Looks like more of this nonsense coming down the pike, some of it already known:
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/11/17/what-we-can-learn-from-wotcs-core-book-sensitivity-and-inclusivity-changes/ (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/11/17/what-we-can-learn-from-wotcs-core-book-sensitivity-and-inclusivity-changes/)
What are you talking about, comrade? Gender-inclusive language has always been in D&D. Now please turn in your old copies for burning.
And the milquetoast-ification continues...
Edit: I admit I only skimmed this, but what the hell bounces around this guys mind?
"I personally would remove any mention of slavery."
"Favorite Setting: Dark Sun, then Greyhawk"
So I read the blog post. Someone better back it up because it's making the round in anti-PC circles and the author might yank it for fear of giving ammunition to his 'enemies'.
The current list of banned words/concepts now includes: civilized, civilization, dark, madness, insane, crazy, dim-witted, fat, slave, slavery, savage (both noun AND adjective), primitive, mate (verb), breeding, shun (verb), dark elf, basic gender distinctions, blind (as a metaphor), ki (monk power)...
I don't know which aspect of me is more frustrated with this infantilizing language butchery, my gamer self, my English teacher self, or my freethinker self.
The worst part? There actually is a place for softer, gentler settings and games in this hobby. I've RUN softer gentler games that sidestepped these adult concepts, even for audiences of adults who wanted a break from the nastiness of the real world.
But I categorically reject the idea that it's morally necessary to try and soft-brainwash people by warping the flagship game of the hobby into some schizophrenic Disneyland where
murdering things with swords and fireballs is still the primary method of problem-solving!
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 18, 2023, 03:19:06 PM
... but what the hell bounces around this guys mind?
"I personally would remove any mention of slavery."
"Favorite Setting: Dark Sun, then Greyhawk"
One wonders how his head doesn't rupture from all the sanctimonious cognitive dissonance he forces it to contain.
But maybe there's an explanation:
- Perhaps HIS Dark Sun still contains slavery because HE knows how to handle it properly, not like the intellectual peasants he's trying to protect from the KKK influence of D&D.
- Maybe HIS Dark Sun is more like a sanitized Mad Max meets Captain Planet. HIS bad guys
just pollute and murder. Murder is less traumatic, you know?
"Alright boys, go and have your wicked fun decapitating, impaling, sacrificing and burning, hehehe! Oh, but not raping or enslaving, we're not monsters!"
They seem almost desperate to sink to new censorship lows. All while forcing their own ideological dictates onto their customers' tables.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 18, 2023, 03:35:10 PM
So I read the blog post. Someone better back it up because it's making the round in anti-PC circles and the author might yank it for fear of giving ammunition to his 'enemies'.
The current list of banned words/concepts now includes: civilized, civilization, dark, madness, insane, crazy, dim-witted, fat, slave, slavery, savage (both noun AND adjective), primitive, mate (verb), breeding, shun (verb), dark elf, basic gender distinctions, blind (as a metaphor), ki (monk power)...
I don't know which aspect of me is more frustrated with this infantilizing language butchery, my gamer self, my English teacher self, or my freethinker self.
The worst part? There actually is a place for softer, gentler settings and games in this hobby. I've RUN softer gentler games that sidestepped these adult concepts, even for audiences of adults who wanted a break from the nastiness of the real world.
But I categorically reject the idea that it's morally necessary to try and soft-brainwash people by warping the flagship game of the hobby into some schizophrenic Disneyland where murdering things with swords and fireballs is still the primary method of problem-solving!
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 18, 2023, 03:19:06 PM
... but what the hell bounces around this guys mind?
"I personally would remove any mention of slavery."
"Favorite Setting: Dark Sun, then Greyhawk"
One wonders how his head doesn't rupture from all the sanctimonious cognitive dissonance he forces it to contain.
But maybe there's an explanation:
- Perhaps HIS Dark Sun still contains slavery because HE knows how to handle it properly, not like the intellectual peasants he's trying to protect from the KKK influence of D&D.
- Maybe HIS Dark Sun is more like a sanitized Mad Max meets Captain Planet. HIS bad guys just pollute and murder. Murder is less traumatic, you know?
"Alright boys, go and have your wicked fun decapitating, impaling, sacrificing and burning, hehehe! Oh, but not raping or enslaving, we're not monsters!"
someone already did:
https://archive.is/NZeWL# (https://archive.is/NZeWL#)
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 18, 2023, 08:56:05 PMsomeone already did:
https://archive.is/NZeWL# (https://archive.is/NZeWL#)
That puke's blogpost actually made me angry. The gleeful cheerleading of censoring everything older than 5 minutes ago, for our own good of course, boils my blood.
Quote from: Grognard GM on November 18, 2023, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 18, 2023, 08:56:05 PMsomeone already did:
https://archive.is/NZeWL# (https://archive.is/NZeWL#)
That puke's blogpost actually made me angry. The gleeful cheerleading of censoring everything older than 5 minutes ago, for our own good of course, boils my blood.
Communists need to purge the past and keep the sheep in a perpetual present in which the party is always right. The goal is to bring up a new generation of gamers taught that this drivel is completely normal. The game is erasing the past one brick at a time. We older gamers have to teach the younger generation the old games, lest the history and culture of our hobby be forgotten.
Quote from: Brad on November 18, 2023, 02:47:33 PM
What are you talking about, comrade? Gender-inclusive language has always been in D&D. Now please turn in your old copies for burning.
Shakespeare too. Both simultaneously inclusive and needs burning.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on November 18, 2023, 09:33:23 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on November 18, 2023, 09:12:39 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 18, 2023, 08:56:05 PMsomeone already did:
https://archive.is/NZeWL# (https://archive.is/NZeWL#)
That puke's blogpost actually made me angry. The gleeful cheerleading of censoring everything older than 5 minutes ago, for our own good of course, boils my blood.
Communists need to purge the past and keep the sheep in a perpetual present in which the party is always right. The goal is to bring up a new generation of gamers taught that this drivel is completely normal. The game is erasing the past one brick at a time. We older gamers have to teach the younger generation the old games, lest the history and culture of our hobby be forgotten.
The truly insidious shit is the silent alterations. They see people choosing the earlier editions so as to circumvent the woke, so they make it so the uninformed have no idea that the book they buy is different from how it once was.
"What do you mean the text is different? It's the same edition, even has the same copyright date!"
It's quite a state of affairs where pirated literature is the only way unsubverted versions of books can survive. From cheapskates to archivists.
" 'In the language of Orthanc, help means ruin, and saving means slaying, that is plain.' "
i find the idea that D&D, or any type of art, game, etc needs to be decolonized very troubling. It never seems to make anything better and it feels like it stems from an inability to understand media and art from different times. Also has a great deal in common with various forms of puritanism
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on November 19, 2023, 08:53:14 AM
i find the idea that D&D, or any type of art, game, etc needs to be decolonized very troubling. It never seems to make anything better and it feels like it stems from an inability to understand media and art from different times. Also has a great deal in common with various forms of puritanism
It is much easier to understand the concept once you realize its connection to the worldwide crusade to eliminate Western culture and white people of European origin. Cultural erasure is something that happens over time. Diversity & inclusion are a stepping stone to this process. Diverse means ANYTHING but heterosexual white males. Then we have the erasure of cultural art such as statues & monuments. This destruction is needed to ensure there are no prominent references to people that are to be erased and replaced. White supremecy is a label that has been hijacked by the left that they apply to any white person who does not cheer for their own erasure. Everyone is permitted by the left to celebrate their culture & heritage except white people. Now that these sentiments have been been slow boiling for an entire generation we have more and more people growing up with this indoctrination of hate. Hate crime laws were established to aid in this crusade. Attacks on members of any culture or race can fall under hate crime laws. Attacks on whites generally do not unless the victim is Jewish. We need to take the power out of the leftist control of speech. The term "racist" has been thrown around so much as a general excuse for everything that it has lost a lot of its power. We need to do the same for "white supremesist".
Say what you all will about digital piracy, it makes for an excellent preservation tool.
Beyond that WOTC can do what it likes at this point, better versions of D&D exist well enough outside their realm.
The author of that video's face looks like someone who is a dumb woke idiot. I posted a comment suggesting people google the OSR and play better games and what the Exec from WOTC said about white people leaving the hobby. I am sure my post will disappear.
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on November 19, 2023, 08:53:14 AM
i find the idea that D&D, or any type of art, game, etc needs to be decolonized very troubling. It never seems to make anything better and it feels like it stems from an inability to understand media and art from different times. Also has a great deal in common with various forms of puritanism
Decolonization is the latest* woke idiocy. It's another attempt to tear down existing heirarchies and replace them with their own, terrible heirarchies.
*latest in that it's been getting a lot of talk re current politics.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 19, 2023, 04:21:07 PM
Decolonization is the latest* woke idiocy. It's another attempt to tear down existing hierarchies and replace them with their own, terrible hierarchies.
*latest in that it's been getting a lot of talk re current politics.
Wouldn't be surprised if they take Gary Gygax's name off of the new edition, just to fully erase the past.
I posted a comment on the idiot who posted that blog post's video. Hasn't replied (Yet he replied to everyone else).
Guess the truth hurts.
Quote from: BytomMan on November 18, 2023, 02:38:29 PM
Looks like more of this nonsense coming down the pike, some of it already known:
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/11/17/what-we-can-learn-from-wotcs-core-book-sensitivity-and-inclusivity-changes/ (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/11/17/what-we-can-learn-from-wotcs-core-book-sensitivity-and-inclusivity-changes/)
I am not too bothered by very bland core books for the large scale audience. I want to be able to give them to kids and to include the widest range of possible players. Much easier to add grimdark to taste than to work around it with core
rulebooks.
With setting books (e.g., Spelljammer) this is a much worse idea because these details are part of the point of the setting.
Quote from: Votan on November 20, 2023, 01:15:19 PM
I am not too bothered by very bland core books for the large scale audience. I want to be able to give them to kids and to include the widest range of possible players. Much easier to add grimdark to taste than to work around it with core rulebooks.
Hmm, I guess I can accept that argument to some extent, but them trying to shift the Overton window until ideas like 'madness' and 'civilization' are taboo makes me nervous about what they'll demand next for the (supposed) good of children and child-like adults.
"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."― Mark Twain
(Yes, I appreciate the irony of a vegan posting this quote.)
Quote from: GhostNinja on November 20, 2023, 09:25:03 AM
I posted a comment on the idiot who posted that blog post's video. Hasn't replied (Yet he replied to everyone else).
Guess the truth hurts.
Don't even bother, you'll just make 'your side' look bad, and they only thing that has any chance of reaching ideologues that far gone is lost sales/votes/clicks.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 20, 2023, 01:38:13 PM
Quote from: Votan on November 20, 2023, 01:15:19 PM
I am not too bothered by very bland core books for the large scale audience. I want to be able to give them to kids and to include the widest range of possible players. Much easier to add grimdark to taste than to work around it with core rulebooks.
Hmm, I guess I can accept that argument to some extent, but them trying to shift the Overton window until ideas like 'madness' and 'civilization' are taboo makes me nervous about what they'll demand next for the (supposed) good of children and child-like adults.
"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."
― Mark Twain
(Yes, I appreciate the irony of a vegan posting this quote.)
Yeah, the slippery slope piece is real. This review of the new Planescape is concerning and make me less likely to buy it: https://youtu.be/YCs0qFvwvlY?si=jk6kt0puSBkQrz3C
But I also like that my six year old can flip through my 5E rulebooks with no concern on my part. That's not true of my OSR books or my settings supplements. But I think that there really is a big difference with the core D&D rules. By definition they should be either evocative or pabulum, the middle course makes no sense. I respect the argument that AD&D 1E was evocative and not pabulum, but with a mature line I see the business argument for pabulum.
But having mashed potatoes on the plate doesn't mean that the adults can't have steak. :)
Quote from: Votan on November 20, 2023, 01:15:19 PM
Quote from: BytomMan on November 18, 2023, 02:38:29 PM
Looks like more of this nonsense coming down the pike, some of it already known:
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/11/17/what-we-can-learn-from-wotcs-core-book-sensitivity-and-inclusivity-changes/ (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/11/17/what-we-can-learn-from-wotcs-core-book-sensitivity-and-inclusivity-changes/)
I am not too bothered by very bland core books for the large scale audience. I want to be able to give them to kids and to include the widest range of possible players. Much easier to add grimdark to taste than to work around it with core rulebooks.
With setting books (e.g., Spelljammer) this is a much worse idea because these details are part of the point of the setting.
RPGs aren't Lego, they aren't meant to be primarily marketed to young kids. So we'll have to agree to disagree on bland pap being a good default.
Even if it was meant for kids, kids love fun with a dash of dark, that's why Roald Dahl was so popular. The modern push to sanitize everything meant for children is, in of itself, unhealthy.
PS - How in God's name did you just associate pre-censorship D&D with Grimdark? You be clownin', holmes.
Quote from: Votan on November 20, 2023, 01:55:20 PMBut I also like that my six year old can flip through my 5E rulebooks with no concern on my part.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/106605/Hero-Kids--Fantasy-RPG?affiliate_id=1378544 (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/106605/Hero-Kids--Fantasy-RPG?affiliate_id=1378544) That's what you need to be handing your 6 year old, not championing filing all the edges out of the most popular RPG game.
Quote from: Grognard GM on November 20, 2023, 02:21:14 PM
Quote from: Votan on November 20, 2023, 01:15:19 PM
Quote from: BytomMan on November 18, 2023, 02:38:29 PM
Looks like more of this nonsense coming down the pike, some of it already known:
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/11/17/what-we-can-learn-from-wotcs-core-book-sensitivity-and-inclusivity-changes/ (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/11/17/what-we-can-learn-from-wotcs-core-book-sensitivity-and-inclusivity-changes/)
I am not too bothered by very bland core books for the large scale audience. I want to be able to give them to kids and to include the widest range of possible players. Much easier to add grimdark to taste than to work around it with core rulebooks.
With setting books (e.g., Spelljammer) this is a much worse idea because these details are part of the point of the setting.
RPGs aren't Lego, they aren't meant to be primarily marketed to young kids. So we'll have to agree to disagree on bland pap being a good default.
Even if it was meant for kids, kids love fun with a dash of dark, that's why Roald Dahl was so popular. The modern push to sanitize everything meant for children is, in of itself, unhealthy.
PS - How in God's name did you just associate pre-censorship D&D with Grimdark? You be clownin', holmes.
Books with lots of gender ideology and "decolonization" ideas plastered all over aren't for kids EVER, regardless of if they have "grimdark" stuff or not.
There already exist RPGs aimed at children, turning the resto to leftard grey goo isn't going to turn them into something I would think is good to give to children.
Quote from: Grognard GM on November 20, 2023, 02:25:42 PM
Quote from: Votan on November 20, 2023, 01:55:20 PMBut I also like that my six year old can flip through my 5E rulebooks with no concern on my part.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/106605/Hero-Kids--Fantasy-RPG?affiliate_id=1378544 (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/106605/Hero-Kids--Fantasy-RPG?affiliate_id=1378544) That's what you need to be handing your 6 year old, not championing filing all the edges out of the most popular RPG game.
So the gender ideology, comunism and racism being baked into 5e isn't concerning when handling the books to children...
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 20, 2023, 01:38:13 PM
Quote from: Votan on November 20, 2023, 01:15:19 PM
I am not too bothered by very bland core books for the large scale audience. I want to be able to give them to kids and to include the widest range of possible players. Much easier to add grimdark to taste than to work around it with core rulebooks.
Hmm, I guess I can accept that argument to some extent, but them trying to shift the Overton window until ideas like 'madness' and 'civilization' are taboo makes me nervous about what they'll demand next for the (supposed) good of children and child-like adults.
"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."
― Mark Twain
(Yes, I appreciate the irony of a vegan posting this quote.)
Quote from: GhostNinja on November 20, 2023, 09:25:03 AM
I posted a comment on the idiot who posted that blog post's video. Hasn't replied (Yet he replied to everyone else).
Guess the truth hurts.
Don't even bother, you'll just make 'your side' look bad, and they only thing that has any chance of reaching ideologues that far gone is lost sales/votes/clicks.
Vegan friendly (Can't fucking believe I'm doing ANYTHING vegan friendly) paraphrasing of Mark Twain:
"Censorship is telling a man he can't have peanuts just because someone somewhere might be alergic to them"― Mark Twain
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 02:28:05 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on November 20, 2023, 02:25:42 PM
Quote from: Votan on November 20, 2023, 01:55:20 PMBut I also like that my six year old can flip through my 5E rulebooks with no concern on my part.
https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/106605/Hero-Kids--Fantasy-RPG?affiliate_id=1378544 (https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/106605/Hero-Kids--Fantasy-RPG?affiliate_id=1378544) That's what you need to be handing your 6 year old, not championing filing all the edges out of the most popular RPG game.
So the gender ideology, comunism and racism being baked into 5e isn't concerning when handling the books to children...
I wouldn't hand a kid 5e unless he was a demon child like Damien, and I didn't have an enchanted dagger. What we were discussing is whether to shave stuff off the existing game, discussing all the shit they add is a whole other thread.
Quote from: GhostNinja on November 20, 2023, 09:25:03 AM
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 19, 2023, 04:21:07 PM
Decolonization is the latest* woke idiocy. It's another attempt to tear down existing hierarchies and replace them with their own, terrible hierarchies.
*latest in that it's been getting a lot of talk re current politics.
Wouldn't be surprised if they take Gary Gygax's name off of the new edition, just to fully erase the past.
I posted a comment on the idiot who posted that blog post's video. Hasn't replied (Yet he replied to everyone else).
Guess the truth hurts.
I didn't see any quotes that he didn't reply to, so I'm guessing it's been removed by now. Didn't see your name either, if you use the same handle on YT as here.
With 6e coming out, does anyone really care at this point?
I mean 5e is going to get all the content it likely will ever have outside of 3rd parties, and lets be honest - it's all been largely dogshit compared to their older editions. WotC is just sailing off into the sunset lobbing turds at everyone. Let them sail on! Icebergs ahead!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 20, 2023, 02:31:28 PM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 20, 2023, 01:38:13 PM
Quote from: Votan on November 20, 2023, 01:15:19 PM
I am not too bothered by very bland core books for the large scale audience. I want to be able to give them to kids and to include the widest range of possible players. Much easier to add grimdark to taste than to work around it with core rulebooks.
Hmm, I guess I can accept that argument to some extent, but them trying to shift the Overton window until ideas like 'madness' and 'civilization' are taboo makes me nervous about what they'll demand next for the (supposed) good of children and child-like adults.
"Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."
― Mark Twain
(Yes, I appreciate the irony of a vegan posting this quote.)
Quote from: GhostNinja on November 20, 2023, 09:25:03 AM
I posted a comment on the idiot who posted that blog post's video. Hasn't replied (Yet he replied to everyone else).
Guess the truth hurts.
Don't even bother, you'll just make 'your side' look bad, and they only thing that has any chance of reaching ideologues that far gone is lost sales/votes/clicks.
Vegan friendly (Can't fucking believe I'm doing ANYTHING vegan friendly) paraphrasing of Mark Twain:
"Censorship is telling a man he can't have peanuts just because someone somewhere might be alergic to them"
― Mark Twain
Well played :)
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 18, 2023, 03:19:06 PM
And the milquetoast-ification continues...
Edit: I admit I only skimmed this, but what the hell bounces around this guys mind?
"I personally would remove any mention of slavery."
"Favorite Setting: Dark Sun, then Greyhawk"
Does anyone believe for a second that this guy has ever read, let alone played, Dark Sun? It wreaks of "how do you do, fellow gamers".
I'm voting with my wallet. I won't be buying the 2024 versions of the D&D books. I'm just not going to support any of the stupidity
Quote from: GeekyBugle on November 18, 2023, 08:56:05 PM
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 18, 2023, 03:35:10 PM
So I read the blog post. Someone better back it up because it's making the round in anti-PC circles and the author might yank it for fear of giving ammunition to his 'enemies'.
The current list of banned words/concepts now includes: civilized, civilization, dark, madness, insane, crazy, dim-witted, fat, slave, slavery, savage (both noun AND adjective), primitive, mate (verb), breeding, shun (verb), dark elf, basic gender distinctions, blind (as a metaphor), ki (monk power)...
I don't know which aspect of me is more frustrated with this infantilizing language butchery, my gamer self, my English teacher self, or my freethinker self.
The worst part? There actually is a place for softer, gentler settings and games in this hobby. I've RUN softer gentler games that sidestepped these adult concepts, even for audiences of adults who wanted a break from the nastiness of the real world.
But I categorically reject the idea that it's morally necessary to try and soft-brainwash people by warping the flagship game of the hobby into some schizophrenic Disneyland where murdering things with swords and fireballs is still the primary method of problem-solving!
Quote from: rytrasmi on November 18, 2023, 03:19:06 PM
... but what the hell bounces around this guys mind?
"I personally would remove any mention of slavery."
"Favorite Setting: Dark Sun, then Greyhawk"
One wonders how his head doesn't rupture from all the sanctimonious cognitive dissonance he forces it to contain.
But maybe there's an explanation:
- Perhaps HIS Dark Sun still contains slavery because HE knows how to handle it properly, not like the intellectual peasants he's trying to protect from the KKK influence of D&D.
- Maybe HIS Dark Sun is more like a sanitized Mad Max meets Captain Planet. HIS bad guys just pollute and murder. Murder is less traumatic, you know?
"Alright boys, go and have your wicked fun decapitating, impaling, sacrificing and burning, hehehe! Oh, but not raping or enslaving, we're not monsters!"
someone already did:
https://archive.is/NZeWL# (https://archive.is/NZeWL#)
Uh... What a filthy dweeb.
Of course, you now know what words that YOU MUST include in your own RPG material.
I don't need or want my D&D books pre-sanitized for me. For one thing, kids are not the delicate little snowflakes some people like to pretend that they are. As someone already mentioned, Roald Dahl's books get quite dark and they are generally considered to be for kids ages 7-9. Also, if I want an rpg that is made for kids, there are several such games available. I own My Little Pony: Tails of Equestria, Little Wizard, Fairy's Tale and Magical Kitties Save the Day but there are lots more out there. If I want to run D&D for kids, I don't need it pre-sanitized for me. If I think that certain elements are not suitable for kids, I can just leave them out of that particular adventure. The content of that adventure is what I put in and what I decide to allow. Also, a lot of the stuff people are talking about has nothing to do with making a game kid-friendly. A lot of this stuff, like all of the decolonization stuff, is clearly ideologically driven. All of this "won't you think of the children" stuff is just a pretense. This isn't about protecting children or any of that nonsense. It's about exerting power and making the game what they want it to be.
Quote from: tenbones on November 21, 2023, 02:29:10 AM
With 6e coming out, does anyone really care at this point?
I mean 5e is going to get all the content it likely will ever have outside of 3rd parties, and lets be honest - it's all been largely dogshit compared to their older editions. WotC is just sailing off into the sunset lobbing turds at everyone. Let them sail on! Icebergs ahead!
They are certainly lobbing their fair share.
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on November 21, 2023, 06:38:56 PM
Does anyone believe for a second that this guy has ever read, let alone played, Dark Sun?
Oh I believe him, because he's posted several long essays on the setting. For instance, this one:
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2015/10/02/shh-unspeakable-organizations-in-dark-sun/
Which produced this quote:
QuoteSecret organizations often cause your PC to examine their worldview – where does the PC stand on issues like slavery, magic, Sorcerer-Kings, the ages of Athas, or the Dragon?
A very moral-relativist attitude toward slavery which I'm sure he would publicly flagellate himself for now.
In fact, here he explains why we must sanitize the past, including Dark Sun:
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2021/08/27/how-to-grow-old-in-tabletop-rpgs/
Key quote:
QuoteI love Dark Sun, but I hear a lot of people saying they are harmed by the inclusion of slavery. You know, no game is worth harming people. And we are smart and capable. We can modify Dark Sun to no longer have slavery. It isn't essential. We can work with PoC designers, who should be on our staff anyway, to make a better Dark Sun.
Buddy, do you realize how hypocritical it is to ban the idea of slavery while keeping the ultra-violence and daily suffering of a setting like Dark Sun? Are murder and desperate poverty just a game to you? If you care that much about the harm caused by fictional worlds, the correct move is not to sanitize one small part of Dark Sun's
savagery brutality, it's to abandon Dark Sun altogether!
So words to use at your table and in your RPG publications - a non-exhaustive list.
- Primitive
Civilized (Civilised lands)
Barbarian
Savage
Madness
Insane (Insane with)
Crazy
Mad person (Mad Man or Woman)
Lunatics
Dim-witted
Fat
Slaves
Guild (WTF?)
Dark Ritual (DARK WTF?)
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 22, 2023, 06:46:44 AM
Quote from: Tasty_Wind on November 21, 2023, 06:38:56 PM
Does anyone believe for a second that this guy has ever read, let alone played, Dark Sun?
Oh I believe him, because he's posted several long essays on the setting. For instance, this one:
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2015/10/02/shh-unspeakable-organizations-in-dark-sun/
Which produced this quote:
QuoteSecret organizations often cause your PC to examine their worldview – where does the PC stand on issues like slavery, magic, Sorcerer-Kings, the ages of Athas, or the Dragon?
A very moral-relativist attitude toward slavery which I'm sure he would publicly flagellate himself for now.
In fact, here he explains why we must sanitize the past, including Dark Sun:
https://alphastream.org/index.php/2021/08/27/how-to-grow-old-in-tabletop-rpgs/
Key quote:
QuoteI love Dark Sun, but I hear a lot of people saying they are harmed by the inclusion of slavery. You know, no game is worth harming people. And we are smart and capable. We can modify Dark Sun to no longer have slavery. It isn't essential. We can work with PoC designers, who should be on our staff anyway, to make a better Dark Sun.
Buddy, do you realize how hypocritical it is to ban the idea of slavery while keeping the ultra-violence and daily suffering of a setting like Dark Sun? Are murder and desperate poverty just a game to you? If you care that much about the harm caused by fictional worlds, the correct move is not to sanitize one small part of Dark Sun's savagery brutality, it's to abandon Dark Sun altogether!
So he's like the legion of Millennials that were obsessed with Harry Potter like a cult, but sawed off their own fandom like a gangrenous limb when their new cult of DIE demanded a sacrifice.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 22, 2023, 06:46:44 AM
Buddy, do you realize how hypocritical it is to ban the idea of slavery while keeping the ultra-violence and daily suffering of a setting like Dark Sun? Are murder and desperate poverty just a game to you? If you care that much about the harm caused by fictional worlds, the correct move is not to sanitize one small part of Dark Sun's savagery brutality, it's to abandon Dark Sun altogether!
What I find worse is that they're basically trying to pretend that slavery doesn't exist. Particularly when WotC is using terms like "servant" or "laborer", which to me imply consent. So if the drow are going to the surface world because they need "laborers", should we now picture a drow pulling up in a pickup to Waterdeep's Home Depot looking for migrants to come down and put up drywall in Menzoberranzen?
I guess it would be one thing if the game or gaming groups were glorifying slavery, but that's not something I've typically seen myself. It's something that makes people uncomfortable as it should, and it's one of the easiest tropes to drive a motivation or storyline - we need to stop the slavemasters! We need to free these people! etc.
It's like some of the examples these guys have in their "safety tools" video (just ran across them on YT):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqqzOmpD6EE
It's a solution in search of a problem.
Quote from: Kanyenya on November 22, 2023, 02:48:28 PMSo if the drow are going to the surface world because they need "laborers", should we now picture a drow pulling up in a pickup to Waterdeep's Home Depot looking for migrants to come down and put up drywall in Menzoberranzen?
Don't be ridiculous.
Drow pulling up on a huge Drider to Waterdeep's Carpenters, Roofers, and Plasterers Guildhall; looking for migrants to come down and put up drywall in Menzoberranzen.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 22, 2023, 06:51:56 AM
So words to use at your table and in your RPG publications - a non-exhaustive list.
- Primitive
Civilized (Civilised lands)
Barbarian
Savage
Madness
Insane (Insane with)
Crazy
Mad person (Mad Man or Woman)
Lunatics
Dim-witted
Fat
Slaves
Guild (WTF?)
Dark Ritual (DARK WTF?)
The best part is that some of the greatest modules made used plenty of these ideas! I remember using B2 Keep on the Borderlands to kick off a massive Viking-themed campaign, and if the guys who wrote this article played it they would've lost their minds. It had barbarians, savagery, guilds, madness. It's almost like that's more fun than roleplaying medieval fantasy prom.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on November 22, 2023, 08:19:47 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 22, 2023, 06:51:56 AM
So words to use at your table and in your RPG publications - a non-exhaustive list.
- Primitive
Civilized (Civilised lands)
Barbarian
Savage
Madness
Insane (Insane with)
Crazy
Mad person (Mad Man or Woman)
Lunatics
Dim-witted
Fat
Slaves
Guild (WTF?)
Dark Ritual (DARK WTF?)
The best part is that some of the greatest modules made used plenty of these ideas! I remember using B2 Keep on the Borderlands to kick off a massive Viking-themed campaign, and if the guys who wrote this article played it they would've lost their minds. It had barbarians, savagery, guilds, madness. It's almost like that's more fun than roleplaying medieval fantasy prom.
Absolutely... And a plethora of other classic fantasy games as well.
When you hire 'sensitivity readers' just for the 'optics' you know those parasites will have to find something to cry about. If they didn't they would be out of a job. They need the company's dollah'. And at the same time they promote the concept of a safety whateverthefucks.
Bunch of fat dim-witted imbecilic gimp morons.
So what we are seeing is the end of D&D. It's not going out with even a whimper.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 22, 2023, 09:45:27 PM
So what we are seeing is the end of D&D. It's not going out with even a whimper.
Isn't that a good thing? Let it burn... And let the ashes be sold to someone that actually gives a shit about the I.P.
Meanwhile, the OSR is doing pretty damn well.
Hasbro needs to step in and stop the idiocy before it sinks the property. It's obvious that Wizards can't be trusted with it anymore.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 22, 2023, 06:46:44 AM
Key quote:
QuoteI love Dark Sun, but I hear a lot of people saying they are harmed by the inclusion of slavery. You know, no game is worth harming people. And we are smart and capable. We can modify Dark Sun to no longer have slavery. It isn't essential. We can work with PoC designers, who should be on our staff anyway, to make a better Dark Sun.
Buddy, do you realize how hypocritical it is to ban the idea of slavery while keeping the ultra-violence and daily suffering of a setting like Dark Sun? Are murder and desperate poverty just a game to you? If you care that much about the harm caused by fictional worlds, the correct move is not to sanitize one small part of Dark Sun's savagery brutality, it's to abandon Dark Sun altogether!
I have a question.
"I love Dark Sun, but I hear a lot of people saying they are harmed by the inclusion of slavery."
How, exactly, are they being harmed by the inclusion of slavery in Dark Sun? What harm are they suffering?
Quote from: yosemitemike on November 22, 2023, 10:25:00 PMI have a question.
"I love Dark Sun, but I hear a lot of people saying they are harmed by the inclusion of slavery."
How, exactly, are they being harmed by the inclusion of slavery in Dark Sun? What harm are they suffering?
(https://www.openlawlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Bar-Visual-Intentional-INfliction-of-Emotional-Distress-01.png)
That's exactly the kind of vague bullshit I get as a response to this question all right.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 22, 2023, 10:11:09 PM
Hasbro needs to step in and stop the idiocy before it sinks the property. It's obvious that Wizards can't be trusted with it anymore.
Exactly...
Quote from: Kanyenya on November 22, 2023, 02:48:28 PM
I guess it would be one thing if the game or gaming groups were glorifying slavery, but that's not something I've typically seen myself. It's something that makes people uncomfortable as it should, and it's one of the easiest tropes to drive a motivation or storyline - we need to stop the slavemasters! We need to free these people! etc.
But if you're playing a remotely historical or history-influenced game that isn't Victorian pseudo-Fantasy prom, then the slaveowners aren't necessarily the enemy - they may well be the entrenched culture that the players come from. Vikings? Slaves. Bronze Age or Iron Age, at least in Europe or the Middle East? Probably slaves. Medieval? There were serfs, there were slaves, and sometimes it was hard to tell the difference (https://legalhistorymiscellany.com/2019/08/15/how-to-tell-a-serf-from-a-slave-in-medieval-england/)
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 22, 2023, 10:11:09 PM
Hasbro needs to step in and stop the idiocy before it sinks the property. It's obvious that Wizards can't be trusted with it anymore.
You mean the same company that produces the feminist Monopoly game? The same one that made The Barbie Movie? The one that scrapped Mr. Potatohead because it was sexist?
This Hasbro?
https://csr.hasbro.com/en-us
This Hasbro?
https://investor.hasbro.com/esg
AH HA HA HA HA
Quote from: BadApple on November 23, 2023, 05:32:56 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 22, 2023, 10:11:09 PM
Hasbro needs to step in and stop the idiocy before it sinks the property. It's obvious that Wizards can't be trusted with it anymore.
You mean the same company that produces the feminist Monopoly game? The same one that made The Barbie Movie? The one that scrapped Mr. Potatohead because it was sexist?
This Hasbro?
https://csr.hasbro.com/en-us
This Hasbro?
https://investor.hasbro.com/esg
AH HA HA HA HA
We know Ha$bro are scum.
D&D needs to be in the hands of true fans. Unlike the wet turds in WoTC. But I doubt it will ever happen, sadly.
I just can't wait to see what the fucktards of WotC are going to rename the Barbarian.
-Tribal Warrior: nope has tribe
-Savage: we can't use that term
-Brave: oh hell no
-Viking: too white centric but lets make a gay twink viking subclass
-Primitive Fighter: Perfect, wait primitive can't do it
-Stone Aged Person who uses Weapons and Uses Emotions to Attack: Perfect, that's the new Barbarians reskin.
Quote from: Naburimannu on November 23, 2023, 04:49:46 AM
Quote from: Kanyenya on November 22, 2023, 02:48:28 PM
I guess it would be one thing if the game or gaming groups were glorifying slavery, but that's not something I've typically seen myself. It's something that makes people uncomfortable as it should, and it's one of the easiest tropes to drive a motivation or storyline - we need to stop the slavemasters! We need to free these people! etc.
But if you're playing a remotely historical or history-influenced game that isn't Victorian pseudo-Fantasy prom, then the slaveowners aren't necessarily the enemy - they may well be the entrenched culture that the players come from. Vikings? Slaves. Bronze Age or Iron Age, at least in Europe or the Middle East? Probably slaves. Medieval? There were serfs, there were slaves, and sometimes it was hard to tell the difference (https://legalhistorymiscellany.com/2019/08/15/how-to-tell-a-serf-from-a-slave-in-medieval-england/)
That's true, I was just considering the typical D&D campaign. But there's no way in hell that these people would even get near anything that featured slavery as something that's a part of a culture regardless of whether it was historically accurate or not (assuming they didn't try to keep it from being published* in the first place). They want to eliminate anything offensive or uncomfortable as if it never existed (insert Santayana's quote...)
*: https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/bcl47f/how_gmts_scramble_for_africa_was_canceled/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgames/comments/bcl47f/how_gmts_scramble_for_africa_was_canceled/)
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 22, 2023, 09:48:47 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 22, 2023, 09:45:27 PM
So what we are seeing is the end of D&D. It's not going out with even a whimper.
Isn't that a good thing? Let it burn... And let the ashes be sold to someone that actually gives a shit about the I.P.
Meanwhile, the OSR is doing pretty damn well.
That is something good about D&D and the general RPG hobby: it's a fairly independent sphere. Sure you're gonna have tourists and autocrats trying to crack down on it, but they can't change what you do at your table. It's sorta like the BattleTech scene. They've been trying so hard to push it around, but they can't police every table.
I love D&D, but I stopped caring about official D&D when 4e dropped.
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on November 23, 2023, 02:04:05 PM
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 22, 2023, 09:48:47 PM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 22, 2023, 09:45:27 PM
So what we are seeing is the end of D&D. It's not going out with even a whimper.
Isn't that a good thing? Let it burn... And let the ashes be sold to someone that actually gives a shit about the I.P.
Meanwhile, the OSR is doing pretty damn well.
That is something good about D&D and the general RPG hobby: it's a fairly independent sphere. Sure you're gonna have tourists and autocrats trying to crack down on it, but they can't change what you do at your table. It's sorta like the BattleTech scene. They've been trying so hard to push it around, but they can't police every table.
I love D&D, but I stopped caring about official D&D when 4e dropped.
This man has the gift of common sense.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 22, 2023, 06:51:56 AM
So words to use at your table and in your RPG publications - a non-exhaustive list.
- Primitive
Civilized (Civilised lands)
Barbarian
Savage
Madness
Insane (Insane with)
Crazy
Mad person (Mad Man or Woman)
Lunatics
Dim-witted
Fat
Slaves
Guild (WTF?)
Dark Ritual (DARK WTF?)
So if you are designing a game right now, be sure to use ALL of the above terms and make the snowflakes cry. ;D
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on November 23, 2023, 02:04:05 PM
That is something good about D&D and the general RPG hobby: it's a fairly independent sphere. Sure you're gonna have tourists and autocrats trying to crack down on it, but they can't change what you do at your table. It's sorta like the BattleTech scene. They've been trying so hard to push it around, but they can't police every table.
I love Battletech but have been out of the loop for awhile. What's going on with BattleTech?
With all of this, they have taken a hatchet to the fantasy genre.
Pray tell? What are people supposed to play now? They have cast virtually every adventure made since the 70's wrong and offensive
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on November 23, 2023, 02:04:05 PM
I love D&D, but I stopped caring about official D&D...
This is the way. It's been the way for decades.
Quote from: GhostNinja on November 23, 2023, 06:05:10 PM
Quote from: 1stLevelWizard on November 23, 2023, 02:04:05 PM
That is something good about D&D and the general RPG hobby: it's a fairly independent sphere. Sure you're gonna have tourists and autocrats trying to crack down on it, but they can't change what you do at your table. It's sorta like the BattleTech scene. They've been trying so hard to push it around, but they can't police every table.
I love Battletech but have been out of the loop for awhile. What's going on with BattleTech?
I'll admit I just got into the tabletop wargame last August, and I'm even newer to the RPG for BattleTech. However, it's most of the drama comes from the usual bunch. People complaining about representation where it isn't needed. Hell they released a "Queer Tales of the Inner Sphere" series of stories not long ago.
Honestly, I've been sticking to the older books just to avoid it entirely. I just bought the
Tales of the Black Widow Company book.
QuoteI love Dark Sun, but I hear a lot of people saying they are harmed by the inclusion of slavery.
I am sick of the term "harmed". I am "harmed" every day by regressive jackasses who make me concerned that they wield the levers of social power and consider 1984 to be an instruction manual.
QuoteYou know, no game is worth harming people. And we are smart and capable. We can modify Dark Sun to no longer have slavery. It isn't essential. We can work with PoC designers, who should be on our staff anyway, to make a better Dark Sun.
What about the "PoC" who realize that "being harmed" is regressive code for "We control your entertainment, fucker, and we're going to constantly destroy it and rebuild it in order to serve our vanity."
This is the language of emotional blackmail and narcissist manipulators. Recognize it. Resist it.
Quote from: Ratman_tf on November 23, 2023, 10:26:32 PM
QuoteI love Dark Sun, but I hear a lot of people saying they are harmed by the inclusion of slavery.
I am sick of the term "harmed". I am "harmed" every day by regressive jackasses who make me concerned that they wield the levers of social power and consider 1984 to be an instruction manual.
QuoteYou know, no game is worth harming people. And we are smart and capable. We can modify Dark Sun to no longer have slavery. It isn't essential. We can work with PoC designers, who should be on our staff anyway, to make a better Dark Sun.
What about the "PoC" who realize that "being harmed" is regressive code for "We control your entertainment, fucker, and we're going to constantly destroy it and rebuild it in order to serve our vanity."
This is the language of emotional blackmail and narcissist manipulators. Recognize it. Resist it.
Yeah, what 'harm' exactly? What they really mean is being 'upset'. And that's not our problem... Don't like it? Play my little pony or some shit.
What causes 'real' harm are dweebs who want to censor the hobby and stifle another person's creativity.
And it's called 'Dark' Sun for a reason, and 'slavery' within the product is not going anywhere, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote from: Rob Necronomicon on November 23, 2023, 03:33:07 AM
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 22, 2023, 10:11:09 PM
Hasbro needs to step in and stop the idiocy before it sinks the property. It's obvious that Wizards can't be trusted with it anymore.
Exactly...
Anymore?
No.
Never.
wotc is NEVER satisfied with a win and MUST fuck it up. Failure is the ONLY option.
Even with all the win they garnered with early 5e. They were already trying to fuck it up. 5 years later and the fuck ups were near full steam. At this point theres barely a month that does not pass without wotc shooting themselves in the head. AGAIN!
Expect more of this stupid. Lots more and somehow worse.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 23, 2023, 06:41:12 AM
I just can't wait to see what the fucktards of WotC are going to rename the Barbarian.
-Tribal Warrior: nope has tribe
-Savage: we can't use that term
-Brave: oh hell no
-Viking: too white centric but lets make a gay twink viking subclass
-Primitive Fighter: Perfect, wait primitive can't do it
-Stone Aged Person who uses Weapons and Uses Emotions to Attack: Perfect, that's the new Barbarians reskin.
Angry Luddites
Sons of Kaczynski
Raging Autists (somehow is politically correct to make fun of people with autism if they are male)
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 23, 2023, 06:41:12 AM
I just can't wait to see what the fucktards of WotC are going to rename the Barbarian.
-Tribal Warrior: nope has tribe
-Savage: we can't use that term
-Brave: oh hell no
-Viking: too white centric but lets make a gay twink viking subclass
-Primitive Fighter: Perfect, wait primitive can't do it
-Stone Aged Person who uses Weapons and Uses Emotions to Attack: Perfect, that's the new Barbarians reskin.
You know damn well they're just going to call it 'berserker' or something weightless like 'rager'.
Berserker is Norse and thus 'Nazi', so it gets no sensitive kid-glove protection. They'll 'reclaim' the word for the good people of the world.
Alternatively, rager is the kind of word they slathered all over 4th-edition D&D's flavorless splatbook feature names that couldn't even evoke a yawn.
Double post
Quote from: Shipyard Locked on November 24, 2023, 06:19:40 AM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on November 23, 2023, 06:41:12 AM
I just can't wait to see what the fucktards of WotC are going to rename the Barbarian.
-Tribal Warrior: nope has tribe
-Savage: we can't use that term
-Brave: oh hell no
-Viking: too white centric but lets make a gay twink viking subclass
-Primitive Fighter: Perfect, wait primitive can't do it
-Stone Aged Person who uses Weapons and Uses Emotions to Attack: Perfect, that's the new Barbarians reskin.
You know damn well they're just going to call it 'berserker' or something weightless like 'rager'.
Berserker is Norse and thus 'Nazi', so it gets no sensitive kid-glove protection. They'll 'reclaim' the word for the good people of the world.
Alternatively, rager is the kind of word they slathered all over 4th-edition D&D's flavorless splatbook feature names that couldn't even evoke a yawn.
I think with proper pressure put on WotC via sock puppet accounts we could get them to retire the Barbarian class because its systemically racist and is unredeemable. It should wake up quite a few players that WotC is beyond fucked in censoring content.
Quote from: BadApple on November 24, 2023, 05:33:30 AM
Raging Autists (somehow is politically correct to make fun of people with autism if they are male)
Only the white ones.