Quote from: 3catcircus on December 19, 2021, 08:26:37 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 18, 2021, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 18, 2021, 08:09:47 AM
It's a combination of a 24 hr news cycle, a need to be first rather than correct, and an overwhelming need to editorialize instead of present fact. 

We would do well to do two things:

1. Ban MSM from using social media as source in their reporting.  The only good use of it is by independent reporters like Drew Hernandez, Andy Ngo, Sharyl Atkisson, etc

2. Kill MSM found to have purposely lied in their reporting.  Hang a few Jim Acosta and Rachel Maddie types and the rest will straighten up.

I don't think this is thought through. The big question is - who determines what is truth and what is lies? What this means is that the media are killed if the government determines that they have lied -- which largely means that they can only say the government-sanctioned truth.

Oh, I've thought it through.  Only a socialist would think I was referring to the government killing MSM. They're both sides of the same coin.

We need Purge-style action.  Throwing all of CNN's pedo producers on a bonfire along with the Cuomo turds and Alec Baldwin would be a good start.  Topping it with all of the SJWs infecting gaming is a logical next step.

... or instead of hurting people en masse we could foster critical thinking skills in the populace.  Warhammer 40k style dystopia, like all other speculative fiction dystopias, is not an instruction manual.

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 19, 2021, 10:43:07 AM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 19, 2021, 08:26:37 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 18, 2021, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 18, 2021, 08:09:47 AM
It's a combination of a 24 hr news cycle, a need to be first rather than correct, and an overwhelming need to editorialize instead of present fact. 

We would do well to do two things:

1. Ban MSM from using social media as source in their reporting.  The only good use of it is by independent reporters like Drew Hernandez, Andy Ngo, Sharyl Atkisson, etc

2. Kill MSM found to have purposely lied in their reporting.  Hang a few Jim Acosta and Rachel Maddie types and the rest will straighten up.

I don't think this is thought through. The big question is - who determines what is truth and what is lies? What this means is that the media are killed if the government determines that they have lied -- which largely means that they can only say the government-sanctioned truth.

Oh, I've thought it through.  Only a socialist would think I was referring to the government killing MSM. They're both sides of the same coin.

We need Purge-style action.  Throwing all of CNN's pedo producers on a bonfire along with the Cuomo turds and Alec Baldwin would be a good start.  Topping it with all of the SJWs infecting gaming is a logical next step.

... or instead of hurting people en masse we could foster critical thinking skills in the populace.  Warhammer 40k style dystopia, like all other speculative fiction dystopias, is not an instruction manual.

If what's on Twitter, TikTok, YouTube and the nightly network news is any indication, we're so far beyond being able to have people learn critical thinking skills that a complete societal reboot is inevitable.

Quote from: jhkim on December 18, 2021, 05:04:23 PM
More broadly, I agree that lacking a few pages of material isn't that big a deal - one could just patch or homebrew as appropriate. The same thing applies to this case in 5e, though. The few paragraphs removed are easily available on the web if anyone wants them, and even if they weren't easily available, that material can easily be filled in by a GM - far less so than removing demons and assassins.

Keep telling yourself that one.

This isn't hard no matter how many times you try to spin it as equivalent:
They weren't removed they were renamed and then added back in and appeared in multiple resources.

That's not the same thing of actually altering text and removing. I mean i get it based on your leanings you're (apparently) never going to see this is as a bad thing akin to 1984.

Get back to us when WOTC adds back in the material that TSR did and already had there in the Monstrous Manual.

Never judge reality by media's lens alone, be it social media, corporate media, or even indy media. The nature of media is designed for getting attention, thus at its easiest it will strive to be controversial and salacious. That is what critical thinking is for: to pause yourself and take time to think AND feel about what you are taking in. 

Ignore the screaming on the glass screens and enjoy the world around you. Plant the seed of reflection among agitated others to calm them (neither of you are currently on fire or under fire, no?). Nurture this seed with doubt, curiosity, and self-learning motivation. And in time a revelation may grow in their heart and mind, the gift of critical thought! 

Responding to agigation propaganda with your own counter-narrative agitation propaganda is still feeding the goal of agitation. Stop being played and tap into stoicism and reflection. Measure twice, cut once. 

Quote from: Opaopajr on December 19, 2021, 10:19:00 PM
Never judge reality by media's lens alone, be it social media, corporate media, or even indy media. The nature of media is designed for getting attention, thus at its easiest it will strive to be controversial and salacious. That is what critical thinking is for: to pause yourself and take time to think AND feel about what you are taking in. 

Ignore the screaming on the glass screens and enjoy the world around you. Plant the seed of reflection among agitated others to calm them (neither of you are currently on fire or under fire, no?). Nurture this seed with doubt, curiosity, and self-learning motivation. And in time a revelation may grow in their heart and mind, the gift of critical thought! 

Responding to agigation propaganda with your own counter-narrative agitation propaganda is still feeding the goal of agitation. Stop being played and tap into stoicism and reflection. Measure twice, cut once. 

I'll take agitated rebellion over peaceful submission any day.  I'm not fond of the taste of boot-leather, and make no mistake, the woke want you to obey or be destroyed.  But hey, you do you.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 09:06:54 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 18, 2021, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 18, 2021, 08:09:47 AM
It's a combination of a 24 hr news cycle, a need to be first rather than correct, and an overwhelming need to editorialize instead of present fact. 

We would do well to do two things:

1. Ban MSM from using social media as source in their reporting.  The only good use of it is by independent reporters like Drew Hernandez, Andy Ngo, Sharyl Atkisson, etc

2. Kill MSM found to have purposely lied in their reporting.  Hang a few Jim Acosta and Rachel Maddie types and the rest will straighten up.

I don't think this is thought through. The big question is - who determines what is truth and what is lies? What this means is that the media are killed if the government determines that they have lied -- which largely means that they can only say the government-sanctioned truth.

Getting back to gaming...

Quote from: Shasarak on December 17, 2021, 09:34:25 PM
Its funny that, for me, switching from ADnD to 2e was pretty seamless considering that it was backwards compatible.

If the 2e core book did not have Assassins and Demons then you just used the rules from ADnD or from Dragon or from your home brew rules.

Because it was seamless, though, I never saw the point of switching to 2e. Why buy everything over again? This especially when I had a bunch of 1e stuff.

More broadly, I agree that lacking a few pages of material isn't that big a deal - one could just patch or homebrew as appropriate. The same thing applies to this case in 5e, though. The few paragraphs removed are easily available on the web if anyone wants them, and even if they weren't easily available, that material can easily be filled in by a GM - far less so than removing demons and assassins.

The question is not the removal of the information from D&D lore.  It is the removal of the information from every digital copy they can.  Hence the "memory hole" reference in the title of this thread.  So do you support the company removing information after publication from a resource that you have purchased?  And knowing how you like to weasel, I'm not asking if they can do it.  I'm asking if you think they should do it, especially when the content is not illegal or immoral.

I wonder if there will be lawsuits. The digital versions of WotC books are now know to be inferior products that might at any time have content subtracted from them without warning or ability for the customer to retain the original. While I suspect there's a clause letting them perform updates to products, a straight up deletion like this resulting in an objectively inferior book stretches the meaning of "content update" past the breaking point.

Quote from: Zelen on December 19, 2021, 11:48:23 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 09:06:54 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 18, 2021, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 18, 2021, 08:09:47 AM
It's a combination of a 24 hr news cycle, a need to be first rather than correct, and an overwhelming need to editorialize instead of present fact. 

We would do well to do two things:

1. Ban MSM from using social media as source in their reporting.  The only good use of it is by independent reporters like Drew Hernandez, Andy Ngo, Sharyl Atkisson, etc

2. Kill MSM found to have purposely lied in their reporting.  Hang a few Jim Acosta and Rachel Maddie types and the rest will straighten up.

I don't think this is thought through. The big question is - who determines what is truth and what is lies? What this means is that the media are killed if the government determines that they have lied -- which largely means that they can only say the government-sanctioned truth.

Getting back to gaming...

Quote from: Shasarak on December 17, 2021, 09:34:25 PM
Its funny that, for me, switching from ADnD to 2e was pretty seamless considering that it was backwards compatible.

If the 2e core book did not have Assassins and Demons then you just used the rules from ADnD or from Dragon or from your home brew rules.

Because it was seamless, though, I never saw the point of switching to 2e. Why buy everything over again? This especially when I had a bunch of 1e stuff.

More broadly, I agree that lacking a few pages of material isn't that big a deal - one could just patch or homebrew as appropriate. The same thing applies to this case in 5e, though. The few paragraphs removed are easily available on the web if anyone wants them, and even if they weren't easily available, that material can easily be filled in by a GM - far less so than removing demons and assassins.

The question is not the removal of the information from D&D lore.  It is the removal of the information from every digital copy they can.  Hence the "memory hole" reference in the title of this thread.  So do you support the company removing information after publication from a resource that you have purchased?  And knowing how you like to weasel, I'm not asking if they can do it.  I'm asking if you think they should do it, especially when the content is not illegal or immoral.

I wonder if there will be lawsuits. The digital versions of WotC books are now know to be inferior products that might at any time have content subtracted from them without warning or ability for the customer to retain the original. While I suspect there's a clause letting them perform updates to products, a straight up deletion like this resulting in an objectively inferior book stretches the meaning of "content update" past the breaking point.

Do you actually own their electronic products, or do you just pay a subscription for continued access? This is a gneral "you" not a specific question just for (specific) you.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 20, 2021, 12:09:10 AM
Do you actually own their electronic products, or do you just pay a subscription for continued access? This is a gneral "you" not a specific question just for (specific) you.

I'm not familiar with WotC's online offerings, but other digital works I've purchased have been specifically one time purchases. D&D:B might be a special case. The picture gets more complicated if you are looking at specific offerings within another product like Roll20. A book you may purchase for Roll20 compatibility could be updated by WotC...

I suspect in this last case the remedy you'd see in the event of a lawsuit would be Roll20 (et.al) offering to restore earlier versions of the product. In this circumstance it's a no-brainer to restore, but could easily become a nightmare for DTTs to manage if WotC continues, especially if direct censorship is coupled with rules errata.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 09:06:54 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 18, 2021, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on December 17, 2021, 09:34:25 PM
Its funny that, for me, switching from ADnD to 2e was pretty seamless considering that it was backwards compatible.

If the 2e core book did not have Assassins and Demons then you just used the rules from ADnD or from Dragon or from your home brew rules.

Because it was seamless, though, I never saw the point of switching to 2e. Why buy everything over again? This especially when I had a bunch of 1e stuff.

More broadly, I agree that lacking a few pages of material isn't that big a deal - one could just patch or homebrew as appropriate. The same thing applies to this case in 5e, though. The few paragraphs removed are easily available on the web if anyone wants them, and even if they weren't easily available, that material can easily be filled in by a GM - far less so than removing demons and assassins.

The question is not the removal of the information from D&D lore.  It is the removal of the information from every digital copy they can.  Hence the "memory hole" reference in the title of this thread.  So do you support the company removing information after publication from a resource that you have purchased?  And knowing how you like to weasel, I'm not asking if they can do it.  I'm asking if you think they should do it, especially when the content is not illegal or immoral.

No, I don't think they should do it. I dislike bowdlerization, which is what this is - cutting out offensive parts, which is more usually done to books many decades old. I've never liked the practice, and find it very annoying. I feel it's usually a cheap way for publishers to appease modern readers, which doesn't actually change the message of the books - it just papers over some of the more obvious expressions.

That said, in practical terms, this has no effect on my gaming and seems pretty minor in general. I realized I don't even own a copy of Volo's despite having played and DMed 5e for years. My son has a copy that I've borrowed a few times. If I had played 2e, I think the renaming would have had a more direct impact on my gaming in that I'd have to learn the new name mapping when referencing official material (i.e. "They're fighting a demon - OK, now I have to look under 'T'.") -- not to mention having to purchase additional products to get the material cut from the core rules.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 20, 2021, 12:09:10 AM

Quote from: Zelen on December 19, 2021, 11:48:23 PM
I wonder if there will be lawsuits. The digital versions of WotC books are now know to be inferior products that might at any time have content subtracted from them without warning or ability for the customer to retain the original. While I suspect there's a clause letting them perform updates to products, a straight up deletion like this resulting in an objectively inferior book stretches the meaning of "content update" past the breaking point.

Do you actually own their electronic products, or do you just pay a subscription for continued access? This is a gneral "you" not a specific question just for (specific) you.

The DDB terms of sale make it pretty clear that you have no rights and no recourse and can go fuck yourself.

https://www.fandom.com/terms-of-sale

Quote from: kreegan on December 20, 2021, 05:16:22 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 20, 2021, 12:09:10 AM

Quote from: Zelen on December 19, 2021, 11:48:23 PM
I wonder if there will be lawsuits. The digital versions of WotC books are now know to be inferior products that might at any time have content subtracted from them without warning or ability for the customer to retain the original. While I suspect there's a clause letting them perform updates to products, a straight up deletion like this resulting in an objectively inferior book stretches the meaning of "content update" past the breaking point.

Do you actually own their electronic products, or do you just pay a subscription for continued access? This is a gneral "you" not a specific question just for (specific) you.

The DDB terms of sale make it pretty clear that you have no rights and no recourse and can go fuck yourself.

https://www.fandom.com/terms-of-sale

That's about what I figured. It's basically the same as "not really owning" the software in an Apple device. I bet most people don't read any of the user agreement stuff on either.

Quote from: jhkim on December 20, 2021, 10:51:55 AM
If I had played 2e, I think the renaming would have had a more direct impact on my gaming in that I'd have to learn the new name mapping when referencing official material (i.e. "They're fighting a demon - OK, now I have to look under 'T'.") -- not to mention having to purchase additional products to get the material cut from the core rules.

Once again there was not a core monster manual as part of the first four years of AD&D 2E.  This was the period of the Monstrous Compendiums.  The Monstrous Manual came after the binders became clearly a bad idea despite the advantages of being able to release when 60 pages on a theme was ready to ship.

The fact so few made it in the hardcover is is likely more reflective on how many people were actually using the extra planar stuff before Planescape took off and killed TSR by costing more to produce than they charged for it.

Good maybe these 5e original printings will be worth money soon and I can sell them to fill my shelf with OSR books instead. I did get a copy of Curse of Strahd when they announced the changes for that.

Quote from: jhkim on December 20, 2021, 10:51:55 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on December 18, 2021, 09:06:54 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 18, 2021, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: Shasarak on December 17, 2021, 09:34:25 PM
Its funny that, for me, switching from ADnD to 2e was pretty seamless considering that it was backwards compatible.

If the 2e core book did not have Assassins and Demons then you just used the rules from ADnD or from Dragon or from your home brew rules.

Because it was seamless, though, I never saw the point of switching to 2e. Why buy everything over again? This especially when I had a bunch of 1e stuff.

More broadly, I agree that lacking a few pages of material isn't that big a deal - one could just patch or homebrew as appropriate. The same thing applies to this case in 5e, though. The few paragraphs removed are easily available on the web if anyone wants them, and even if they weren't easily available, that material can easily be filled in by a GM - far less so than removing demons and assassins.

The question is not the removal of the information from D&D lore.  It is the removal of the information from every digital copy they can.  Hence the "memory hole" reference in the title of this thread.  So do you support the company removing information after publication from a resource that you have purchased?  And knowing how you like to weasel, I'm not asking if they can do it.  I'm asking if you think they should do it, especially when the content is not illegal or immoral.

No, I don't think they should do it. I dislike bowdlerization, which is what this is - cutting out offensive parts, which is more usually done to books many decades old. I've never liked the practice, and find it very annoying. I feel it's usually a cheap way for publishers to appease modern readers, which doesn't actually change the message of the books - it just papers over some of the more obvious expressions.

That said, in practical terms, this has no effect on my gaming and seems pretty minor in general. I realized I don't even own a copy of Volo's despite having played and DMed 5e for years. My son has a copy that I've borrowed a few times. If I had played 2e, I think the renaming would have had a more direct impact on my gaming in that I'd have to learn the new name mapping when referencing official material (i.e. "They're fighting a demon - OK, now I have to look under 'T'.") -- not to mention having to purchase additional products to get the material cut from the core rules.

Your stance is that renamed and relocated material is equivalent to excising existing text from various forms is equivalent or worse?

That's really your argument?

Oh and the BS of having to buy additional products? Since you admit to not playing 2nd I assume you played first. In that case the 1st edition monster manual didn't stop working. You know, unlike actually removing text completely like you're trying weasel out of as no big deal.

Again, the concern with WotC D&D brand is like complaining about not getting on the shit-rocket after it's already blasted off. (and you're standing there getting blasted by the Shit Rocket shaking your fist at it instead of getting out the blast radius.

The rocket has left the pad, people. Let it go.

There are plenty of older and better rocket parts laying around to build your own rocket and fly to BETTER BUILT WORLDS(tm)*









*this post is sponsored by Weyland-Yutani Corp