There's no cavalry coming from inside WotC or Hasbro. Anyone with the guts to do anything would have already done it.

Well, for those who like the origins of 5th Edition; there is a plethora of hardbacks available, on the used market.  None of that will disappear.  It will outlast us all.  And it's the same with Pathfinder 1st Edition.  Lots of stuff exists in print, if that's what you like.

Or, you can support the creativity of others who would appreciate your business.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 08:41:05 PM
Go to a toy store. They all have starter box sets, pre-painted minis, and even a few books. Visit the official D&D site and look around. It's cartooney and looks like fucking Disney. And yes, you're right, college-aged people are still pretty much kids. Hasbro is aiming for a cradle to grave product line. They don't care about lore. They care about having customers for life.

TSR wanted customers for life too.

I remember the red box B/X in toys R us when I was young.

The Big difference today being that TSR didn't think that their customer base needed to be protected from inherently evil orcs...

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 08:41:05 PM
Spin it however you like. It was capitulation then and it's capitulation now. The fact is that in both cases a vocal minority took to the media and a company changed its product. It's obviously more egregious in the current case, but unless someone here has a seat on the board of WotC or Hasbro we don't know the real reasons. Are they pandering to wokeism or are they the high priests of it?

You might make the argument for AD&D2e "capitulating".

I would say that it is more of a case of outsmarting the neurotic moms...

But either way: WotC is capitulating to nothing in the way that they are changing D&D 5e.

The people currently in charge of D&D want to do this. They want to change the game. One look on their social media and it is readily apparent what side that they are on. By choice.

i.e. They willingly gave work to Jessica Price.

They actively want to be the High Priests of Woke D&D.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 08:41:05 PM
Jobs? People went to prison because of the Satanic Panic. It was much bigger than the D&D just like wokeism is much bigger than RPGs.

For the RPG industry the SP was a nothing burger. (sales went up.) Only TSR really had to deal with anything. And even the assholes kept their jobs.

Critical Theory Woke ideology is worse for the RPG industry. We are seeing it lay waste to companies and and turn beloved IP to shit in real time. Assholes also lost their jobs.

Critical Theory Woke ideology is also worse culturally than the SP. Cities have been put to the torch in unchecked riots, and many people have been killed in the ensuing madness.

People have also faced financially ruinous lawsuits, and criminal prosecution for this BS.

The open embrace of Marxist ideology has been much worse for society than a handful of pseudo-Christian grifters and neurotic moms that were given a mainstream media bullhorn.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 16, 2021, 03:40:07 PMThis may be complicated by the fact that a lot of the people cheering on these changes have also spent the past few years calling for Mearls' head on a platter. He may figure he's got no option but to stick with WotC.

If you do a Twitter search for "Mike Mearls", you will still find about half the tweets are psychos trying to get him fired.



It has slowed down a little, but a year or two ago, this was going on 24/7, all day every day. Mostly from people with rainbow pony avatars and slogans for tolerance, inclusivity, and understanding.

Going over the changes, the removal of minor things like "madness", "hive minds" or "humanoid rabble" shows that sanitisation has accelerated towards an endpoint. If these things hurt you, you are essentially non-functional in normal society, or society itself has turned into a collective of eloi-like flower children. Of course, such a society shall always have its morlocks, too.

In any event, this kind of feels like something you can't keep up without just shattering your game into pieces.

I'm glad I ditched 5e years ago.  Old School Essentials is our go-to game now, though we give other rules sets a spin now and then.

If Gavin Norman of OSE becomes ultra-woke and lets it infest his products, then I'll ditch OSE as well.

Maybe Pundit or Venger need to make their own B/X clone? 

I still can't get over how they're de-evil-fying (fucked if I can find an actual word for this) beholders and illithids.

If you want a nonevil beholder-critter in your campaign, use a spectator for crissake. They're lawful neutral, sane and reasonable.

If you want a nonevil critter from beyond reality in your campaign, use a flumph (yeah, now I feel dirty... but not as dirty as I would if I adhered to WotC's crap).

Quote from: Melan on December 17, 2021, 05:59:02 AM
Going over the changes, the removal of minor things like "madness", "hive minds" or "humanoid rabble" shows that sanitisation has accelerated towards an endpoint. If these things hurt you, you are essentially non-functional in normal society, or society itself has turned into a collective of eloi-like flower children. Of course, such a society shall always have its morlocks, too.

In any event, this kind of feels like something you can't keep up without just shattering your game into pieces.

It's a symptom of a larger collective mental illness amongst western nations.  Part of me says it's directed due to wumao-style CHICOM psyops.  Part of me thinks it's because we've raised two generations of bubble-wrapped participation trophy kids.  And the last part of me desires a Purge,-style elimination of the wokearati...

Quote from: Jaeger on December 16, 2021, 11:49:50 PM
...
The open embrace of Marxist ideology has been much worse for society than a handful of pseudo-Christian grifters and neurotic moms that were given a mainstream media bullhorn.

I don't disagree with you on the important bits. (We could squabble over the details, but where would that get us?) The clear threat today is woke ideology.

What are we going to do about it?

Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 17, 2021, 07:09:18 AM
I still can't get over how they're de-evil-fying (fucked if I can find an actual word for this) beholders and illithids.

If you want a nonevil beholder-critter in your campaign, use a spectator for crissake. They're lawful neutral, sane and reasonable.

If you want a nonevil critter from beyond reality in your campaign, use a flumph (yeah, now I feel dirty... but not as dirty as I would if I adhered to WotC's crap).

There's a city where humans, orcs, gnolls, and beholders have long lived in peace and harmony. The humans are merchants and crafters, the orcs are guards and workers, the gnolls are farmers and tinkers, and the beholders fill the educated and priestly classes. The city is run by an elected counsel with seats guaranteed to each people, and a rotating cast of benevolent mayors. It's not perfect, but it works. Well, there was that one time a human cobbler sued a beholder for making unwanted advances on his gnoll wife. But these things blow over and eventually just become the subject of gossip at the local taverns, which are open to all.

Enter the party who soon discover a crack in the veneer. At first it appears to be nothing. But soon their investigation leads them under the great city, and what they find shocks them to the core. Great evil is afoot. But before the party can solve the mystery, the orcs turn and begin to butcher all. Blood and gore fill the streets. The gnolls hearing the primal call of their kind gleefully join the chaos. The humans in a panic ally with the beholders, but alas the paranoid abominations quickly betray them. The only hope is for the party to rally the humans and drive the orcs from the city, subjugate the gnolls, and exterminate the beholders.

How long until they just start chopping whole sections out of AD&D books on their online bookstore.

Buy your PDFs now, folks, and learn how to use Lulu.  I recommend flooding eBay with - and I want to emphasize this - clearly labeled - reprints of classic 1e books.  Sell them for the cost of printing + shipping, and just go to town.  Keep uncensored D&D alive and scupper the plans of the Newspeakers.

Quote from: thedungeondelver on December 17, 2021, 11:49:53 AM
How long until they just start chopping whole sections out of AD&D books on their online bookstore.

Buy your PDFs now, folks, and learn how to use Lulu.  I recommend flooding eBay with - and I want to emphasize this - clearly labeled - reprints of classic 1e books.  Sell them for the cost of printing + shipping, and just go to town.  Keep uncensored D&D alive and scupper the plans of the Newspeakers.

Hell no! Don't give WotC another cent! If you do, you're part of the problem not the solution. Fly the skull and bones if you want to go this route.

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 15, 2021, 02:04:51 PM
...
Because, let's face it - WotC's current crop of writers and artists don't appear to have gotten English Literature or Art degrees based upon talent or merit.  *Nothing* that has been produced for 5e has been in any way inspiring for anyone who wants to play D&D again if they've played previous editions.  The writing and art are lackluster. The content is sub-par.  Even the layout and editing of the products kinda sucks.

This is a big tell.

There are 3rd party '5E compatible' products are better written and put together than the typical 5E release.

IMHO – they are creatively bankrupt. There is a big reason why they are retreading lots of classic TSR material and ruining it.

WotC is incapable of writing an original module that could rise to classic status. Because the people in charge of D&D do not understand Heroism, myth, or how to evoke a sense of accomplishment within the backdrop of the classic battle between good and evil.

Quote from: DocJones on December 15, 2021, 10:04:50 PM
They lore will probably edge closer and closer to something like Blue Rose.

I think that you are largely right. Blue Rose was just ahead of its time and did not have D&D on the cover.

Forgotten realms will gradually be given a "Blue Rose" treatment.

Quote from: Horace on December 16, 2021, 03:49:11 PM
... I think the rot started much earlier than Tasha's, probably around 2017. And Mearls is further tarnished by his controversial "You're all fired" tweet from 2018:

Quote from: Mike MearlsFunny how many of the same "fans" who insist on gatekeeping via rules complexity and lore density also have a problem with women in tabletop gaming.

Hey guys! You're all fired from D&D. Find another game.

Source: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/955153201434525696

People like to pin WotC's decline on Jeremy Crawford, but I don't see Mearls presenting much of a contrast. In fact, they look like ideological bedfellows to me.

In my opinion:

Mearls always came across as a typical 90's gen-x liberal that would virtue signal so that he could be part of the cool-kids club.

I think that you are broadly correct in that Mearls didn't do much during his tenure to fight the rot. But he didn't really accelerate it either. It is notable that the woke changes didn't really accelerate until after he left the D&D dev team.

Reading between the lines – I don't think that he really got along with his dev team, and that Crawford &Co. were glad to see the back of him. (I don't think he was 'woke enough' for them.)

IMHO stuff like this is telling: (a reply to Mearls 'firing' tweet)
https://twitter.com/KasimirUrbanski/status/955435043614322688

Quote from: RPG Pundits Twitter on December 17, 2021, 11:15:08 AM
Also, in the 5e project your staff were so into rules complexity that you had to make a banner with MY quote DARE TO SIMPLIFY. Remember? How I was the most anti rules-complexity guy in the whole 5e project? Does that mean I get to fire @Wizards_DnD?

I believe that Crawford &Co. disagreed with Mearls on the design direction of 5E. And the fact that he was proven right has stuck in their craw. They like the "fire mike mearls" movement as it diminishes him, and allows them to move in and become the prominent developers taking "credit" for the success of 5E.

Mearls did make his own bed with these people, and now he has to sleep in it.

But I believe that the current crew honestly think that they are going to make 5E into the game that they would have made if not-woke-enough-Mearls wasn't in the way.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 17, 2021, 11:15:08 AM
I don't disagree with you on the important bits. (We could squabble over the details, but where would that get us?) The clear threat today is woke ideology.

Agreed. We agree enough on the essential points, it would be self-defeating to let the perfect become the enemy of the good.

Quote from: rytrasmi on December 17, 2021, 11:15:08 AM
What are we going to do about it?

First and foremost – stop giving money to people who hate us.

Then it is a matter of creating or promoting the alternate games, and gatekeeping the SJW's the fuck out of the real RPG hobby.

Nonsense like what WotC is doing now will lead to a steady decline in sales – not that 5e won't continue to do well, it has a lot of momentum behnd it!  But just not in the way it has gone for them in the past few years.

I believe that D&D will get a bump with the 50th Not-Edition of 5E, but then the decline will become more pronounced for the next five years after.

SJW's always double down. It will be the Not-6th edition of D&D made in response to the steady decline when WotC will really jump the shark good and proper.

The system won't matter like in 4e's case. It will all be about the lore and presentation. (The mechanics will also decline a bit as well – even now 5e has less GM tools and procedures for wilderness and dungeons than B/X.) 

That would be the time for a new "pathfinder" style upstart to make their move.

Currently no one in the hobby is really in a position to do that. Baizuo had a prime position in the hobby when WotC went nuts with 4e. But they are now in the process of thoroughly self-destructing.

The trick is the cost of competition.

The Ideology-free  D&D Clone will have to do 3 rule books. And will need to release 4-5 supplements per year to stay relevant in order to pull market share from WotC.

That is a tall order. Also, people really love their first-mover RPG IP. For a lot of people, it will be like pulling teeth for them to switch to the Ideology-free Clone no matter how bad official WotC D&D gets, just because it won't have 'D&D" on the cover.

It will be an interesting battle if it comes to be.

In case anyone is interested Amazon.ca current printing of Volo is from 2016 get them while you still can.

Quote from: Abraxus on December 17, 2021, 05:11:06 PM
In case anyone is interested Amazon.ca current printing of Volo is from 2016 get them while you still can.

DO NOT GIVE MONEY TO PEOPLE WHO HATE YOU!!!

Quote from: Jaeger on December 17, 2021, 03:06:50 PM
The Ideology-free  D&D Clone will have to do 3 rule books. And will need to release 4-5 supplements per year to stay relevant in order to pull market share from WotC.

Kobold Press could do it, I reckon. If WoTC trashes 5e I can see them releasing a Pathfinder-style "Midgard RPG: 5e Lives Thrives!!"