So I was at my local chain bookstore the other day and they're offering "Buy one D&D product, get the second for half off." Just curious if others have seen this where they live? Could be the first/next stage in eliminating physical products in stores. And as far as I could tell, it was D&D stuff only, not all RPGs, though probably 90% of their stock is D&D.
D&D sales are currently the worse they've ever been. Granted, it's still the biggest seller in the industry, and that has to be kept in mind... But sales of books are at the lowest they've ever been since 5th edition released.
But that same sale might be because the new edition is releasing next year, and your retailer is trying to get rid of backstock which is even more likely to sit on the shelf once it becomes outdated. Cause no matter how WotC tries to brand it as "Backwards compatiable" we all know that's gonna be a lie.
That combined with Hasbro basically firing everyone who works on D&D doesn't bode well for the brand as a whole.
I think two things might be happening.
With 5.5 on the visible horizon, its sell through current stock or get the 'dead stock' back.
With changes in their distribution, it could well be that related (and soon to be ex) partners are being told to sell through for the same reason. But with them, there is no 'stock rotation' for new books.
Quote from: Orphan81 on December 20, 2023, 06:37:36 PM
Cause no matter how WotC tries to brand it as "Backwards compatiable" we all know that's gonna be a lie.
Are you saying WOTC would lie to us? How dare you! ;D
To answer the question, Yes I think they are trying to clear out all of the physical stock. I would doubt the next version will have any print items because WOTC wants to turn it into a video game
All I know is that my FLGS had 30-60% discounts on nearly every D&D product from the past two years as part of their holiday sale a couple of weekends back.
Quote from: Orphan81 on December 20, 2023, 06:37:36 PM
D&D sales are currently the worse they've ever been. Granted, it's still the biggest seller in the industry, and that has to be kept in mind... But sales of books are at the lowest they've ever been since 5th edition released.
I believe D&D sales are the worst since 5th edition released, but it's also true that 5th edition has been the most successful edition of D&D ever. Just about every RPG company has to deal with the edition treadmill. Sales are the highest shortly after a new edition is released. After the core books are released, newer books appeal to a smaller and smaller fraction of the player base, because no one wants to play a game that requires twenty books.
This has held just as true of every other major RPG as D&D. After there are dozens of sourcebooks already out, and GMs have a variety of established campaigns, it's impossible for the publisher to make a "must have" book that everyone wants to buy... unless they go to a new edition. There's an in-depth analysis of it here, using data from BookScan.
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/10/09/are-dd-sales-declining/
The big question is how the new edition turns out. Hasbro as a whole seems to be in trouble, but D&D seems to be doing OK as a brand. It may well downturn if the new edition isn't handled well, though.
Quote from: GhostNinja on December 20, 2023, 07:22:40 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on December 20, 2023, 06:37:36 PM
Cause no matter how WotC tries to brand it as "Backwards compatiable" we all know that's gonna be a lie.
Are you saying WOTC would lie to us? How dare you! ;D
To answer the question, Yes I think they are trying to clear out all of the physical stock. I would doubt the next version will have any print items because WOTC wants to turn it into a video game
I expect to see print copies of the new, improved, better than ever 3 Core Rulebooks. Probably a set of standard covers, and a set of alternate covers. Beyond that, probably just online updates?
Quote from: jhkim on December 20, 2023, 09:25:54 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on December 20, 2023, 06:37:36 PM
D&D sales are currently the worse they've ever been. Granted, it's still the biggest seller in the industry, and that has to be kept in mind... But sales of books are at the lowest they've ever been since 5th edition released.
I believe D&D sales are the worst since 5th edition released, but it's also true that 5th edition has been the most successful edition of D&D ever. Just about every RPG company has to deal with the edition treadmill. Sales are the highest shortly after a new edition is released. After the core books are released, newer books appeal to a smaller and smaller fraction of the player base, because no one wants to play a game that requires twenty books.
This has held just as true of every other major RPG as D&D. After there are dozens of sourcebooks already out, and GMs have a variety of established campaigns, it's impossible for the publisher to make a "must have" book that everyone wants to buy... unless they go to a new edition. There's an in-depth analysis of it here, using data from BookScan.
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/10/09/are-dd-sales-declining/
The big question is how the new edition turns out. Hasbro as a whole seems to be in trouble, but D&D seems to be doing OK as a brand. It may well downturn if the new edition isn't handled well, though.
Jesus fucking Christ Jhkim, are you so autistic that I have to point out when I say "The worst they've ever been" I have to explicitly specify "Of course I mean 5th edition, and not when the company nearly went bankrupt in the TSR days." Like are you actually adding anything to this discussion or just here to point out the obvious we all fucking know and don't need to have reiterated?
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 20, 2023, 07:29:19 PM
All I know is that my FLGS had 30-60% discounts on nearly every D&D product from the past two years as part of their holiday sale a couple of weekends back.
They could discount that shit 100% and it would still be too expensive.
I'm a bit confused on the edition treadmill thing. I'd normally assume that market saturation would drive down sales, as jhkim seems to be suggesting. But Orphan81 makes a good point about the new edition driving sales prospectively, as folks want to get rid of the old edition. Do we believe that their sales are currently under negative or positive pressure overall?
Also, I personally agree with Orphan81 that current firings seem to indicate a bad workforce for producing a solid 5e new edition. (I had assumed it was just 5.5 with negligible changes and an attempt at pushing players and dms to shell out regularly for digital subscription. But I guess with all the firings they could also well be planning a gameplay shift. And it wasn't a great plan to start with.) Since WotC seems to be banking on that, as expressed by jhkim, it seems likely the odds are against them doing well in the future regardless.
Are they doing well as a brand in the short term, though, or at least able to sell themselves that way? I guess they have BG3, and Magic, but with recent firings, and with the rest of their divisions' recent quarters, I'm not so sure. (Though I guess they could maybe pull the edition treadmill card in theory as an attempted explanation to shareholders? I don't know, kind of weird to think about.)
Quote from: Orphan81 on December 20, 2023, 10:01:36 PM
Quote from: jhkim on December 20, 2023, 09:25:54 PM
Quote from: Orphan81 on December 20, 2023, 06:37:36 PM
D&D sales are currently the worse they've ever been. Granted, it's still the biggest seller in the industry, and that has to be kept in mind... But sales of books are at the lowest they've ever been since 5th edition released.
I believe D&D sales are the worst since 5th edition released, but it's also true that 5th edition has been the most successful edition of D&D ever. Just about every RPG company has to deal with the edition treadmill. Sales are the highest shortly after a new edition is released. After the core books are released, newer books appeal to a smaller and smaller fraction of the player base, because no one wants to play a game that requires twenty books.
This has held just as true of every other major RPG as D&D. After there are dozens of sourcebooks already out, and GMs have a variety of established campaigns, it's impossible for the publisher to make a "must have" book that everyone wants to buy... unless they go to a new edition. There's an in-depth analysis of it here, using data from BookScan.
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/10/09/are-dd-sales-declining/
The big question is how the new edition turns out. Hasbro as a whole seems to be in trouble, but D&D seems to be doing OK as a brand. It may well downturn if the new edition isn't handled well, though.
Jesus fucking Christ Jhkim, are you so autistic that I have to point out when I say "The worst they've ever been" I have to explicitly specify "Of course I mean 5th edition, and not when the company nearly went bankrupt in the TSR days." Like are you actually adding anything to this discussion or just here to point out the obvious we all fucking know and don't need to have reiterated?
As an ACTUAL autist I find this offensive, Jhkim isn't autistic, he's just engaging in his usual whataboutism, at this point it's second nature and he doesn't even notice when he does it.
I agree with the "new edition coming" reasoning.
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 04:52:00 PM
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
They will.
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:32:08 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 04:52:00 PM
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
They will.
So you'd potentially say the sheep-like minds of the brand loyalists and wokists will fall for it? Or something?
Or at least enough will that it can counteract edition treadmill effects, the availability of near substitutes, and a potentially more incompetent writing/workforce?
I might be willing to believe that, though I wouldn't exactly call it likely post-OGL and the like.
Actually, just in general I'd be interested to hear your specific reasoning on this topic. More perspective is always nice to have.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 06:54:00 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:32:08 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 04:52:00 PM
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
They will.
So you'd potentially say the sheep-like minds of the brand loyalists and wokists will fall for it? Or something?
Or at least enough will that it can counteract edition treadmill effects, the availability of near substitutes, and a potentially more incompetent writing/workforce?
I might be willing to believe that, though I wouldn't exactly call it likely post-OGL and the like.
Actually, just in general I'd be interested to hear your specific reasoning on this topic. More perspective is always nice to have.
I wonder who are those people they think will need therapy?
I'm on the more critical side and even I say they'll probably will make good money, my PoV is more for how long? Especially if they are as predatory as Microsoft.
I keep seeing sparkletrolls posting alternatives to keep playing 5e WITHOUT giving Hasbro any money.
When stores do this, there is really only one basic, underlying reason. They want to get rid of that stuff. They are discounting it to free up the shelf and inventory space that it is currently occupying. This might be to get rid of a temporary overstock or it may be because they won't be carrying that product any more at all. If the discount is constant and fairly short-lived, it's probably the former. If the discount escalates over time, it's almost certainly the latter. They won't be carrying that any more and they want this stuff out. I doubt if many game stores will just stop carrying D&D entirely since it's easily the most popular game. That would tend to indicate that they are clearing out stock to make room for a new version which we know is coming out. Anyway, I would say that the most likely reason is that they are trying to get rid of their 5e stock before 5.5/6/One D&D or whatever it will be called comes out and no one wants the old stuff any more.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 06:54:00 PM
So you'd potentially say the sheep-like minds of the brand loyalists and wokists will fall for it? Or something?
I would say it's simpler than that. It will sell because it's the latest version of D&D and there is a large segment of the hobby that doesn't play anything else. At worst, it will come in second in sales to Pathfinder 2e.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 06:54:00 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:32:08 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 04:52:00 PM
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
They will.
So you'd potentially say the sheep-like minds of the brand loyalists and wokists will fall for it? Or something?
Or at least enough will that it can counteract edition treadmill effects, the availability of near substitutes, and a potentially more incompetent writing/workforce?
I might be willing to believe that, though I wouldn't exactly call it likely post-OGL and the like.
Actually, just in general I'd be interested to hear your specific reasoning on this topic. More perspective is always nice to have.
Thanks for asking. I think there's a decent chance, that the "50th Anniversary of D&D" 2024 Edition Core Rulebooks might sell pretty well at first; and also just because they will be the hot new thing. New players, and casual players have little appreciation for all of the 50 Year history of the hobby. Cool new books with flashy covers, that will likely be playable for years to come; might stand a chance of having a pretty good opening. But they will Not have the strong staying power, that the Original D&D 5E Core Rulebooks have had.
I doubt the new core rulebooks, will be a commercial flop. Just because we don't want them, that doesn't mean that others won't. But I will be very surprised, if they approach the success of 5.0
Just an opinion, though. Happy to be wrong. Let them flop.
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 10:40:08 PM
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 21, 2023, 06:54:00 PM
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:32:08 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 04:52:00 PM
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
They will.
So you'd potentially say the sheep-like minds of the brand loyalists and wokists will fall for it? Or something?
Or at least enough will that it can counteract edition treadmill effects, the availability of near substitutes, and a potentially more incompetent writing/workforce?
I might be willing to believe that, though I wouldn't exactly call it likely post-OGL and the like.
Actually, just in general I'd be interested to hear your specific reasoning on this topic. More perspective is always nice to have.
Thanks for asking. I think there's a decent chance, that the "50th Anniversary of D&D" 2024 Edition Core Rulebooks might sell pretty well at first; and also just because they will be the hot new thing. New players, and casual players have little appreciation for all of the 50 Year history of the hobby. Cool new books with flashy covers, that will likely be playable for years to come; might stand a chance of having a pretty good opening. But they will Not have the strong staying power, that the Original D&D 5E Core Rulebooks have had.
I doubt the new core rulebooks, will be a commercial flop. Just because we don't want them, that doesn't mean that others won't. But I will be very surprised, if they approach the success of 5.0
Just an opinion, though. Happy to be wrong. Let them flop.
I bet there'll be people who will buy them just because it's the 50th anniversary edition. Even if they hate Wotzi.
So yes, the books will sell.
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:32:08 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 04:52:00 PM
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
They will.
I love how impossibly vague both of these statements are.
They will sell like hotcakes?
They will need therapy sessions?
Both?
What kind of therapy sessions? Addiction treatment because you think it's awesome? Trauma treatment because it's so woke and broken? Grief? Obsession? Full psychotic break?
No details for you, dear reader, as we like to be vague here.
Some of these sales could simply be because much of retail is in the toilet right now. I would not be surprised if a few of these sales are a precursor to the store going out of business, and they are trying to get what they can with a traditional sale before the "fire sale" prices start. For a few stores, it isn't going to matter whether WotC has physical books or not. They can't survive this year to find out.
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 04:52:00 PM
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
1) My guess is they will sell like hotcakes
2) Most people on this forum already need therapy sessions :)
3) If it does sell like hotcakes, some ardent anti-WOTC people will deny it is selling like hotcakes no matter what evidence you present because it's not about facts it's about feelings first, and then spin facts to support those feelings.
This happened recently with an accusation against WOTC regarding a particular art piece they used. A YouTuber with a lot of followers accused it of being AI enhanced. He used an AI-detection software which showed it was 97% chance of AI.
Lots and lots of people ran with it, bashed WOTC for laying people off and switching to AI, etc..
But the artist came forward and very thoroughly refuted the claim. And the guy who made the accusation made repeated apologies saying he's 100% convinced it's not AI, and also that the AI detection software he learned is very often wrong and shouldn't be relied on, and went through in detail how it goes wrong and in particular with that kind of artwork.
But people are still running with the accusation. And if you show them the new videos, they either ignore you or claim it's just a cover up or lying. No amount of evidence will convince them it's not AI, even with the actual artist showing every stage of the artwork and definite proof he didn't use AI, and a very long history of that very same artwork style going back to pre-AI days from him and a very firm reputation concerning that artist. He even showed if you run his stuff from 25 years ago through that AI detection software it claims it's AI too - that software just isn't so good with his particular style.
And yet still people all over are claiming WOTC is using AI and that art piece is proof. Because it's not about facts. It's about their anti-WOTC feelings, and clicks. Then, you use whatever facts you can spin to your feelings-position and ignore or warp those that don't fit the narrative you're pushing.
So yeah, if the facts don't line up with someone's ardent prediction 5.5e will fail, they will spin it as failure anyway no matter what facts you present to them.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 22, 2023, 07:29:32 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:32:08 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 04:52:00 PM
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
They will.
I love how impossibly vague both of these statements are.
They will sell like hotcakes?
They will need therapy sessions?
Both?
What kind of therapy sessions? Addiction treatment because you think it's awesome? Trauma treatment because it's so woke and broken? Grief? Obsession? Full psychotic break?
No details for you, dear reader, as we like to be vague here.
What kind of therapy sessions?
........As I look back, it's all a blurry mess now. Life was going so well, up until they released those damn books!!! The ads started popping up in my feed. The threads started popping up on all of the RPG forums. Hell, even Pundit was talking about them!!!
I broke out in a sweat, and then I broke out with hives. Fever set in; and i had to soak in a bathtub full of ice cubes, to get my temperature down. I would have reached out to Jerry Springer, but I heard he had passed away. It would have to be Dr. Phil.
Well, that didn't go well. Dr. Phil told me that I needed to face my fears. He told me to go to my nearest FLGS, and stare those newfangled books in the face. When I walked through the front door of the gaming store, I was shaking uncontrollably. 3 danger hairs, then asked me if I was alright. I blurted out something about sensitivity readers, and a scrotum shaman.
Those danger hairs took me by the hand, like I was one of their own; and slowly led me to the new D&D books. I couldn't believe my eyes. So much inclusivity!!! (Except for white people, of course.) So much representation!!! (Except for those pesky cisgender normies.) At long last, I could finally roll a D20 in good conscience.
So now, I sit here staring at these wonderful new books; as they set atop.the porcelain pedestal I crafted, for just such a purpose. Then common sense enters the room, and slaps me square in the face. What the hell?
I imagine you can count the number of active 5e players using this forum on two hands.
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 22, 2023, 02:13:32 PM
I imagine you can count the number of active 5e players using this forum on two hands.
We at least, have a few people who don't hate 5.0 itself. It's the damn company, that has gotten stupid about everything. A textbook case, of how Not to run a company.
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 22, 2023, 02:34:13 PM
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 22, 2023, 02:13:32 PM
I imagine you can count the number of active 5e players using this forum on two hands.
We at least, have a few people who don't hate 5.0 itself. It's the damn company, that has gotten stupid about everything. A textbook case, of how Not to run a company.
A lot of the issue with WOTC is purely market leader with the most scrutiny over everything they do.
Other companies do the same stuff they do and nobody blinks. Paizo withheld a huge amount from their OGL, failed to deliver on their video game and did a mass layoff, abused their employees so much the employees formed a union to fight back, laid off a bunch of guys and made them independent contractors and then treated them like crap and stealth fired them by simply not hiring them for work anymore, and then made a new edition and then another new edition almost immediately after that prior one, and nobody gives them shit for it. And then their president has the gall to personally comment on social media about how bad WOTC is every time they make a misstep.
And Paizo is far from the worst of them. They're actually relatively decent, compared to some others.
But WOTC accidentally lets slip through ONE AI image, which they apologized for and immediately cracked down on and published a company wide policy to prevent from ever happening in the future, and everyone freaks out and accuses them of going all-AI. Had Paizo done that, would anyone have even noticed? Have they already done that and nobody noticed? Who knows.
Being the market leader comes with the most criticism. Not the least because it comes with the most clicks, so people monetize their pile-ons.
I don't think it's just this, or at all justified, but I wonder if part of why WotC feels the need to appeal to the Woke mob is fear and its position as market leader? For a long time, cancel culture within a corporate context was solidly left-leaning for organized boycotts and the like, I feel...
Quote from: mcbobbo on December 22, 2023, 07:29:32 AM
Quote from: VisionStorm on December 21, 2023, 06:32:08 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 21, 2023, 04:52:00 PM
If the new 2024 Core Books sell like Hotcakes, some people on this forum will need therapy sessions.
They will.
I love how impossibly vague both of these statements are.
They will sell like hotcakes?
They will need therapy sessions?
Both?
What kind of therapy sessions? Addiction treatment because you think it's awesome? Trauma treatment because it's so woke and broken? Grief? Obsession? Full psychotic break?
No details for you, dear reader, as we like to be vague here.
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/891/187/bb6.jpg)
Thanks! I was waiting to post that meme.
And no, I don't mean literal therapy sessions. It was more like a half kidding joke. Though, many here definitely need therapy.
And these books defnitely WILL sell like hotcakes. If there's one thing on this planet we can ALWAYS count on, is the capacity for consoomers to consoom. Once this totally not 6th edition of D&D hits the shelves, people will be storming stores like imbeciles, tripping over themselves to fill the coffers of a company that hates them and feels entitled to their cash.
And when more astute gamers rightly point out that this game definitely IS a 6th edition, no matter how much WotC tries to redefine reality. These same consoomer idiots will promptly "correct" them by wrongly insisting that it isn't, cuz their corporate master said so in their marketing. Despite the fact that any rewriting of the current edition is
by definition a new edition.
Quote from: KindaMeh on December 22, 2023, 06:16:17 PM
I don't think it's just this, or at all justified, but I wonder if part of why WotC feels the need to appeal to the Woke mob is fear and its position as market leader? For a long time, cancel culture within a corporate context was solidly left-leaning for organized boycotts and the like, I feel...
Hasbro has been loosing money on it's other products (not made by Wotzi), so the ESG money influx was a lifeline they grabed and are unwilling/unable to let go, either because of fear or because enough true believers have infiltrated it.