Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 03:19:30 PM
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse,...

It's seldom that you loudly declare that your own employees are retarded.  Bonus points for doing so in such a euphemistic manner, though...

Cognitively diverse?  It's definitely apparent they embrace dummies.

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 04:51:58 PM
No, they aren't.  They are talking about "neuro-atypical" and other special snowflake terms for the massively socially awkward, et al.  Otherwise, it would not have been listed with race, sex, and ethnicity.  Diversity has nothing to do with opinions or ideas for these people.  They don't value them at all.

No, they aren't talking about snowflakes - way to lead with the implicit bias.  But this might be as far that this particular conversation probably should go. 

This said, and I am very familiar with the term ""neuro-atypical" as these are the individuals I work with daily.  And while Cognitive Diversity does not apply to them in this particular business context, industry is better off for making the effort to include them when otherwise qualified - both from an ethical view point, and also for the bottom line.  Don't get me wrong, I have issues with genuine snowflake syndrome. I just don't think this is the right target.  Hell, (hyperole warning) half of Silicon Valley is Aspies.

Stopping here as it is getting off track with RPGs.

Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 06:29:28 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 04:51:58 PM
No, they aren't.  They are talking about "neuro-atypical" and other special snowflake terms for the massively socially awkward, et al.  Otherwise, it would not have been listed with race, sex, and ethnicity.  Diversity has nothing to do with opinions or ideas for these people.  They don't value them at all.

No, they aren't talking about snowflakes - way to lead with the implicit bias.  But this might be as far that this particular conversation probably should go. 

This said, and I am very familiar with the term ""neuro-atypical" as these are the individuals I work with daily.  And while Cognitive Diversity does not apply to them in this particular business context, industry is better off for making the effort to include them when otherwise qualified - both from an ethical view point, and also for the bottom line.  Don't get me wrong, I have issues with genuine snowflake syndrome. I just don't think this is the right target.  Hell, (hyperole warning) half of Silicon Valley is Aspies.

Stopping here as it is getting off track with RPGs.

I would bet good money that the "neuro-atypical" people that WOTC HR are talking about are the kind of self-diagnosed neurotics who want to abuse activism to excuse their poor behavior at the workplace.

Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak.  They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box.  And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.

There's no evidence that there's a reliable, measurable way to determine "thinking approaches."
There's no evidence that such "thinking approaches" are in any way exclusive to individuals.
There's no evidence that pursuing such "thinking approaches" actually leads to better results for organizations on the task of publishing RPG books (or, pretty much any task).

Finally, there's no evidence that WOTC would actually be using valid approaches to do this if such approaches even worked.

It's just blowing smoke up their own asses.

Quote from: Zelen on November 13, 2022, 06:45:41 PM

Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak.  They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box.  And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.

There's no evidence that there's a reliable, measurable way to determine "thinking approaches."
There's no evidence that such "thinking approaches" are in any way exclusive to individuals.
There's no evidence that pursuing such "thinking approaches" actually leads to better results for organizations on the task of publishing RPG books (or, pretty much any task).

Finally, there's no evidence that WOTC would actually be using valid approaches to do this if such approaches even worked.

It's just blowing smoke up their own asses.

Actually there is (happy to give citations if you are inclined). Again, I don't want to necessarily be a supporter of WOTC and their agenda, but from the environment of the business world, the trend to incorporate cognitive diversity is not the boogie man that it is made out to be here.

Regardless of what they mean by those two words, this is where they officially lose me.  Woke Kommissars.

It really shouldn't be any kind of surprise at this point.  They've been steadily moving this way for years.  They've already had complaints about their "sensitivity readers" not being sensitive enough.  I just wrote it off to "well, that's who lives in Seattle".  But maps?  Maps have to go through multiple reviews for being appropriate?

If there's anything you wanted to pick up in the pdf catalog over at DMsGuild.com, get it now.

Quote from: weirdguy564 on November 11, 2022, 08:55:24 AM
Why does anybody play D&D anymore?   At least switch to a free OSR.   There are lots to choose from.

I've been saying that for years but a lot of people still throw money at them, even on this forum! Which makes me scratch my head even more.

Its OSR all the way for me.

Quote from: Zelen on November 13, 2022, 06:45:41 PM

Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM
While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak.  They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box.  And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.

There's no evidence that there's a reliable, measurable way to determine "thinking approaches."
There's no evidence that such "thinking approaches" are in any way exclusive to individuals.
There's no evidence that pursuing such "thinking approaches" actually leads to better results for organizations on the task of publishing RPG books (or, pretty much any task).

Finally, there's no evidence that WOTC would actually be using valid approaches to do this if such approaches even worked.

It's just blowing smoke up their own asses.

It helps to be more specific about "thinking approaches". The auditory/visual/kinesthetic thing? So far as I know not strongly supported.

People with autism-spectrum being different? And high-functioning people, particularly with Asperger's, being *useful* because of it? Yeah, there's evidence.

It sounds like Tyndale is the expert among us here. But even a few minutes of googling & skimming shows things like https://hbr.org/2017/05/neurodiversity-as-a-competitive-advantage, which is 5 years old and points to multiple places where people with serious statistics can point to teams that select for ASD & actually outperform neurotypicals on those tasks. (Rang9ing from software testing to ... (military) intelligence analysis.)

Now, whether those people are useful to WotC? Possibly for analysing game mechanics, if they took that more seriously than they seem to. Possibly for checking lore consistency? If they're serious about creating a VTT, there, for sure.

The HBR article ought to be reputable, but lacks citations. So maybe we wait for Tyndale there. Yes, I'm curious what recent literature you can point to.

-- Software engineer, possibly on the spectrum, likely working around people who are, parent of someone who's likely on the spectrum.

Quote from: Naburimannu on November 14, 2022, 04:11:08 AMPeople with autism-spectrum being different? And high-functioning people, particularly with Asperger's, being *useful* because of it? Yeah, there's evidence.

Yeah, no shit. I'm well aware that Aspergers people are high in mathematical/logical reasoning, but this isn't a unique thinking style to them.

Furthermore, that's not what these activists mean, though. In fact, the people pushing "cognitive diversity" overwhelmingly are making the workplace less diverse and driving out the Aspergers types because they're creating an environment that is much more challenging to socially navigate.

My former job had a presentation just a few months ago on this issue.

One of the key examples the woman presenter gave was about herself. She claimed to be dyslexic, and described the challenge of being dyslexic in her corporate HR email job, and how employers benefited from her "cognitive diversity" even if she takes longer to write an email and makes amateurish spelling errors.

Another example the woman presenter gave was (of course) about herself. She claimed to have a condition which caused her to perceive time differently. According to her, this is an issue that can lead to butting heads because people with this cognitive difference have trouble meeting deadlines. She encouraged managers to offer empathy and compassion, and suggested spreading out the workload among other employees if tasks weren't being completed on time.

This is the type of thing that you're much more likely to see at WOTC, under the banner of "cognitive diversity." The Theater-Kid Theocracy they're building is actively hostile to the kind of mathematical, impersonal Aspergers type that just wants to design the perfect system.

They already appointed a bunch of sensitivity officers, and yet the problematic content keeps appearing. Are hidden racists, mysogynists and gamergaters sabotaging the company from the inside? Curious!

Perhaps they should hire more people from Twitter. I heard some of them could be available.

Quote from: Tyndale on November 13, 2022, 04:37:13 PM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on November 13, 2022, 03:19:30 PM
While the D&D team is racially, ethnically, gender, and cognitively diverse,...
It's seldom that you loudly declare that your own employees are retarded.  Bonus points for doing so in such a euphemistic manner, though...

While it pains me to defend WOTC on this, the term "cognitive diversity" is not talking about intellectual ability, but is just another example of weird corporate-speak.  They are, instead, talking about supporting groups of people to include individuals with different thinking "approaches" (my term) which avoids "group think" - essentially folks that can think outside of the box.  And as one who administers IQ tests for a living, this is good thing.

The problem with this is that such assertions usually aren't true, in my experience.  Granted, I work at a university, but their version of "cognitive and intellectual diversity" encompasses nothing more than a range of leftist perspectives.  And it's often the worst kind of racist essentializing.  We have a "diversity" hire so make sure there's a POC, preferably female and lesbian, on the committee, regardless of their subject matter expertise.  And in fields like gender studies & sexuality, the last thing you'll find is a straight person.  The "cognitive diversity" includes gay men and women, along with trans-genders.  They don't want "out of the box" thinking at all; just their virtue-signaling echo chambers.

We've seen this in gaming, where some random Asian guy becomes the critic of all things offensive in RPG supplements despite having no background in the history or culture of any Asian civilization, or speaking any Asian languages.  My Chinese wife calls such people bananas.  Likewise, the "expertise" of these unneeded cultural consultants hired by gaming companies is usually questionable. Hilariously, the "cultural consultant" for FGG's City of Brass is some woman who was married to a Muslim.  But they seem to have done little to the content, which triggered some reviewers, who find it horrifically offensive.

Quote from: Naburimannu on November 14, 2022, 04:11:08 AM
It helps to be more specific about "thinking approaches". The auditory/visual/kinesthetic thing? So far as I know not strongly supported.

You are spot on.  That model was disproven in the mid 90s and is no longer used as an instructional model. Although, this neuromyth is still alive and kicking in many parts despite the research.  I am not sure of the model that CD uses, but this is thankfully not it.

Here's a quote from that article I mentioned a couple pages back:

QuoteLimited Mobility: Key words to notice include "shambling," "shuffling," "lurching," "lumbering," "limping," "hobbling," and "stumbling." Also watch for body parts that are dragged along as the monster moves.

Congratulations. You've just claimed that zombies are ableist because they shamble.

Look, I get it. Society still struggles with ableism and other -isms. But we address that by educating people, not policing fantasy fiction.

Folklore, myth, and fiction is full of monsters that look like distortions of the human body and mind. That doesn't mean they're intentionally a commentary on disability or are understood as such by audiences. As surveys have shown, there's no correlation between the presence of orcs (who are a distortion of the human form) in a game and bigoted attitudes in players.

Quote from: Zelen on November 14, 2022, 07:50:05 AM

Quote from: Naburimannu on November 14, 2022, 04:11:08 AMPeople with autism-spectrum being different? And high-functioning people, particularly with Asperger's, being *useful* because of it? Yeah, there's evidence.

Yeah, no shit. I'm well aware that Aspergers people are high in mathematical/logical reasoning, but this isn't a unique thinking style to them.

Furthermore, that's not what these activists mean, though. In fact, the people pushing "cognitive diversity" overwhelmingly are making the workplace less diverse and driving out the Aspergers types because they're creating an environment that is much more challenging to socially navigate.

My former job had a presentation just a few months ago on this issue.

One of the key examples the woman presenter gave was about herself. She claimed to be dyslexic, and described the challenge of being dyslexic in her corporate HR email job, and how employers benefited from her "cognitive diversity" even if she takes longer to write an email and makes amateurish spelling errors.

Another example the woman presenter gave was (of course) about herself. She claimed to have a condition which caused her to perceive time differently. According to her, this is an issue that can lead to butting heads because people with this cognitive difference have trouble meeting deadlines. She encouraged managers to offer empathy and compassion, and suggested spreading out the workload among other employees if tasks weren't being completed on time.

This is the type of thing that you're much more likely to see at WOTC, under the banner of "cognitive diversity." The Theater-Kid Theocracy they're building is actively hostile to the kind of mathematical, impersonal Aspergers type that just wants to design the perfect system.

Aspie here, properly diagnosed by a specialist and not by googling shit (Google didn't even exist back then), of all the Aspies I know and myself included this is true, REAL aspies don't thrive in the envoronment the woke cult creates.

Worst if they argue with us, since we do use logic they get exposed as grifters.

As for WotC and their Kultural Kommisars... Good, this is fucking great, let them die, let them crash and burn, this either creates the opening for a new competitor or drives the hobby away from the mainstream, either way a win IMHO.

My two cents for WotC is to egg them on.  When they put out racist comments, encourage them to go more.  Add in more purity spirals of death.  If the Hadoozee are racist, then what about dwarfs not being called little people, dwarf is cultural appropriation for people who are diagnosed with dwarfism.  Why are the trolls stats depict them as being low intelligence, that's racist, why can't trolls have a wide range of intelligence, why can't there be troll wizards leading a village of hobbits in growing cabbage?  Why can't D&D make a world of all male homosexuals who don't have sex and fight off evil others, why does WotC exclude gay lifestyles from their products, where is "my" world?

The best way to help D&D is to douse the entire franchise with fire.  Go into the WotC boards, learn to speak their language and push those fuckers off the plank.  WotC is already using Twitter as their editorial board, lets get them to use the Doe Dude with Horns (oh god that always made me laugh a doe with antlers way to go dude) from Twitter as an editor.  What about some level 3 sex offenders who used to be Magic Judges but the Quarterly unjustly chased those MAPS out of gaming, shouldn't they be welcomed back and do Seattle D&D home office tours for children?

Right now Wizards is crapping out really horribad content before they release the next edition.  All of the purity spiral wankers are going to get their books.  Now is the time to push WotC so far over the edge Hasbro freaks and goes full on damage control to sell off the IP to someone who cares about the game.  Plus with the Great Recession 2.0 the Wreckening coming for us all, its a great time to push woke companies into bankruptcy because they won't be able to get financing.  Blackrock was downgraded from Buy to Hold over its ESG holdings failing to perform.  There is hope through economic ruin to fix a lot of content as crappy as it is to look at it that way.