WotC Memory Hole

Godfather Punk · December 16, 2021, 09:53:03 AM

A decade ago there was a saying that "The disadvantage of the Global Village was that you got all the village idiots too.."
Nowadays, with social media you could add "..and they each have a bullhorn."

horsesoldier · December 16, 2021, 11:10:20 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 15, 2021, 02:14:26 PM
Quote from: horsesoldier on December 15, 2021, 12:47:10 PM
Gygax and TSR didn't get rid of magic spells, devils and demons or the occult. They just renamed thing and took out the nudity. As well, it was a legitimate concern by some of the public (heavily abetted by the media, of course) that forced TSR to act.
Quote from: Willmark on December 15, 2021, 12:53:51 PM
The anti 2e grognards might want to reevaluate their decades long grudge for the ouster of Gary and laying it at the feet of 2nd edition AD&D.

What apparently is going on with WOTC version of this game isn't even in the same universe as what happening with Year Zero with 5e.

Milquetoast 2nd edition changes (oh no renamed demons and devils!) vs fully woke 5e? Not even close.

2nd edition didn't just change names and illustrations. In the 1E Monster Manual, there were 12 entries for demons and 11 entries for devils. In the 2E Monster Manual, there were only 2 entries for Tanar'ri (demons) and 4 entries for Baatezu (devils). They completely cut the succubus along with most other types.

These demons and devils were ultimately still added to the game. It was probably heavily influenced by the satanic panic, but they weren't excised or rewritten like we have today. They were real big on monster books in 2nd edition if I recall. Binders and all of that.

horsesoldier · December 16, 2021, 11:13:37 AM

Quote from: Horace on December 15, 2021, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 03:50:13 PM
I'm sure we all agree what WotC is doing is disgraceful and worthy of ridicule and ire.
It's astonishing the number of missteps they've made over the past few years. I loved 5E when it first came out, DMed over a hundred games, and defended 5E when others criticized it. But WotC has made so many terrible decisions recently that I would never consider giving them another cent of my money. They've destroyed the whole brand for me.

Same for me, I did the playtest, signed NDAs, did all of the surveys. I was really looking forward to the vision that Mearls had promised with rules modules. All in the memory hole. My first sign that there was something rotten in Denmark was Jeremy Crawford doing sage advice on twitter, and making bad ruling after bad ruling and making rulings that didn't even need a ruling. I had been a follower of Mearls for some time and he did some great work in 3e.

Armchair Gamer · December 16, 2021, 11:18:44 AM

Quote from: horsesoldier on December 16, 2021, 11:10:20 AM
These demons and devils were ultimately still added to the game. It was probably heavily influenced by the satanic panic, but they weren't excised or rewritten like we have today. They were real big on monster books in 2nd edition if I recall. Binders and all of that.

James Ward posted a column on this at EN World--it was purely a marketing decision designed to defuse the complaints by saying 'see, no demons and devils here!' while sneaking them in the back door for players who wanted them.

horsesoldier · December 16, 2021, 11:58:00 AM

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 16, 2021, 11:18:44 AM
Quote from: horsesoldier on December 16, 2021, 11:10:20 AM
These demons and devils were ultimately still added to the game. It was probably heavily influenced by the satanic panic, but they weren't excised or rewritten like we have today. They were real big on monster books in 2nd edition if I recall. Binders and all of that.

James Ward posted a column on this at EN World--it was purely a marketing decision designed to defuse the complaints by saying 'see, no demons and devils here!' while sneaking them in the back door for players who wanted them.

TSR, being run by people who cared about the game and wanted to grow sales.

jmarso · December 16, 2021, 02:42:48 PM

Quote from: 3catcircus on December 15, 2021, 02:04:51 PM

Back in ye oldey tymes, those 10 year olds (i.e. a younger me) were more responsible and adult than today's adults are.

This is what concerns me most about where society is going, not just in the gaming world, either. The 'dumbing down', pandering to, and lack of maturity of an entire generation of young people is just heartbreaking to watch. The sad thing is that they didn't even choose it for themselves- it was chosen for them and programmed into them, and now it's too late.

HMWHC · December 16, 2021, 02:52:11 PM

Quote from: horsesoldier on December 16, 2021, 11:13:37 AM
Quote from: Horace on December 15, 2021, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 03:50:13 PM
I'm sure we all agree what WotC is doing is disgraceful and worthy of ridicule and ire.
It's astonishing the number of missteps they've made over the past few years. I loved 5E when it first came out, DMed over a hundred games, and defended 5E when others criticized it. But WotC has made so many terrible decisions recently that I would never consider giving them another cent of my money. They've destroyed the whole brand for me.

Same for me, I did the playtest, signed NDAs, did all of the surveys. I was really looking forward to the vision that Mearls had promised with rules modules. All in the memory hole. My first sign that there was something rotten in Denmark was Jeremy Crawford doing sage advice on twitter, and making bad ruling after bad ruling and making rulings that didn't even need a ruling. I had been a follower of Mearls for some time and he did some great work in 3e.

One can always hope Mearls someday releases his own OGL Directors Cut of 5E.

jhkim · December 16, 2021, 03:06:49 PM

Quote from: S'mon on December 16, 2021, 08:39:12 AM
Quote from: Ghostmaker on December 16, 2021, 08:01:43 AM
Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 08:41:05 PM
Jobs? People went to prison because of the Satanic Panic. It was much bigger than the D&D just like wokeism is much bigger than RPGs.
Citation needed.

I'd think this is likely the recovered (false) memory of Satanic child abuse fad of the 80s-90s. Therapists would try to convince people they'd been abused, often by Satanic cults.

Yup. There were a bunch of cases - like day care providers Fran Keller and Dan Keller who were convicted in 1991 of satanic ritual abuse of children and sentenced to 48 years in prison, but were exonerated in 2013. There's a list here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_satanic_ritual_abuse_allegations#United_States

Most though not all of these were from the 1980s Satanic Panic.

Jam The MF · December 16, 2021, 03:36:43 PM

Quote from: HMWHC on December 16, 2021, 02:52:11 PM
Quote from: horsesoldier on December 16, 2021, 11:13:37 AM
Quote from: Horace on December 15, 2021, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on December 15, 2021, 03:50:13 PM
I'm sure we all agree what WotC is doing is disgraceful and worthy of ridicule and ire.
It's astonishing the number of missteps they've made over the past few years. I loved 5E when it first came out, DMed over a hundred games, and defended 5E when others criticized it. But WotC has made so many terrible decisions recently that I would never consider giving them another cent of my money. They've destroyed the whole brand for me.

Same for me, I did the playtest, signed NDAs, did all of the surveys. I was really looking forward to the vision that Mearls had promised with rules modules. All in the memory hole. My first sign that there was something rotten in Denmark was Jeremy Crawford doing sage advice on twitter, and making bad ruling after bad ruling and making rulings that didn't even need a ruling. I had been a follower of Mearls for some time and he did some great work in 3e.

One can always hope Mearls someday releases his own OGL Directors Cut of 5E.

If Mike would have made a clean break, either right before or right after the release of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything; he could have then announced his intention to pursue a new career, releasing his own material and would have gotten a lot of eyeballs on his efforts. But the farther D&D 5E travels down the woke spiral, the less of a clean break Mike will be able to make from WOTC. The baggage will follow him. The wokification of D&D, will be his fault too.

Armchair Gamer · December 16, 2021, 03:40:07 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 16, 2021, 03:36:43 PM
If Mike would have made a clean break, either right before or right after the release of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything; he could have then announced his intention to pursue a new career, releasing his own material and would have gotten a lot of eyeballs on his efforts. But the farther D&D 5E travels down the woke spiral, the less of a clean break Mike will be able to make from WOTC. The baggage will follow him. The wokification of D&D, will be his fault too.

This may be complicated by the fact that a lot of the people cheering on these changes have also spent the past few years calling for Mearls' head on a platter. He may figure he's got no option but to stick with WotC.

Horace · December 16, 2021, 03:49:11 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 16, 2021, 03:36:43 PM
Quote from: HMWHC on December 16, 2021, 02:52:11 PM
One can always hope Mearls someday releases his own OGL Directors Cut of 5E.
If Mike would have made a clean break, either right before or right after the release of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything; he could have then announced his intention to pursue a new career, releasing his own material and would have gotten a lot of eyeballs on his efforts. But the farther D&D 5E travels down the woke spiral, the less of a clean break Mike will be able to make from WOTC. The baggage will follow him. The wokification of D&D, will be his fault too.

Yep. Although I think the rot started much earlier than Tasha's, probably around 2017. And Mearls is further tarnished by his controversial "You're all fired" tweet from 2018:

Quote from: Mike MearlsFunny how many of the same "fans" who insist on gatekeeping via rules complexity and lore density also have a problem with women in tabletop gaming.

Hey guys! You're all fired from D&D. Find another game.

Source: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/955153201434525696

People like to pin WotC's decline on Jeremy Crawford, but I don't see Mearls presenting much of a contrast. In fact, they look like ideological bedfellows to me.

Jam The MF · December 16, 2021, 05:53:04 PM

Quote from: Horace on December 16, 2021, 03:49:11 PM
Quote from: Jam The MF on December 16, 2021, 03:36:43 PM
Quote from: HMWHC on December 16, 2021, 02:52:11 PM
One can always hope Mearls someday releases his own OGL Directors Cut of 5E.
If Mike would have made a clean break, either right before or right after the release of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything; he could have then announced his intention to pursue a new career, releasing his own material and would have gotten a lot of eyeballs on his efforts. But the farther D&D 5E travels down the woke spiral, the less of a clean break Mike will be able to make from WOTC. The baggage will follow him. The wokification of D&D, will be his fault too.
Yep. Although I think the rot started much earlier than Tasha's, probably around 2017. And Mearls is further tarnished by his controversial "You're all fired" tweet from 2018:

Quote from: Mike MearlsFunny how many of the same "fans" who insist on gatekeeping via rules complexity and lore density also have a problem with women in tabletop gaming.

Hey guys! You're all fired from D&D. Find another game.

Source: https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/955153201434525696

People like to pin WotC's decline on Jeremy Crawford, but I don't see Mearls presenting much of a contrast. In fact, they look like ideological bedfellows to me.

Crawford and Perkins are definitely, all in. I wonder if behind the scenes, in his own private space; Mike Mearls really thinks this mess is as crazy as flaming monkey balls?

Jam The MF · December 16, 2021, 05:58:25 PM

Mike probably publicly "Fired Us All", thinking it would make him look like one of the cool kids, now. They still didn't let him play any reindeer games.

Almost_Useless · December 16, 2021, 06:29:18 PM

Well, he was trying to fire somebody.

https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/955153201434525696

QuoteFunny how many of the same "fans" who insist on gatekeeping via rules complexity and lore density also have a problem with women in tabletop gaming.

Hey guys! You're all fired from D&D. Find another game.

Hakdov · December 16, 2021, 08:04:53 PM

Quote from: Jam The MF on December 16, 2021, 05:58:25 PM
Mike probably publicly "Fired Us All", thinking it would make him look like one of the cool kids, now. They still didn't let him play any reindeer games.

Don't forget that he was also a major reason we got the shit show that was 4e. Towards the end of 3e, he was giving us bullshit like the nerfed version of the rustmonster because it wasn't fun for players to lose their weapons.