I know don't give money to people who hate hate you though I was looking for to Mordekusn Book of foes and the tales of the yawning portal adventure compilation before Wotc became stupidly woke. After those two books I done with them and sticking to older editions or 5E Kobold Press I know stupidly woke as well though I like Midgard dammit.

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 03:02:38 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2021, 02:14:26 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on December 15, 2021, 12:47:10 PM
Gygax and TSR didn't get rid of magic spells, devils and demons or the occult. They just renamed thing and took out the nudity. As well, it was a legitimate concern by some of the public (heavily abetted by the media, of course) that forced TSR to act.

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
The anti 2e grognards might want to reevaluate their decades long grudge for the ouster of Gary and laying it at the feet of 2nd edition AD&D.

What apparently is going on with WOTC version of this game isn't even in the same universe as what happening with Year Zero with 5e.

Milquetoast 2nd edition changes (oh no renamed demons and devils!) vs fully woke 5e? Not even close.

2nd edition didn't just change names and illustrations. In the 1E Monster Manual, there were 12 entries for demons and 11 entries for devils. In the 2E Monster Manual, there were only 2 entries for Tanar'ri (demons) and 4 entries for Baatezu (devils). They completely cut the succubus along with most other types.

Which were readded under various types through various sources like Planescape and various other monster compendiums annuals etc.

Got anything else?

Yes. But that came later after TSR/WOTC got flack for the changes.

Also note that the demons, devils, devas and all that were not the same as before in various ways and Planescape put some effort into presenting these beings as not always evil or good. Planescape treats the realms of the gods more like alien planets and the creatures there more like aliens that tend to cleave to some alignment but there are exceptions. Sometimes lots.

The I section of BECMI does a better job really of presenting this and it has a proper cosmic scale to it.

So...
Got anything else? 

Quote from: Melan on December 17, 2021, 05:32:56 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 16, 2021, 03:40:07 PMThis may be complicated by the fact that a lot of the people cheering on these changes have also spent the past few years calling for Mearls' head on a platter. He may figure he's got no option but to stick with WotC.

If you do a Twitter search for "Mike Mearls", you will still find about half the tweets are psychos trying to get him fired.



It has slowed down a little, but a year or two ago, this was going on 24/7, all day every day. Mostly from people with rainbow pony avatars and slogans for tolerance, inclusivity, and understanding.

He seems to have left twitter in 2019.

Quote from: Omega on December 17, 2021, 07:54:22 PM

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 03:02:38 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2021, 02:14:26 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on December 15, 2021, 12:47:10 PM
Gygax and TSR didn't get rid of magic spells, devils and demons or the occult. They just renamed thing and took out the nudity. As well, it was a legitimate concern by some of the public (heavily abetted by the media, of course) that forced TSR to act.

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
The anti 2e grognards might want to reevaluate their decades long grudge for the ouster of Gary and laying it at the feet of 2nd edition AD&D.

What apparently is going on with WOTC version of this game isn't even in the same universe as what happening with Year Zero with 5e.

Milquetoast 2nd edition changes (oh no renamed demons and devils!) vs fully woke 5e? Not even close.

2nd edition didn't just change names and illustrations. In the 1E Monster Manual, there were 12 entries for demons and 11 entries for devils. In the 2E Monster Manual, there were only 2 entries for Tanar'ri (demons) and 4 entries for Baatezu (devils). They completely cut the succubus along with most other types.

Which were readded under various types through various sources like Planescape and various other monster compendiums annuals etc.

Got anything else?

Yes. But that came later after TSR/WOTC got flack for the changes.

Also note that the demons, devils, devas and all that were not the same as before in various ways and Planescape put some effort into presenting these beings as not always evil or good. Planescape treats the realms of the gods more like alien planets and the creatures there more like aliens that tend to cleave to some alignment but there are exceptions. Sometimes lots.

The I section of BECMI does a better job really of presenting this and it has a proper cosmic scale to it.

So...
Got anything else? 

Its funny that, for me, switching from ADnD to 2e was pretty seamless considering that it was backwards compatible.

If the 2e core book did not have Assassins and Demons then you just used the rules from ADnD or from Dragon or from your home brew rules.

Quote from: Shasarak on December 17, 2021, 09:34:25 PM
If the 2e core book did not have Assassins and Demons then you just used the rules from ADnD or from Dragon or from your home brew rules.

Exactly.  2E was a clean up and minor rule revision.  It wasn't a completely different game reusing the same trade name.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2021, 10:45:14 AM
Apparently there's another chuck of lore being removed from 5e by errata and apparently digital documents are being memory-holed. I haven't see an official source though.

Even left-leaning Reddit is concerned.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/rg4jut/writeup_of_all_the_lore_thats_beein_removed_from

Welcome to the future. What a fucking clown show.

In the shithole that is Twitter, these things are simultaneously true:
1. That's not happening.
2. It's happening, but it doesn't matter/isn't important.
3.  It's happening and is important/good, and if you don't like it you're wrong/bad.

If that looks familiar, it's exactly the 3 stages of talking points the MSM had for Bidenflation, in order.

Quote from: DM_Curt on December 18, 2021, 12:47:10 AM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2021, 10:45:14 AM
Apparently there's another chuck of lore being removed from 5e by errata and apparently digital documents are being memory-holed. I haven't see an official source though.

Even left-leaning Reddit is concerned.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/rg4jut/writeup_of_all_the_lore_thats_beein_removed_from

Welcome to the future. What a fucking clown show.

In the shithole that is Twitter, these things are simultaneously true:
1. That's not happening.
2. It's happening, but it doesn't matter/isn't important.
3.  It's happening and is important/good, and if you don't like it you're wrong/bad.

If that looks familiar, it's exactly the 3 stages of talking points the MSM had for Bidenflation, in order.

Bidenflation, COVID pandemic measures, orangemanbad, Russia pee dossier, antifa good, Rittenhouse bad, Nick Sandmann, Hussie Smollett,  and the list goes on.

It's a combination of a 24 hr news cycle, a need to be first rather than correct, and an overwhelming need to editorialize instead of present fact. 

We would do well to do two things:

1. Ban MSM from using social media as source in their reporting.  The only good use of it is by independent reporters like Drew Hernandez, Andy Ngo, Sharyl Atkisson, etc

2. Kill MSM found to have purposely lied in their reporting.  Hang a few Jim Acosta and Rachel Maddie types and the rest will straighten up.

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 18, 2021, 08:09:47 AM
It's a combination of a 24 hr news cycle, a need to be first rather than correct, and an overwhelming need to editorialize instead of present fact. 

We would do well to do two things:

1. Ban MSM from using social media as source in their reporting.  The only good use of it is by independent reporters like Drew Hernandez, Andy Ngo, Sharyl Atkisson, etc

2. Kill MSM found to have purposely lied in their reporting.  Hang a few Jim Acosta and Rachel Maddie types and the rest will straighten up.

I don't think this is thought through. The big question is - who determines what is truth and what is lies? What this means is that the media are killed if the government determines that they have lied -- which largely means that they can only say the government-sanctioned truth.

Getting back to gaming...

Quote from: Shasarak on December 17, 2021, 09:34:25 PM
Its funny that, for me, switching from ADnD to 2e was pretty seamless considering that it was backwards compatible.

If the 2e core book did not have Assassins and Demons then you just used the rules from ADnD or from Dragon or from your home brew rules.

Because it was seamless, though, I never saw the point of switching to 2e. Why buy everything over again? This especially when I had a bunch of 1e stuff.

More broadly, I agree that lacking a few pages of material isn't that big a deal - one could just patch or homebrew as appropriate. The same thing applies to this case in 5e, though. The few paragraphs removed are easily available on the web if anyone wants them, and even if they weren't easily available, that material can easily be filled in by a GM - far less so than removing demons and assassins.

Do you reckon there's any chance they are whitewashing alignment and races in existing volumes; prior to really woking things up, with the release of a Manual of the Planes or Planescape for 5E?  Because obviously, they can't release Dark Sun now.

Quote from: jhkim on December 18, 2021, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 18, 2021, 08:09:47 AM
It's a combination of a 24 hr news cycle, a need to be first rather than correct, and an overwhelming need to editorialize instead of present fact. 

We would do well to do two things:

1. Ban MSM from using social media as source in their reporting.  The only good use of it is by independent reporters like Drew Hernandez, Andy Ngo, Sharyl Atkisson, etc

2. Kill MSM found to have purposely lied in their reporting.  Hang a few Jim Acosta and Rachel Maddie types and the rest will straighten up.

I don't think this is thought through. The big question is - who determines what is truth and what is lies? What this means is that the media are killed if the government determines that they have lied -- which largely means that they can only say the government-sanctioned truth.

Getting back to gaming...

Quote from: Shasarak on December 17, 2021, 09:34:25 PM
Its funny that, for me, switching from ADnD to 2e was pretty seamless considering that it was backwards compatible.

If the 2e core book did not have Assassins and Demons then you just used the rules from ADnD or from Dragon or from your home brew rules.

Because it was seamless, though, I never saw the point of switching to 2e. Why buy everything over again? This especially when I had a bunch of 1e stuff.

More broadly, I agree that lacking a few pages of material isn't that big a deal - one could just patch or homebrew as appropriate. The same thing applies to this case in 5e, though. The few paragraphs removed are easily available on the web if anyone wants them, and even if they weren't easily available, that material can easily be filled in by a GM - far less so than removing demons and assassins.

The question is not the removal of the information from D&D lore.  It is the removal of the information from every digital copy they can.  Hence the "memory hole" reference in the title of this thread.  So do you support the company removing information after publication from a resource that you have purchased?  And knowing how you like to weasel, I'm not asking if they can do it.  I'm asking if you think they should do it, especially when the content is not illegal or immoral.

Why did WOTC choose to release this, right before Christmas?  Why didn't they wait until after the Christmas shopping was over?  You'd think they'd avoid any drama, in mid December?

It's always the right time for a holy crusade.

Quote from: Almost_Useless on December 18, 2021, 10:32:14 PM
It's always the right time for a holy crusade.

Deus vult!

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 18, 2021, 10:07:34 PM
Why did WOTC choose to release this, right before Christmas?  Why didn't they wait until after the Christmas shopping was over?  You'd think they'd avoid any drama, in mid December?

Its WOTC. Failure is the only option.

No matter how well they do. Somehow, some way, they WILL fuck it up.

Quote from: jhkim on December 18, 2021, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 18, 2021, 08:09:47 AM
It's a combination of a 24 hr news cycle, a need to be first rather than correct, and an overwhelming need to editorialize instead of present fact. 

We would do well to do two things:

1. Ban MSM from using social media as source in their reporting.  The only good use of it is by independent reporters like Drew Hernandez, Andy Ngo, Sharyl Atkisson, etc

2. Kill MSM found to have purposely lied in their reporting.  Hang a few Jim Acosta and Rachel Maddie types and the rest will straighten up.

I don't think this is thought through. The big question is - who determines what is truth and what is lies? What this means is that the media are killed if the government determines that they have lied -- which largely means that they can only say the government-sanctioned truth.

Oh, I've thought it through.  Only a socialist would think I was referring to the government killing MSM. They're both sides of the same coin.

We need Purge-style action.  Throwing all of CNN's pedo producers on a bonfire along with the Cuomo turds and Alec Baldwin would be a good start.  Topping it with all of the SJWs infecting gaming is a logical next step.