I don't want to give the Woke any ideas.

   I think they're saving "Trample a crucifix, pledge allegiance to the Progressive Pride Flag, and offer sacrifice to the Lords of Hell" for the OneD&D rollout campaign.

Quote from: Chris24601 on January 20, 2023, 10:03:08 AM
I mean there was WW2 propaganda of the Japanese Emperor as a vampire bat in a Nazi uniform. That it was a lie didn't make anyone more sympathetic to the Japanese because what they were already actually doing was horrible enough that "not being literal Satan" was not going to save them.

Just because that was false doesn't mean that Cynthia Williams is not a reptilian.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on January 20, 2023, 01:21:52 PM
I've been looking at the title of this thread for a few days, and I'm still thinking that they haven't gotten anywhere close to what I can imagine.  I'd give specifics, but I don't want to give the Woke any ideas.

I may have been guilty of mild clickbait.