Quote from: horsesoldier on December 15, 2021, 12:47:10 PM
Gygax and TSR didn't get rid of magic spells, devils and demons or the occult. They just renamed thing and took out the nudity. As well, it was a legitimate concern by some of the public (heavily abetted by the media, of course) that forced TSR to act.

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
The anti 2e grognards might want to reevaluate their decades long grudge for the ouster of Gary and laying it at the feet of 2nd edition AD&D.

What apparently is going on with WOTC version of this game isn't even in the same universe as what happening with Year Zero with 5e.

Milquetoast 2nd edition changes (oh no renamed demons and devils!) vs fully woke 5e? Not even close.

2nd edition didn't just change names and illustrations. In the 1E Monster Manual, there were 12 entries for demons and 11 entries for devils. In the 2E Monster Manual, there were only 2 entries for Tanar'ri (demons) and 4 entries for Baatezu (devils). They completely cut the succubus along with most other types.

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2021, 02:14:26 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on December 15, 2021, 12:47:10 PM
Gygax and TSR didn't get rid of magic spells, devils and demons or the occult. They just renamed thing and took out the nudity. As well, it was a legitimate concern by some of the public (heavily abetted by the media, of course) that forced TSR to act.

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
The anti 2e grognards might want to reevaluate their decades long grudge for the ouster of Gary and laying it at the feet of 2nd edition AD&D.

What apparently is going on with WOTC version of this game isn't even in the same universe as what happening with Year Zero with 5e.

Milquetoast 2nd edition changes (oh no renamed demons and devils!) vs fully woke 5e? Not even close.

2nd edition didn't just change names and illustrations. In the 1E Monster Manual, there were 12 entries for demons and 11 entries for devils. In the 2E Monster Manual, there were only 2 entries for Tanar'ri (demons) and 4 entries for Baatezu (devils). They completely cut the succubus along with most other types.

Which were readded under various types through various sources like Planescape and various other monster compendiums annuals etc.

Got anything else?

Okay well I thought the Satanic Panic was an apt parallel but I see others disagree. That said, the point is academic and arguing about it seems pointless.

I'm sure we all agree what WotC is doing is disgraceful and worthy of ridicule and ire.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 03:50:13 PM
Okay well I thought the Satanic Panic was an apt parallel but I see others disagree. That said, the point is academic and arguing about it seems pointless.

I'm sure we all agree what WotC is doing is disgraceful and worthy of ridicule and ire.

Oh, WOTC is most assuredly worthy of ridicule.  And Hasbro, as well.  They should change the name of the game; to "Dungeons & Little Ponies", now.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 03:50:13 PM
I'm sure we all agree what WotC is doing is disgraceful and worthy of ridicule and ire.

It's astonishing the number of missteps they've made over the past few years. I loved 5E when it first came out, DMed over a hundred games, and defended 5E when others criticized it. But WotC has made so many terrible decisions recently that I would never consider giving them another cent of my money. They've destroyed the whole brand for me.

This "rebrand yourself to death" crap is really going around.

Quote from: S'mon on December 15, 2021, 04:20:14 AM
I thought 2014 5e is a good balance of old and new elements that appeals to a wide variety of gamers. Crawford-5e is not.

I have to agree. I've been pretty tolerant of the more recent 5E offerings (even Tasha's, which I didn't think was bad because of the woke material - there's not that much of it - but because it just didn't have much that was good), but reading the errata PDFs the other night I was flabbergasted at how ridiculous the changes to the lore and fluff were.

I've been waiting to see if WotC was going to try to appeal to a wider audience than just the Twitter/Tumblr crowd, but between Ravenloft, Strixhaven, and now this, the answer is pretty obvious. I'll be sticking to "original" 5E (up to Xanathar) and supplements from companies like FGG or Troll Lord. Not like I need more books anyway; between everything I have for 5E and all the previous editions of D&D/AD&D, I have more than enough material to last the rest of my life.

Quote from: Horace on December 15, 2021, 04:27:39 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 03:50:13 PM
I'm sure we all agree what WotC is doing is disgraceful and worthy of ridicule and ire.

It's astonishing the number of missteps they've made over the past few years. I loved 5E when it first came out, DMed over a hundred games, and defended 5E when others criticized it. But WotC has made so many terrible decisions recently that I would never consider giving them another cent of my money. They've destroyed the whole brand for me.

And delivered it into the hands to the Magic players. You know, the ones that have demonstrated they have money to burn. WotC is hoping they'll decide a D&D book with Magic trappings will be attractive to the card flippers. I don't think that's likely to happen (anecdotally, I know amy Magic players that don't touch RPGs at all).

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 03:02:38 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2021, 02:14:26 PM
2nd edition didn't just change names and illustrations. In the 1E Monster Manual, there were 12 entries for demons and 11 entries for devils. In the 2E Monster Manual, there were only 2 entries for Tanar'ri (demons) and 4 entries for Baatezu (devils). They completely cut the succubus along with most other types.

Which were readded under various types through various sources like Planescape and various other monster compendiums annuals etc.

Being cut out of the core rules is still a major change. If things were reversed and ​the paragraphs cut from Volo's were to re-appear in a later "dark fantasy" supplement from WotC (not that I think it will - just as a hypothetical), then would you say that the current edit didn't show anything? I would say being edited out of the main book is still important, regardless of whether they appear later.

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 15, 2021, 05:12:50 PMWotC is hoping they'll decide a D&D book with Magic trappings will be attractive to the card flippers. I don't think that's likely to happen (anecdotally, I know amy Magic players that don't touch RPGs at all).

Keep in mind, they already released two Magic hardcovers prior to Strixhaven: Ravnica in 2018 and Theros in 2020. And they'll be releasing their second Critical Role hardcover in a few months.

WotC has clearly chosen a new audience for the future of D&D, and it doesn't overlap much with the old one.

This suddenly makes me think of D&D moving into a Fortnite vibe or WoW vibe -- very kiddy and colourful with nothing offensive.

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2021, 05:24:37 PM

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 03:02:38 PM

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2021, 02:14:26 PM
2nd edition didn't just change names and illustrations. In the 1E Monster Manual, there were 12 entries for demons and 11 entries for devils. In the 2E Monster Manual, there were only 2 entries for Tanar'ri (demons) and 4 entries for Baatezu (devils). They completely cut the succubus along with most other types.

Which were readded under various types through various sources like Planescape and various other monster compendiums annuals etc.

Being cut out of the core rules is still a major change. If things were reversed and ​the paragraphs cut from Volo's were to re-appear in a later "dark fantasy" supplement from WotC (not that I think it will - just as a hypothetical), then would you say that the current edit didn't show anything? I would say being edited out of the main book is still important, regardless of whether they appear later.

Not in the same universe as what WOTC is doing right now but thanks for trying.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 10:24:22 AM
I think a lot of this is driven by a "think of the children!" mentality, similar to the Satanic Panic.

However, kids don't have much purchasing power, and Hasbro -- a toy company -- knows this. You market to kids by marketing to their parents.
...

Except that by WotC's own survey's the overwhelming majority of the 5e player base are college age.

Marketing to kids = marketing to the wrong buying demo for 5e.

Doing so will come back to bit them.

Unless of course their college age audience has the emotional maturity of children...

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
The anti 2e grognards might want to reevaluate their decades long grudge for the ouster of Gary and laying it at the feet of 2nd edition AD&D.
...
Milquetoast 2nd edition changes (oh no renamed demons and devils!) vs fully woke 5e? Not even close.

True.

AD&D2e changes were done to do an end-run around the 1980's Karen's.

5e changes are being done for pure ideological reasons by current year Karen's...

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
Okay well I thought the Satanic Panic was an apt parallel but I see others disagree.

The satanic panic was nothing compared to current Cancel Culture.

The RPG industry was not self-cannibalizing, and nobody lost their job due to the satanic panic Karen's screeching.

Woke Cancel Culture literally wants to personally destroy your reputation, and keep you from earning a living making RPG's.

And they have proven their ability to do both.

Quote from: Horace on December 15, 2021, 05:31:55 PM

Quote from: HappyDaze on December 15, 2021, 05:12:50 PMAnd delivered it into the hands to the Magic players. You know, the ones that have demonstrated they have money to burn. WotC is hoping they'll decide a D&D book with Magic trappings will be attractive to the card flippers. I don't think that's likely to happen (anecdotally, I know amy Magic players that don't touch RPGs at all).

Keep in mind, they already released two Magic hardcovers prior to Strixhaven: one in 2018 and one in 2020. And they'll be releasing their second Critical Role hardcover in a few months.
...

Chasing the MTG crowd is throwing good money after bad.

MTG and D&D are two fundamentally different games that deliver "fun" in two fundamentally different ways.

They will never get the MTG - D&D crossover that they want because the overwhelming majority of MTG players are just not interested in RPG's.

Quote from: Horace on December 15, 2021, 05:31:55 PM...
WotC has clearly chosen a new audience for the future of D&D, and it doesn't overlap much with the old one.

Agreed, and we will see the staying power of this new audience after they get everything that they say they want.

Quote from: 1989 on December 15, 2021, 05:48:06 PM
This suddenly makes me think of D&D moving into a Fortnite vibe or WoW vibe -- very kiddy and colourful with nothing offensive.

It reminds me of when WoW started catering to the casual gaming market, alienating its most dedicated fans (hardcore raiders). Subscription numbers fell off a cliff and never recovered. May WotC experience the same decline.

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2021, 02:14:26 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on December 15, 2021, 12:47:10 PM
Gygax and TSR didn't get rid of magic spells, devils and demons or the occult. They just renamed thing and took out the nudity. As well, it was a legitimate concern by some of the public (heavily abetted by the media, of course) that forced TSR to act.

Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
The anti 2e grognards might want to reevaluate their decades long grudge for the ouster of Gary and laying it at the feet of 2nd edition AD&D.

What apparently is going on with WOTC version of this game isn't even in the same universe as what happening with Year Zero with 5e.

Milquetoast 2nd edition changes (oh no renamed demons and devils!) vs fully woke 5e? Not even close.

2nd edition didn't just change names and illustrations. In the 1E Monster Manual, there were 12 entries for demons and 11 entries for devils. In the 2E Monster Manual, there were only 2 entries for Tanar'ri (demons) and 4 entries for Baatezu (devils). They completely cut the succubus along with most other types.

Remember that the first half of the edition we used the binders.

There's an entire Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium... sure they didn't include them all in the later hard back, but nearly everything was added back.