They must be. Look at the denial they are giving:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=215141 (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=215141)
QuoteWotC's WotC's Didier Monin confirms (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14658812#post14658812) for certain that the virtual miniatures on D&D Insider will not be randomized. Thanks to Montgomery for the scoop. There have been many discussions internally on the topic of randomization, and offering the V-minis for the D&D Game Table in randomized boosters is a concept that has gone by the wayside. It was considered, discussed and discarded.
Why are they in trouble, you ask?
The reasoning goes like this:
They even considered, deeply, if they would make VIRTUAL MINIS randomized. The thought alone is so ass backwards, that to seriously consider it, you have to be under BIG pressure to generate income.
They have serious pressure from somewhere, that´s what I gather from this.
As in politics, the most information is hidden in denials.
Virtual CCGs have had some luck with selling randomized virtual booster packs; given WotC's other experience with it, I'm not surprised someone floated it as a possibility, especially if people from the other brands have been brought in for the DI stuff.
I think it shows that the DI isn't solely being developed by people who are considering the game itself, which isn't a good thing, but the fact that they've rejected it is.
Quote from: SettembriniThey even considered, deeply, if they would make VIRTUAL MINIS randomized. The thought alone is so ass backwards, that to seriously consider it, you have to be under BIG pressure to generate income.
To be honest, I'm not sure why the regular minis are randomized. I think they'd sell to a much broader user base (people looking to use them in their games rather than as part of a collectable game) and could encourage bigger armies to keep sales up if people could rely on what they were getting, especially if they kept the monsters that every D&D game needs (e.g., orcs, goblins, skeletons, zombies, etc.) always available, perhaps changing designs to appeal to those who really want to collect. I would probably buy non-randomized miniatures but there is no way I'm buying what they sell now.
Randomized Virtual Miniatures?
Must have rolled that one up on a random gaming product table.
I do think there's been ever increasing evidence of a drive to generate greater revenues.
I am nowhere near drunk enough yet to fully process the above post.
The very idea of a randomized virtual product is silly. When you have an unlimited supply of a product, you don't need randomized sets to artifically inflated demand so you can push production cost per mini down.
I dunno; the statement seems odd to me, like trying to show that they were caving to disgruntled customers when in fact such probably had very little to do with their decision making process.
Quote from: John MorrowI would probably buy non-randomized miniatures but there is no way I'm buying what they sell now.
DItto
Knew I'd be sorry clicking on 'View Post'.
I knew they wouldn't be randomized from the first day they talked about the virtual tabletop, because they said as much. A large collection of EN mouthbreathers saw the words "random" and "virtual minis" in the same time zone and shat themselves, basically running around screaming the company was robbing everyone blind despite the fact it was an utter falsehood.
If you're gonna play Chicken Little, at least catch up to the past two months.
Information wants to be free. So do virtual minis.
!i!
I recall reading a post as to why random miniature packs sold a lot better than non-random sets, but I also recall it came down to "People are, indeed, willing to spend a lot more money to ensure that the odds of acquire all that they want in a set are acceptable; furthermore, this fosters a secondary miniature market for folks to buy, sell and trade to fill in the gaps in their collections. Because of this phenomenon, we shall not produce non-random miniature sets."
Of course, this applies to real--not virtual--miniatures. When it's all digital, it's entirely different, and I'm glad to see that Wizards of the Coast has people with the relevant authority to ensure that policy follows principle.
Quote from: Bradford C. Walker"Because of this phenomenon, we shall not produce non-random miniature sets."
Because they will not produce non-random miniature sets, I'm not going to buy them at all. Instead, I'll stick with using a pawn to be an orc.
Quote from: John MorrowBecause they will not produce non-random miniature sets, I'm not going to buy them at all. Instead, I'll stick with using a pawn to be an orc.
...or you could buy some of the pre-painted REAPER orcs. They are in blister packs and you know exactly what you are getting.
- Ed C.
Quote from: Christmas ApeKnew I'd be sorry clicking on 'View Post'.
I knew they wouldn't be randomized from the first day they talked about the virtual tabletop, because they said as much. A large collection of EN mouthbreathers saw the words "random" and "virtual minis" in the same time zone and shat themselves, basically running around screaming the company was robbing everyone blind despite the fact it was an utter falsehood.
If you're gonna play Chicken Little, at least catch up to the past two months.
So Didier Monin didn't post this...
Quote from: Didier MoninWe are still looking and defining the exact details of how digital miniatures will be available for the game table, and we will provide the relevant information in due time through the dndinsider.com articles.
Getting miniatures for the online game table from randomized boosters is certainly envisioned, even if that may not be the only way to get them.
Emphasis mine...what conclusion would you draw from this?
Quote from: Koltar...or you could buy some of the pre-painted REAPER orcs. They are in blister packs and you know exactly what you are getting.
- Ed C.
They need to push out some more of those. I need more choices and selection! :)
Seriously, I don't buy the randomized packs. AFAIC, those are for the minis wargame, not the RPG. Just not my cup of tea.
I do, however, buy minis in the secondary market. You can get large numbers of commons on eBay for pretty damn cheap.
I don't see how this is a big deal. WotC became huge by selling randomized packs of stuff to geeks. Hell, randomized D&D minis are a big money-maker. Given that MtG Online has been popular and successfully sells randomized virtual cards, WotC would have been stupid not to consider it.
With that said, I'm glad they're not going to.
-O
I´m amazed that so many people even don´t object the "Virtual Minis" Line. Please compare what a full fledged computer game costs!
Quote from: John MorrowBecause they will not produce non-random miniature sets, I'm not going to buy them at all. Instead, I'll stick with using a pawn to be an orc.
You can always buy them second-hand. That way I get my non-random collection. And seriously cheaper than if I would buy boosters. :rolleyes:
Quote from: SettembriniI´m amazed that so many people even don´t object the "Virtual Minis" Line. Please compare what a full fledged computer game costs!
That they exist? No problem. It's just a tool. If I have to buy them? Fuck that.
Don't forget about Magic: the Gathering online. You buy randomized packs of virtual cards to play the game. The costs of packs are on par with packs of actual physical cards. There are a huge number of people playing MtGO who have spent countless dollars on randomized packs of stuff.
I'm not suggesting that the same marketing scheme will work for them with D&D minis, but don't discount the gaming public's willingness to shell out big bucks for randomized virtual stuff.
This reminds me of a thread on big purple - "That they would even consider X is a sign they don't knwo game design, and I won't be buying it!"
:rolleyes: Yawn. You consider EVERYTHING, and drop what is silly or doesn't work.
They got rid of it. Lets move on. Just considering it isn't a sign of the apocalypse, it means they are trying to think in new directions. In thinking outside the box, you sometimes come up with wacky ideas. Eventually, in a successful company, the wacky ideas get tossed. Sometimes something doesn't SEEM wacky, but the end result isn't what you envisioned and it became wacky.
For a large company that pouts out countless products, they've had FAR more hits than misses. Plus, with it being an online computer based delivery system, even if they launched with random for-pay minis, they could easily toss the concept in the future if it was determined it was a failure.
I quite frankly don't know how they are going to do DI virtual gametable. They want to have the system available to those who don't play the game, but also want to be able to sell virtual minis. I think you'll see regular, bland minis, and the big ones and special ones you have to pay for, and they are customizable with weapons/armor, etc. You can put a generic size Colossal Dragon on there, but if you want something cool looking, you've gotta cough up the bucks - or they just put mini-codes in boxes of blisters, and you can access physical purchases online.
I read somewhere that the idea behind randomization also has to do with encouraging trading and collection behavior. The cynical take on that is that it's just a trick to make money, but if you open your eyes a bit wider you can see that the high level strategy is to encourage community behaviors surrounding the game (which in turn, generate high levels of interaction and interest, which in turn boost popularity and fandom, which finally-- make money).
But the obvious thing is: unless there is a way to trade or collect virtual miniatures, there's no point in randomization of them.
Now--if for example, your Gleemax profile page (or something) allowed for a display case that shows your virtual mini collection or there was a trading lounge (like there is for M:tG Online) it might be a good idea. But I suspect that since that isn't any of those things in the works, it just makes sense to do it this way. I mean, the idea of displaying my virtual minis appeals to me, anyhow. I have my for-real minis on display. I love to point out my Ghaele Eladrin to anyone who gives that shelf a passing glance. She's my favorite, and she's a rare.
ANY game, ANY game company--in any size-- would benefit from a strategy involving community behaviors. It's probably a shame that not too many companies know how to work that.
Quote from: HackmastergeneralThis reminds me of a thread on big purple - "That they would even consider X is a sign they don't knwo game design, and I won't be buying it!"
:rolleyes: Yawn. You consider EVERYTHING, and drop what is silly or doesn't work.QuoteActually no you don't. Sure some ideas are tried and rejected but if games design is gonna be effective and not take eternity you focus it!
I agree with everything said here. VIRTUAL minis already suck ass just as much as virtual MtG cards do, but RANDOMIZED, VIRTUAL miniatures, the only fact that the concept was discussed seriously demonstrates where the interest in a fourth edition lies, IMO.
Only a single-minded business retard could have had such an idea.
hey abyssal maw, what set is your ghaele eladrin from? got a pic?
Quote from: AlnagYou can always buy them second-hand. That way I get my non-random collection. And seriously cheaper than if I would buy boosters. :rolleyes:
It would be seriously cheaper if I could just buy the miniatures I want rather than paying some secondary middle-man a mark-up for buying the boosters and then reselling people exactly what they want.
You mean to tell me they had a bad idea and decided not to use it?
(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/ohnoes.jpg)
There are such ideas that are just so wrong you wonder why people would even have to think before dismissing them. Like you know... randomized... virtual... minis. Unless you're a braindead, self-righteous marketing motherfucker who just wants to find a way to make one extra buck and thus French kiss the ass of the suits to get the fucking promotion at the end of the year, of course.
For fuck sake. It makes my brain bleed just thinking about it.
I think people would pay, and it is therefore an Excellent idea.
If people are willing to pay for it, then theres nothing wrong with making money.
Just be happy they didn't go along with that idea.
Quote from: GoOrangeDon't forget about Magic: the Gathering online. [snip]
In fact, I forgot about it. Thanks for that pointer to what people DO fall for.
Quote from: John MorrowIt would be seriously cheaper if I could just buy the miniatures I want rather than paying some secondary middle-man a mark-up for buying the boosters and then reselling people exactly what they want.
In reality, though, it's the opposite. Common and uncommon minis get traded around or just disposed of as side deals in trades from the bigtime collectors. Or they get sold off in lots for around .17 ea. I was lucky (is that the word?) enough to have two guys in my group that were buying miniatures by the case, splitting them up and sorting them for collections. The rares are indeed expensive and marked up.. but they are also rare. You could amass a collection far more cheaply than with metal. I would often receive little baggies full of castoff commons and uncommons after every caseload from the two collectors. "Here's some kobolds..and I think I threw a fire elemental in there.." was pretty common. They would just toss them to me as a favor.
I definitely have issues with the plastic minis compared to the metal I used to really spend a lot of time and money on, but pricing isn't one of them.
FWIW, My beloved Ghaele Eladrin was from Angelfire. I touched her up a bit, but here is what she looked like out of the box:
(http://www.wizards.com/dnd/minigen/minis/Af/19.jpg)
Do a search on Ebay for D&D Miniatures and you will often find large lots selling really cheaply. Like--entire squadrons of 4 archers or 6 living statues or whatever going for like $2 or so. That's for the group, not individual.
Quote from: Abyssal MawIn reality, though, it's the opposite. Common and uncommon minis get traded around or just disposed of as side deals in trades from the bigtime collectors. Or they get sold off in lots for around .17 ea.
OK. Thanks for the info. I guess maybe I should take a look at eBay, then.
Yeah, the collectors and big traders often just give the common figures away. At Dragonmeet a few weeks ago the organisers had open boxes dotted around the halls where you could grab as many as you liked. As soon as one emptied they filled it up again. I ended up walking away with over 50 D&D figures (mainly zombies, orcs and drow), and a Star Wars-playing friend bagged a similar number of stormtroopers.
For non-collectors like myself it's a godsend.
Quote from: Abyssal MawYou could amass a collection far more cheaply than with metal. I would often receive little baggies full of castoff commons and uncommons after every caseload from the two collectors. "Here's some kobolds..and I think I threw a fire elemental in there.." was pretty common. They would just toss them to me as a favor.
Man, I need to find this sort of thing. I'd love an army of kobolds for my current campaign...
Well, until then, my Fiery Dragon Counters will have to comp the difference. :)
Quote from: Benoistthe only fact that the concept was discussed seriously demonstrates where the interest in a fourth edition lies, IMO.
Only a single-minded business retard could have had such an idea.
Wait a sec... So the fact that they discussed an idea and
didn't go with it is more important than the decision they
actually went with?
That's just dumb. Pure self-absorbed geek logic. "WotC has practiced wrongthink and therefore no matter what they decide it will suck!"
-O
Quote from: obrynWait a sec... So the fact that they discussed an idea and didn't go with it is more important than the decision they actually went with?
That's just dumb. Pure self-absorbed geek logic. "WotC has practiced wrongthink and therefore no matter what they decide it will suck!"
-O
It's an increasingly common attitude, unfortunately.
cf. 'Aggro'.
Quote from: obrynWait a sec... So the fact that they discussed an idea and didn't go with it is more important than the decision they actually went with?
That's just dumb. Pure self-absorbed geek logic. "WotC has practiced wrongthink and therefore no matter what they decide it will suck!"
-O
I believe that's the power source of the internet.
Quote from: Christmas ApeI believe that's the power source of the internet.
It's certainly the power-source of most RPG message boards. :)
Just the notion that it's not proper for RPG companies to even
think about new business models is mind-boggling.
-O