Inspired by a few posts over Pundit's own Forum:

I think we've had this discussion before, but anyhow here it goes:

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 11, 2024, 11:26:16 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 11, 2024, 10:25:46 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 11, 2024, 09:03:41 PMWell, you could play before/after LotR or elsewhere in his world.

But I mostly agree with you. Mostly because I find ALL IP base gaming to be just as constraining.

Which is why I play/build worlds inspired by but not the IP.

Whenever playing or GMing in a setting where big heroes did colossal deeds, I either want it set in a different time or region of he world, or it's an alternate universe take where fate isn't set.

So for LOTR some earlier age (not later, the magic and races are fading) where there's maybe a big bad not mentioned in lore. Or you're the most important heroes in a distant part of Middle Earth. Or maybe the ring finds its way to a different Hobbit, and he sets out for Mount Doom with his friends.

Don't make your players fight over scraps of glory in a universe where they're bit players in someone else's story.

This, one million times this.

The Player wants to be The Hero not a hero.

So, play before LotR, Star Wars Episode IV, etc.

Or build a world that's inspired by but it's not The IP.

I guess that's why most IP based RPGs wind up a modest and niche "success" at best or are forgotten at worst.

WEG got it right with their Ghostbusters game, you're running a franchise, so The Ghostbusters aren't stepping on your toes and you're not under their shadow, and it's still mostly forgotten with the exception of us Grognards.

The only advantage of playing in a world BEFORE The Heroes did their thing is that the Players know it and have some core asumptions about it.

The Disadvantage is that the Players know it and have some core asumptions about it. Meaning they KNOW the BIG BAD is in the future, they aren't the ULTIMATE Heroes, but can carve a name for themselves.

Meanwhile, if I tell them "It's Space Opera with Mystic Knights" they have the same core assumptions about the setting without any bagage, now THEY can be the ones to defeat the BIG BAD.

I really like the LotR, but I don't want to play the LotR specifically.  Something in the same genre, wouldn't have the storyline baggage.

I have three setting I use to run games.  In all three cases they are my setting but they are collages of things in those genres I like rather than me trying to be fully original.  To date, I've never been caught (or at least called out) stealing from other IPs.

I have run into other people doing this same thing where I am the player.  When it's the GM stitching in things they love, it's almost always fun.

Quote from: BadApple on January 12, 2024, 01:43:03 AM
I have three setting I use to run games.  In all three cases they are my setting but they are collages of things in those genres I like rather than me trying to be fully original.  To date, I've never been caught (or at least called out) stealing from other IPs.

I have run into other people doing this same thing where I am the player.  When it's the GM stitching in things they love, it's almost always fun.

I'd catch you

I had a GM just setting up his massive campaign, and I said "oh yeah, I read Raymond E. Feist too!" He was crestfallen 

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 12, 2024, 02:29:29 AM

Quote from: BadApple on January 12, 2024, 01:43:03 AM
I have three setting I use to run games.  In all three cases they are my setting but they are collages of things in those genres I like rather than me trying to be fully original.  To date, I've never been caught (or at least called out) stealing from other IPs.

I have run into other people doing this same thing where I am the player.  When it's the GM stitching in things they love, it's almost always fun.

I'd catch you

I had a GM just setting up his massive campaign, and I said "oh yeah, I read Raymond E. Feist too!" He was crestfallen 

I probably would too, but I wouldn't say a thing, IMNSHO stealing is perfectly fine, kitbashing is allowed too, it's all in the execution.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 12, 2024, 02:29:29 AM
I'd catch you

I had a GM just setting up his massive campaign, and I said "oh yeah, I read Raymond E. Feist too!" He was crestfallen 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 12, 2024, 02:49:46 AM
I probably would too, but I wouldn't say a thing, IMNSHO stealing is perfectly fine, kitbashing is allowed too, it's all in the execution.

Maybe, but I'm a lot less worried about being caught than I am about using the material in a way that is fresh and fun.  I'd like to think not that I'm really cleaver about hiding my inspiration but that I use it in a way that makes players really want to go along with it.

I'm not really that worried if you catch me out that my blue and white orders are really the Bene Geseerit and the Fish Speakers.  What I want it the murder mystery as to why this not-a-Jedi is dead in a underground fight club to be appealing. 

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 11, 2024, 11:37:37 PM
The only advantage of playing in a world BEFORE The Heroes did their thing is that the Players know it and have some core asumptions about it.

The Disadvantage is that the Players know it and have some core asumptions about it. Meaning they KNOW the BIG BAD is in the future, they aren't the ULTIMATE Heroes, but can carve a name for themselves.

Meanwhile, if I tell them "It's Space Opera with Mystic Knights" they have the same core assumptions about the setting without any bagage, now THEY can be the ones to defeat the BIG BAD.

The problem with core assumptions is that it can still take long-winded explanation to explain all the differences from the canonical setting. If I'm playing in actual Star Wars, the players can just jump and know what everything is. They know what Wookies are, rather than having to explain how Ursoids are different than Wookies.

I'll soon be doing another run of my Savage Middle Earth game next month. I've played in fairly endless Tolkienesque variants over decades, and maybe it's just the overuse of them - but I find that doing actual Tolkien is refreshing and different. And the PCs absolutely can be the ones to defeat the BIG BAD. In my game, they'll be going up against Sauron. Now, some people don't like that because they are purists to the canonical plot, but it's definitely possible for to play in an alternative plotline - just like how I'd ignore the metaplot of an RPG setting.

I think one problem is in how many licensed RPGs are done. I just got The One Ring for Christmas, and while I like some parts of it, it seems set up that the PCs be run-of-the-mill nobodies in the backwaters dealing with minor issues. Even in The Hobbit, Tolkien wrote about grand journeys dealing with world-changing events. In other RPG adaptations like Marvel Superheroes and James Bond 007, it's assumed that the PCs could be the equals of the canonical characters, or even the characters themselves.

Quote from: jhkim on January 12, 2024, 03:47:49 AM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 11, 2024, 11:37:37 PM
The only advantage of playing in a world BEFORE The Heroes did their thing is that the Players know it and have some core asumptions about it.

The Disadvantage is that the Players know it and have some core asumptions about it. Meaning they KNOW the BIG BAD is in the future, they aren't the ULTIMATE Heroes, but can carve a name for themselves.

Meanwhile, if I tell them "It's Space Opera with Mystic Knights" they have the same core assumptions about the setting without any bagage, now THEY can be the ones to defeat the BIG BAD.

The problem with core assumptions is that it can still take long-winded explanation to explain all the differences from the canonical setting. If I'm playing in actual Star Wars, the players can just jump and know what everything is. They know what Wookies are, rather than having to explain how Ursoids are different than Wookies.

I'll soon be doing another run of my Savage Middle Earth game next month. I've played in fairly endless Tolkienesque variants over decades, and maybe it's just the overuse of them - but I find that doing actual Tolkien is refreshing and different. And the PCs absolutely can be the ones to defeat the BIG BAD. In my game, they'll be going up against Sauron. Now, some people don't like that because they are purists to the canonical plot, but it's definitely possible for to play in an alternative plotline - just like how I'd ignore the metaplot of an RPG setting.

I think one problem is in how many licensed RPGs are done. I just got The One Ring for Christmas, and while I like some parts of it, it seems set up that the PCs be run-of-the-mill nobodies in the backwaters dealing with minor issues. Even in The Hobbit, Tolkien wrote about grand journeys dealing with world-changing events. In other RPG adaptations like Marvel Superheroes and James Bond 007, it's assumed that the PCs could be the equals of the canonical characters, or even the characters themselves.

Assuming your players aren't into discovering new things/worlds, or you're very bad at describing things or they are very slow to grok things.

"Doing actual LotR is refreshing and different" HUH!? Even those who haven't read the books more likely than not have seen the movies, how can it be "refreshing"?

Proceeds to agree with my main issue with canonical worlds... Only to follow with this: "When making up your super-hero (in whatever comic book universe) it's assumed you are the equal of the canonical ones or can be one of those"

Well duh! This is like saying that while playing D&D it's asumed you're the equal to other adventurers of the same class/level or could be them.

As for 007, no, unless YOU'RE 007, you can never be his equal, it's been established he's the best of the best.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 11, 2024, 11:37:37 PM
Meanwhile, if I tell them "It's Space Opera with Mystic Knights" they have the same core assumptions about the setting without any bagage, now THEY can be the ones to defeat the BIG BAD.

If the players are on board. If not, you're left with the issue "We want to play Star Wars, not your generic brand knockoff".

If I want to play Star Wars or Trek or Babylon 5, I go into it with the knowledge that there are certain setting conceits. I'm not going to blurt out "SINCLAIR IS VALEN!" If the game is set during Season 1 of B5, for example. (Unless there was an in-game reason for it.)

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 12, 2024, 01:46:05 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 11, 2024, 11:37:37 PM
Meanwhile, if I tell them "It's Space Opera with Mystic Knights" they have the same core assumptions about the setting without any bagage, now THEY can be the ones to defeat the BIG BAD.

If the players are on board. If not, you're left with the issue "We want to play Star Wars, not your generic brand knockoff".

If I want to play Star Wars or Trek or Babylon 5, I go into it with the knowledge that there are certain setting conceits. I'm not going to blurt out "SINCLAIR IS VALEN!" If the game is set during Season 1 of B5, for example. (Unless there was an in-game reason for it.)

Yeah. If someone is a Star Wars fan or Star Trek or Babylon 5 fan, then the easiest sell is to play directly in that setting. I've played in a lot of established settings, including Star Wars, Star Trek, James Bond 007, Call of Cthulhu, Marvel Superheroes, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Dresden Files, Temeraire, and others. They've generally been fun.

I'm not opposed to original settings, but for me, they need a positive selling point for them rather than just "It's like X but a bunch of minor random changes". For example, Harn as a setting is inspired by Middle Earth, but it has a lot of intentional differences, in particular making it much more grounded in real medieval history as well as it's uniquely detailed style.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 12, 2024, 11:51:16 AM
"Doing actual LotR is refreshing and different" HUH!? Even those who haven't read the books more likely than not have seen the movies, how can it be "refreshing"?

It's refreshing because as far as role-playing goes, I've played a lot more of generic Tolkien knock-off settings as opposed to Middle Earth games. And even in the Middle Earth games, they've tended to be quite unlike Tolkien's stories. Tolkien-based games tend to ignore the epic and mythic sides to his writing, and make everything mundane, standardized, and repeated.

In a Marvel Superheroes game, I might playing as Spider-Man or at least the equivalent. In a James Bond 007, I might be playing as double-oh agents who are at least in Bond's category if not as good as him. Most of the times when I played Star Trek, the PCs were the captain and head officers of a top-of-the-line starship. In Buffy, we were playing as a group with a Slayer (or variant) who saves the town or sometimes even the world. In all these, the PCs are dealing with a BIG BAD similar to what would be in a real installment of the original IP series.


However, there are many games where the RPG adaptations or imitations don't match the source material -- and this includes most Tolkien-based games. The tendency is to play minor characters going on local quests, like investigating the weird tower outside of town. This is nothing like the The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. That's true even for most generic Tolkien knock-offs. Typically, the PCs aren't on their way to overcome a BIG BAD like Smaug or Sauron, but are only dealing with some local problem.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 12, 2024, 01:46:05 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 11, 2024, 11:37:37 PM
Meanwhile, if I tell them "It's Space Opera with Mystic Knights" they have the same core assumptions about the setting without any bagage, now THEY can be the ones to defeat the BIG BAD.

If the players are on board. If not, you're left with the issue "We want to play Star Wars, not your generic brand knockoff".

If I want to play Star Wars or Trek or Babylon 5, I go into it with the knowledge that there are certain setting conceits. I'm not going to blurt out "SINCLAIR IS VALEN!" If the game is set during Season 1 of B5, for example. (Unless there was an in-game reason for it.)

That's a given whatever system/setting combination you're talking about. Which includes but isn't limited to: IP settings.

Quote from: jhkim on January 12, 2024, 04:04:18 PM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on January 12, 2024, 01:46:05 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 11, 2024, 11:37:37 PM
Meanwhile, if I tell them "It's Space Opera with Mystic Knights" they have the same core assumptions about the setting without any bagage, now THEY can be the ones to defeat the BIG BAD.

If the players are on board. If not, you're left with the issue "We want to play Star Wars, not your generic brand knockoff".

If I want to play Star Wars or Trek or Babylon 5, I go into it with the knowledge that there are certain setting conceits. I'm not going to blurt out "SINCLAIR IS VALEN!" If the game is set during Season 1 of B5, for example. (Unless there was an in-game reason for it.)

Yeah. If someone is a Star Wars fan or Star Trek or Babylon 5 fan, then the easiest sell is to play directly in that setting. I've played in a lot of established settings, including Star Wars, Star Trek, James Bond 007, Call of Cthulhu, Marvel Superheroes, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Dresden Files, Temeraire, and others. They've generally been fun.

I'm not opposed to original settings, but for me, they need a positive selling point for them rather than just "It's like X but a bunch of minor random changes". For example, Harn as a setting is inspired by Middle Earth, but it has a lot of intentional differences, in particular making it much more grounded in real medieval history as well as it's uniquely detailed style.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on January 12, 2024, 11:51:16 AM
"Doing actual LotR is refreshing and different" HUH!? Even those who haven't read the books more likely than not have seen the movies, how can it be "refreshing"?

It's refreshing because as far as role-playing goes, I've played a lot more of generic Tolkien knock-off settings as opposed to Middle Earth games. And even in the Middle Earth games, they've tended to be quite unlike Tolkien's stories. Tolkien-based games tend to ignore the epic and mythic sides to his writing, and make everything mundane, standardized, and repeated.

In a Marvel Superheroes game, I might playing as Spider-Man or at least the equivalent. In a James Bond 007, I might be playing as double-oh agents who are at least in Bond's category if not as good as him. Most of the times when I played Star Trek, the PCs were the captain and head officers of a top-of-the-line starship. In Buffy, we were playing as a group with a Slayer (or variant) who saves the town or sometimes even the world. In all these, the PCs are dealing with a BIG BAD similar to what would be in a real installment of the original IP series.


However, there are many games where the RPG adaptations or imitations don't match the source material -- and this includes most Tolkien-based games. The tendency is to play minor characters going on local quests, like investigating the weird tower outside of town. This is nothing like the The Lord of the Rings or The Hobbit. That's true even for most generic Tolkien knock-offs. Typically, the PCs aren't on their way to overcome a BIG BAD like Smaug or Sauron, but are only dealing with some local problem.

So, it's refreshing for YOU. Got it.

I don't know about you but I've never played or GMed a game where the players KNOW ahead of time who and where the BIG BAD is, much less what they have to do to defeat it, regardless of the setting.

IMNSHO that would defeat the purpose of the game both for players and GM.

Heck, in a sandbox I as the GM don't know who/where the BIG BAD is or what the players will do to defeat it ahead of time.

So the argument is that because someone went out and slew a dragon that no one else can ever slay a dragon and be a hero too?

That is patently stupid.

Quote from: Omega on January 12, 2024, 09:41:09 PM
So the argument is that because someone went out and slew a dragon that no one else can ever slay a dragon and be a hero too?

That is patently stupid.

Yes, because, as we all know, Star Wars is filled to the brim with Emperors and Darth Vaders... 

A potential benefit of established IP settings is tone. A player familiar with Middle Earth is unlikely to make the same kind of character for a Middle Earth campaign than they'd make for Game of Thrones or generic D&D land. There's a well-set understanding in most people's minds that Middle Earth is about the heroism of the common man and protecting the good things in life from the forces of darkness, not cynically trying to snatch as much money and power as you can get away with.

You can try and get that same tone/theme across in "Middle-Earth with the serial numbers filed off", but in my experience you're going to have to spill a lot of ink to do it, and a significant percentage of players will still fall back on playing the same way that other fantasy games have already taught them to.