I read about this sort of thing and chuckle because whilst I have an interest in D&D 5e, it's the older versions I still play/like (and they haven't come for them. Yet.) I think 'who is going to buy this stuff? Snowflakes and Rainbow Dragons, replacing Hit Points with Feeling points or ButtHurt points and people sat round a table hugging each other when a Kobold dies.'?

I have a friend who isn't into Tabletop RPGs but has played computer game versions in his time (WoW etc) and he mentioned that his son (16 year old) plays D&D now with a couple of friends. One of these players is boyfriend to the other player. Who used to be a boy (but now is a girl, or gender neutral, or something in between) and lives in Ireland. And they've never met in person.

Needless to say my friend is terribly confused about it all (I'm using forum appropriate language instead of what he described it as). I say, each to their own so long as they are happy but kind of see where the removing bad things from D&D is going and who it's aiming to sell to.

They are moving with the times. Maybe I'm the dinosaur they don't want buying or playing their games. Fair enough, there are other options.

I won't be surprised by D&D 6 where the Combat section has been replaced by 'Peaceful Conflict Resolution Section'.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 14, 2021, 01:43:45 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 14, 2021, 01:31:11 PM
What are you supposed to fight if nobody is doing bad things?

Run an inn with a lovable party of diverse misfits.

Visit remote Gnoll villages to teach them about their culture and rights.

Attend wizardry high-school, where everything seems scary at first, but actually it was all just a wacky misunderstanding.

Help a group of beholders retake their homeland from human colonists, who are not evil just ignorant.

Visit all the cites of the realm and topple statues of Strongheart TM.

Travel the countryside in autumn to seize and reallocate the harvest for the greater good.

At first I was laughing when I read this.  Then the reality sunk in.

If having evil beholders is somehow verboten...we really are left with "help grandma find the missing ingredient to her magical cookies."

We've gone from a game where players might be embarrassed to be seen doing "nerd stuff", to a game where the publishers act ashamed of their own product.

I'm embarrassed on WotC's behalf for what they're doing to D&D.  When they put out 5e's core books, they had a pretty decent product. I don't like a couple things in there, but I liked some things more than their 1e/2e counterparts, so okay, I dig that. But after those books, they got worse.

I was annoyed when they tried shoehorning MtG stuff (Theros, Ravnica and Ebberron) into it, but I understood that they already owned that stuff and was trying to make a buck through (lame, IMO) crossovers.
When they started reprinting old stuff, I was happy to see the old stuff back, but dismayed that instead of just converting it mechanically, they made unnecessary changes that didn't improve the material. It was just performative signaling.
The "legacy content" disclaimer on TSR-era content disgusted me. That's where they lost me. Oriental Adventures was made under the mindset of "Ninjas and Samurai are cool right now. How cool would it be to have those in D&D?" And we're slapped with a "That's Racist!" sticker on it?  That was a big, stupid, misguided Fuck You, so Fuck Them right back.

I was glad to see what looked like new adventures published by WotC, and maybe they hadn't gotten rid of everyone with a mote of talent. But they've had a lot of mis-steps. Some by accident, some on purpose. If they continue on this path, at this rate, they're going into a dead end of shitty, vapid product. The Twitter Mob they're chasing are not going to stick with the product long-term.

I think D&D is currently at a high tide of its' popularity, and low tide is coming.  When that happens, hopefully WotC will sell it to someone who cares, rather than just shut it down and guard the IP rights.

I guess the point is to remove anything perceived as offensive, so they don't have to put that little disclaimer on the 5e PDF's when they become available in drive thru, thereby creating a demarcation line for D&D material between the before-times and the enlightenment?

They lost me after the 5e core so I don't care, but I feel bad for any 5e lovers, watching their favorite edition get the '2e treatment'.

The next edition should prove to be a hilarious read.  I should expect they will throw up their hands and just remove combat all-together to avoid any prickly social issues being broached about killing stuff that didn't deserve it, as everything is special in its own way now.

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 14, 2021, 11:45:27 PM
There's some hand wringing going on, over on RPGCRT.net

Yeah, the TBP thread is darkly hilarious.

They've already tossed out a guidance to avoid the term 'sacred cow'.

There's definitely a distinct undercurrent in that thread of people looking at each other uncomfortably, because this ham-fisted gutting of the lore is about as subtle as a brick. One poster (Silvercat Moonpaw, for what it's worth) suggested that the beholder lore was excised due to the beholder's blatant paranoid xenophobia somehow being out of step with 'modern' definitions of sanity.

(Whether those modern definitions are actually accurate is, well, a question for another day.)

What's hilarious is that they're blithering on about how Volo isn't a reliable narrator? Wow, you can tell who's a johnny-come-lately to the game, because that's been an issue ever since 2E and 'Volo's Guide to the Dalelands/Cormyr/the North/the local Kobold Burger'.

Maybe the big problem here is the shift of D&D being a game originally made for adult wargamers, now being purged to capture that sweet 10 and up demographic by modern standards.  Can't have anything slightly unseemly as the Twitterati will find it and use it to critique your product.  It's a lot harder these days to sell stuff to kids as it's under a microscope of scrutiny now.

Those who have been playing long enough (even 5e) are now starting to get a taste of you reap what you sow, with a corporation whose main goal is profit by any means.

It sucks not being the target demographic, and many newer players are now getting a taste of why we bang on about the consequences of said actions and the future repercussions in this forum so much.

The whole 'my parents were right after all' seems to fit in nicely here.

Quote from: Thorn Drumheller on December 14, 2021, 05:16:22 PMBut like pundit says, which I agree with, the hard sjdubs won't be happy until D&D is dead. Well, they'll never be happy. They'll find the next fandom they can ruin because of racism.

Hopefully gurps.

I think it's easier than subjecting poor GURPS to the wringer:

New edition comes out, WotC's attention shifts to that, supplying all the woke material (and removing the rest) demanded to appease the most ardent followers, WotC realises how small that market is/was in reality, but has to stay on track as they can't turn back now.
The balanced opinion crowd keeps using 5e and earlier with a boatload of 3rd party to supplement the core.  Some players stay, many move onto other OSR offerings, helping float the smaller publishers.

Everyone is kind of happy?  Maybe?

D&D is dead, long live D&D.

Quote from: DM_Curt on December 15, 2021, 08:02:22 AM
We've gone from a game where players might be embarrassed to be seen doing "nerd stuff", to a game where the publishers act ashamed of their own product.

I'm embarrassed on WotC's behalf for what they're doing to D&D.  When they put out 5e's core books, they had a pretty decent product. I don't like a couple things in there, but I liked some things more than their 1e/2e counterparts, so okay, I dig that. But after those books, they got worse.

I was annoyed when they tried shoehorning MtG stuff (Theros, Ravnica and Ebberron) into it, but I understood that they already owned that stuff and was trying to make a buck through (lame, IMO) crossovers.
When they started reprinting old stuff, I was happy to see the old stuff back, but dismayed that instead of just converting it mechanically, they made unnecessary changes that didn't improve the material. It was just performative signaling.
The "legacy content" disclaimer on TSR-era content disgusted me. That's where they lost me. Oriental Adventures was made under the mindset of "Ninjas and Samurai are cool right now. How cool would it be to have those in D&D?" And we're slapped with a "That's Racist!" sticker on it?  That was a big, stupid, misguided Fuck You, so Fuck Them right back.

I was glad to see what looked like new adventures published by WotC, and maybe they hadn't gotten rid of everyone with a mote of talent. But they've had a lot of mis-steps. Some by accident, some on purpose. If they continue on this path, at this rate, they're going into a dead end of shitty, vapid product. The Twitter Mob they're chasing are not going to stick with the product long-term.

I think D&D is currently at a high tide of its' popularity, and low tide is coming.  When that happens, hopefully WotC will sell it to someone who cares, rather than just shut it down and guard the IP rights.

Even if WotC were to sell it, they'd still hold onto the IP and would demand inclusion of current year nonsense. They'd probably just license it out to Green Ronin or some other pandering game company. And we'd still have Jeremy Crawford. Dude only fails up.

Well I rushed to buy a copy of Amazon. I doubt (hopefully) that the one they are selling has the post errata included in it,

I think a lot of this is driven by a "think of the children!" mentality, similar to the Satanic Panic.

However, kids don't have much purchasing power, and Hasbro -- a toy company -- knows this. You market to kids by marketing to their parents.

So, how about those parents? Are they demanding interesting, thoughtful, and colorful games for their kids? Or are they buying what's popular and trying to avoid pissing off the morality police? The easy, low-risk choice is D&D. D&D is popular because it's popular, and you can't get canceled for going with it.

The irony is that kids instinctively like weird, dark, and controversial stuff. They will tire of the pablum.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 10:24:22 AM
I think a lot of this is driven by a "think of the children!" mentality, similar to the Satanic Panic.

A little but this is just more of the "think of the minorities" phase of this disease. With a dash of "Think of the crazies" for good measure. Hence trying to erase any mentions of madness and all that.

Because we have to take what crazy people say as if it were sane and true.

What some of this is is WOTC's own push for edgyness in 5e now being seen as bad and wrong and it has to go. They pushed demons into oh so much and now they think that will cost them money somehow. But they have ingrained it into so much of 3 and especially 5es lore than thise changes today are likely just the start if they really mean to sanitize the lore.

All that said though. To be fair. It may simply be that they are trying, poorly, to create a more "make of it what you will" presentation. We see this in the newer product and its possible they are planning to retcon 5e into that. This is not necessarily a bad thing. It would open up alot more freedom and self customization which is one of the core tenants of D&D thats gotten a bit lost over the years.

Essentially the soft update into 5.x I predicted they were in the process of doing. But with WOTC not actually explaining what they plan. Which unfortunately suggests they are up to something.

We'll know later. This can in no way be the last tweak.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 10:24:22 AM
I think a lot of this is driven by a "think of the children!" mentality, similar to the Satanic Panic.

However, kids don't have much purchasing power, and Hasbro -- a toy company -- knows this. You market to kids by marketing to their parents.

So, how about those parents? Are they demanding interesting, thoughtful, and colorful games for their kids? Or are they buying what's popular and trying to avoid pissing off the morality police? The easy, low-risk choice is D&D. D&D is popular because it's popular, and you can't get canceled for going with it.

The irony is that kids instinctively like weird, dark, and controversial stuff. They will tire of the pablum.

Eh, not really. Gygax and TSR didn't get rid of magic spells, devils and demons or the occult. They just renamed thing and took out the nudity. As well, it was a legitimate concern by some of the public (heavily abetted by the media, of course) that forced TSR to act. What public concerns are there over Drow and Orcs being problematic? This is a case of ideological bedfellows using ultra woke pablum as an excuse to subvert a game.

The anti 2e grognards might want to reevaluate their decades long grudge for the ouster of Gary and laying it at the feet of 2nd edition AD&D.

What apparently is going on with WOTC version of this game isn't even in the same universe as what happening with Year Zero with 5e.

Milquetoast 2nd edition changes (oh no renamed demons and devils!) vs fully woke 5e? Not even close.

Quote from: rocksfalleverybodydies on December 15, 2021, 08:46:34 AM
Maybe the big problem here is the shift of D&D being a game originally made for adult wargamers, now being purged to capture that sweet 10 and up demographic by modern standards.  Can't have anything slightly unseemly as the Twitterati will find it and use it to critique your product.  It's a lot harder these days to sell stuff to kids as it's under a microscope of scrutiny now.

Those who have been playing long enough (even 5e) are now starting to get a taste of you reap what you sow, with a corporation whose main goal is profit by any means.

It sucks not being the target demographic, and many newer players are now getting a taste of why we bang on about the consequences of said actions and the future repercussions in this forum so much.

The whole 'my parents were right after all' seems to fit in nicely here.

Back in ye oldey tymes, those 10 year olds (i.e. a younger me) were more responsible and adult than today's adults are.  It's not about age of the audience. It's about how quickly they can wokify so that self-entitled asshole employees can feel better about their worthless $100k intersectional racial equity degrees before they start tanking Hasbro's profit margin.

Because, let's face it - WotC's current crop of writers and artists don't appear to have gotten English Literature or Art degrees based upon talent or merit.  *Nothing* that has been produced for 5e has been in any way inspiring for anyone who wants to play D&D again if they've played previous editions.  The writing and art are lackluster. The content is sub-par.  Even the layout and editing of the products kinda sucks.