When was the last time WotC put out genuinely good content for D&D? This just seems like a smokescreen to avoid all the criticism for the lackluster products they've put out the past couple of years by virtue signaling to people who aren't self-aware enough to realize they have a white savior complex.

Quote from: Tasty_Wind on November 11, 2022, 08:09:55 AM
When was the last time WotC put out genuinely good content for D&D? This just seems like a smokescreen to avoid all the criticism for the lackluster products they've put out the past couple of years by virtue signaling to people who aren't self-aware enough to realize they have a white savior complex.

Rime of the Frostmaiden could have been great if not for the disclaimers.

Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?

As somebody who started with Palladium, then saw D&D with THAC0 and hit points in the hundreds as "game mechanics", I never played D&D.

I also have to second Tenbones' question. 

Why does anybody play D&D anymore?   At least switch to a free OSR.   There are lots to choose from. 

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 11, 2022, 08:55:24 AM

Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?

As somebody who started with Palladium, then saw D&D with THAC0 and hit points in the hundreds as "game mechanics", I never played D&D.

I also have to second Tenbones' question. 

Why does anybody play D&D anymore?   At least switch to a free OSR.   There are lots to choose from.

Some people like more modern system design than many OSR products have and, nice as Savage Worlds can be, it is far finickier and mechanically unintuitive (as a friend and I have learned trying to balance a Star Wars: The Old Republic campaign) than a simple d20 resolution engine can be.

Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.

There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.

Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?

I don't anymore....thankfully.

That being the case, I also don't get pissed anymore watching them destroy themselves......

Cue Montgomery Burns evil laugh

It's fun watching them spiral. It's like they're going.....hmmmm the last few products haven't done that well.....I know lets shoot ourselves in the other foot. LOL

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 11, 2022, 09:33:57 AM
Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.

There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.

You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. The game to replace D&D will be as radically different from D&D as D&D was to the skirmish wargames that inspired it.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 11, 2022, 12:19:21 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 11, 2022, 09:33:57 AM
Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.

There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.

You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. *snip*

Yes you can. That's what Pathfinder did for years before 5e came along.

Quote from: Plotinus on November 11, 2022, 07:51:58 AM

Quoteevery reprint is an opportunity to conduct a new inclusion review on previously published content.

Most Orwellian thing I've ever seen, lol. I mean, that's literally Winston's job in the novel: every single time the party releases printed information, rewrite history based on the party's latest whim.

It is astonishing to me that even the most die-hard Wizards sycophant would ever buy a digital book from them again. I mean, don't buy their printed books either. But digital books? You have literally no idea what part of the thing you paid for will be memory-holed with every single reprint!

I agree - I was a big 5e buyer for years, but I aim to avoid making further purchases from WoTC, digital purchases especially.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on November 11, 2022, 12:19:21 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 11, 2022, 09:33:57 AM
Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.

There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.

You won't replace D&D with a lightly better version of D&D. The game to replace D&D will be as radically different from D&D as D&D was to the skirmish wargames that inspired it.

Pathfinder did pretty well for awhile. Even though Paizo squandered their market lead by going even harder into Leftist psychopathy. Conditions are actually shaping up for a repeat.

Quote from: Jaeger on November 10, 2022, 06:26:06 PM
Chris Perkins explains how WotC D&D will mainline Corporate Cancer into every product:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1375-leveling-up-our-creative-process-learnings-from

Quote
Leveling Up Our Creative Process: Learnings From Spelljammer
By Christopher Perkins

This blog is one of the ways in which the D&D Studio discusses topics of interest to those who play and enjoy D&D.
In this blog post, I'll talk about how we in the D&D Studio are changing our review process following the problematic content that appeared in Spelljammer: Adventures in Space.
Harmful Content
If we discover that something we created is harmful or hurtful to fans, we correct it. Then we identify how it happened and how to do better in the future.
The first printing of Spelljammer: Adventures in Space included two pieces of content that fans correctly flagged as offensive. The first is an illustration of a hadozee bard that resembles offensive minstrelsy materials and other racist depictions of Black people. The second is a paragraph about hadozees that reinforces harmful real-world stereotypes. Future reprints will omit both the illustration and the offensive text, neither of which had been reviewed by cultural experts.
Inclusion Reviews
In the weeks since fans flagged the offensive content in Spelljammer, we in the D&D Studio have been building and testing a new inclusion-review process. Inclusion reviews ensure our games are inclusive and welcoming for all players.
Previously, inclusion reviews were done at the discretion of the Product Lead, who identified which pieces of a product needed an outside inclusion review. The studio's new process mandates that every word, illustration, and map must be reviewed by multiple outside cultural consultants prior to publication.
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse, we don't want our marginalized employees to be burdened with the task of reviewing content for cultural competency. That's why we leverage the expertise of outside cultural consultants.
Inclusion reviews now happen several times during a product's development and at least once during each of the following phases:
Text Creation phase
Art Creation phase
Final Product Review phase
Text and art are reviewed separately until the Final Product Review phase, when cultural consultants review the edited text and final art side by side.
Implementation
Now let's peek at how the new inclusion-review process works.
Consultant Reports. After completing their reviews, the cultural consultants submit written reports that are shared with the studio's leadership team. The Product Lead then works with the Art Director and the Managing Editor to develop a plan that addresses the consultants' feedback.
Next Steps. The feedback and the proposed changes are compiled into a single document for review by the consultants and the studio's Executive Producer. Once the changes are approved, the plan is implemented. If the plan requires the creation of new content, that content receives its own inclusion review.
Reprints
The new inclusion-review process applies to not only products in development but also reprints. In other words, every reprint is an opportunity to conduct a new inclusion review on previously published content.
As I write this blog post, Spelljammer: Adventures in Space is about to be reprinted. Applying our new inclusion-review process to the Spelljammer reprint led us to make additional changes, which are captured in our official errata document and reflected on D&D Beyond.
Moving Forward
Just as D&D is a living game that grows and changes as we learn, so too will our inclusion-review process evolve and improve.
We are expanding our pool of cultural consultants so that we have the expertise needed to review the variety of material we publish. We will also continue to listen to D&D fans who call attention to offensive content. We will do our best to make this process as diligent, methodical, and universal as possible, better ensuring that our products bring joy rather than cause pain to our fans.[/size]

In short: WotC D&D will pay for a group of outside cultural consultants, and give them creative veto power on everything that they do.

The ride never ends...

Not just everything that they do; but also everything that they've ever done.  That is much worse.  So much for them offering us any faithful reprints of old material.  They are going to sanitize their entire product offering, both old and new.  The OSR has a golden opportunity, here.

Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?

Exactly!

I call it WotC D&D for a reason.

I believe that there will be a whole lot of D&D still being played, it just won't be WotC "D&D"...

Quote from: Zelen on November 11, 2022, 12:54:18 PM
....
Pathfinder did pretty well for awhile. Even though Paizo squandered their market lead by going even harder into Leftist psychopathy. Conditions are actually shaping up for a repeat.

Pathfinders big mistake was going in the wrong design direction from the start. Baizuo openly admitted that they did not fix any of the underlying math issues with 3.x - they just layered an employees house rules on top of the OGL that doubled down on the featapalooza aspects of 3.x.

Baizuo will cling to life for a while yet because they have a huge subscription base that is heavily invested in the PF game system. Fanboys are loath to leave their favorite IP...

Here's an example of what sensitivity readers say to look out for: https://mythcreants.com/blog/ridding-your-monsters-of-ableism/ These people claim fictional monsters promote ableism without proof. This bodes so well for future products.

Dear lord. And here I have been on the record saying One D&D would likely have a good DMG since Perkins is the lead on it. Like multiple times. Not as many times as our resident crossfit/vegan weirdguy564 has mentioned never playing D&D, in case you didn't know ...but at least two or three times. And now you pricks can throw Perkins fanboi in my face anytime I open my mouth...

There wasn't a single part of that post/update that was good.

And for the WotC employees and other bedwetters undoubtably reading this (you can always tell by the views to replies ratio), you still don't hear yourselves talk. You cannot hear how unbelievably racist it is to attribute fantasy elements and people that only exist in make-believe worlds to real groups of people. Couple that with your narcissistic belief that they need YOU to help them and it is one hell of a suprematist cocktail you're serving up to the world.

Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 11, 2022, 07:16:54 AM

Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?

I've not played D&D in well over a decade as I think it's a big pile o' poo... It's WFRP 1e (or 2e) all the way.

That's because you're liberated. I honestly think that the Wake Up Call happened years ago... but people still relent.

Conversely, I kinda get it - a LOT of people are relatively new to TTRPG's and started in D&D at 3e and later and they got to get it out of their system (no pun intended). And they need a place to go - which is Mos Eisley here. But there are some people around these parts that really make me wonder. It's as if they're *hoping* things will turn around for D&D as a brand.

And it's like the ship has been hit, it's split in half, even the band on deck has drowned, Jack is a popsicle in the water corking about, and they're holding onto the rail praying for the ship to unsink itself.

Then you get these stories about where WotC is taking it... and you find out they're building a submarine.

Quote from: Chris24601 on November 11, 2022, 09:33:57 AM

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 11, 2022, 08:55:24 AM

Quote from: tenbones on November 11, 2022, 06:51:38 AM
Why do any of you play this game?

As somebody who started with Palladium, then saw D&D with THAC0 and hit points in the hundreds as "game mechanics", I never played D&D.

I also have to second Tenbones' question. 

Why does anybody play D&D anymore?   At least switch to a free OSR.   There are lots to choose from.

Some people like more modern system design than many OSR products have and, nice as Savage Worlds can be, it is far finickier and mechanically unintuitive (as a friend and I have learned trying to balance a Star Wars: The Old Republic campaign) than a simple d20 resolution engine can be.

Unfortunately, few outside of other woke disciples have put much effort into a non-5e alternative, instead putting their energies into recreating their own preferred and houseruled TSR-era D&D clone.

There's a niche out there for those willing to seize it for something that delivers on the modern D&D experience without the woke garbage piled on top.

Oh for sure. I do get it. I'm not advocating any particular system. At this point - I'd advocate nearly anything other than D&D. OSR is the obvious choice simply for familiarity.

But as we all know there are thriving Not-D&D systems out there with strong communities dedicated to gaming-as-intended rather than activism-masquerading-as-gaming. We should have more threads on those. And yes I'm guilty of not showcasing elements of Savage Worlds for people that might be otherwise interested and/or don't click with it if they own it.

I'll try to come up with some posts for it (and other systems) soon, because these are good days for us as a Hobby. Let the ship sink, we got islands to explore!