Spare us yet another fucking regurgitation of the Tolkein-esque staples of elves, dwarves, halflings and orcs. Anything but that tired old shit yet again.

Our current fantasy game is primarily humans, with Planetouched (genasi, aasimar, tieflings) as a minority with even rarer other stuff like gnolls, ogres and trolls.

No Tolkein-standbys anywhere.

Goblins often in my campaigns represent a generally selfish, but well-organized, savage bulwark against harsh monster-filled wilderness. So human civilization does not face continuous assault by big magical monsters, as there's so many goblins in the badlands to go through, easily harass, and feed off of. Occasionally goblins raid humanity because of easy opportunity or extra pressure, but in general they prefer to keep their own territory -- which often is the poorer wastes and wilds, which is easier to hold and less desired.

As for elves, I sort of like the "civilization so old and calcified, and so long lived, that they are finding themselves helpless before rapid evolutionary adaptation." Better than the eco-terrorist elves. It explains their lack of world dominance any more, and their slow XP progression.

It also works wonderfully well for dragons, too! They are just older, more calcified, and longer-lived that what's left can barely be called dragon civilization. Further they found their attempts at civ. so decadent as to be a failed experiment not worth trying anymore. Sorta like if you follow Hindu or Native American mythos where great ages rolled by cycle by cycle, and people willfully escaped to technical devolution to avoid too much destruction.

I guess those elves and dragons represent ennui in the face of entropy; races who have succumbed to the knowledge of the King in Yellow or something.

Depends on the setting. But I prefer both.

In some settings an elf an orc and a dragon are not much different from a human in culture or personality after you scrub off the pointy ears or snouts and some particular quirk.

In others the same elf orc and dragon races might have very fleshed out and defined cultures and outlooks.

A fully human setting can be fun, a fully alien setting can be boring. Or the other way round.

Presentation and how it all fits together is they key.

One question that comes up is.

How many races is too many races?

I like a nice spread of options. But not too many all at once.

Quote from: Thanos;751765Basically I'm trying to create my own setting and I'm mulling over races. I made up a list and it had elves and dwarves on it, with the idea to do something different with them. Then I thought why are they even on the list except that it's expected.

They are on the list because you put them on the list. Simple as that.

If you don't want them on the list then take them off. It's your setting, why include things you don't like?

Quote from: Thanos;751765Why are there God damn elves in fantasy games!!!!

Generically, because of Lord of the Rings.

On a setting by setting basis, it depends.

• A Dark Ages game set in northern Europe has them because they are there in the mythology.
• A medieval Britain game has them because they are in the folklore.
• Something like Corum has them because they are inherent parts of the setting.
• Glorantha has them because they are fit the Plant-Man combination.
• D&D settings have them because D&D has them.
• Discworld has them because Lords and Ladies was funny.

Quote from: Necrozius;751723I once read an idea that I liked: take all the classic, cliché races from Fantasy and make them all human. Give them similar traits and cultures. Suddenly you're free to play around with the usual tropes and perhaps come up with some original material.

Technically this is what Shadowrun did.  All the fantasy races are still humans, though I think you were probably thinking something a little less as far out as how Shadowrun did it.

Quote from: Opaopajr;751896As for elves, I sort of like the "civilization so old and calcified, and so long lived, that they are finding themselves helpless before rapid evolutionary adaptation." Better than the eco-terrorist elves. It explains their lack of world dominance any more, and their slow XP progression.

That's pretty much the trope I follow for elves: that given their longevity, their answer to many problems is "In fifty years they'll all die off anyway."  A significant plot thread in my campaign in recent years has involved PCs trying to goad the powerful (and isolationist) elven nation into action on the world stage.

I think the important thing isn't *why* you have races, it's the fact that you have a reason at all.

99% of the reason to have races (to have something mysterious!) can be done with human cultures just as easily.  Put non-humans in for a reason, not just because you assume they should be.

Note that "because my audience expects them" is a perfectly valid reason

A lot of 'races' in various media are just there to have an analog to a real-world culture that's somewhat less offensive.

I'd agree with robiswrong. While there's nothing inherently wrong with fantasy races, I think they're overdone. You should consider fantasy options other than race.

Races are a code for how the fantasy world is divided up. Fantasy races are exaggerated differences that associate physical and supernatural differences with race. So for a lot of fantasy worlds, the first question about a PC or an NPC is typically what race they are. There are lots of other possibilities, though, that can emphasize other things. For example,

1) Werewolf: The Apocalypse makes time of birth into a major component of character. There are also birth sign effects in a number of medieval-inspired games like Chivalry & Sorcery, HarnMaster, and Fantasy Wargaming.

2) In a fantasy world, one's religion could be a major effect. So followers of the Sun God could be as different from the Earth Goddess as dwarves are from elves.  

3) Nationality could be have a fantasy component. This is implied in 7th Sea and Legend of the 5 Rings, though I'm not sure if it is explicit. i.e. If a Castillian family settles in Avalon and adopts their ways, will their children be Castillian or Avalon?  The latter would make it interestingly distinct from race.

4) Birth order is often of great importance in fairy tales and myth, and novels like Orson Scott Card's Seventh Son or Patricia Wrede's Thirteenth Child. It would be interesting for that to have a major effect on character creation in a fantasy world.

If you have fantasy races, there are some non-standard options to consider as well, besides varying what the races are:

1) Races can be mixed. So you could have a character that is half-orc, quarter elf, and quarter dwarf. This would require a system that allows picking and choosing among traits rather than rigidly defined race options.

2) The races are not monocultures. Probably this would mean having fewer races, but some contrasting cultures within each race.

3) Humans don't exist, or exist but aren't the central norm. For example, you might have a world primarily populated by various small races - goblins, dwarves, gnomes, and halflings - and humans are the strange "giants" of the world.

Quote from: Thanos;751720So do you have multiple races simply for their exotic qualities or do they fill a roll in settings? Some times I get the feeling their are there just because that's how it's always been done.

For an interesting take on fantasy races read Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos and Dragaera novels. Basically there are two races: Humans/Easterners (us) and Dragaerans/Elves. The Dragaerans maintain an Empire that has lasted for hundreds of thousands of years through the use of endless cycles of political houses and the peaceful transference of power.

There are other races too but they are minor. The Serioli are never described but apparently are a small gnome-like race which makes magic items. The Jhereg are intelligent mini-dragons with a poisonous bite. Then there are The Gods and the Jenoine, a second group of god beings who are attempting to reenter the world.

Quote from: Doughdee222;752086For an interesting take on fantasy races read Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos and Dragaera novels. Basically there are two races: Humans/Easterners (us) and Dragaerans/Elves. The Dragaerans maintain an Empire that has lasted for hundreds of thousands of years through the use of endless cycles of political houses and the peaceful transference of power.

So why couldn't the Dragaerans been humans of a different culture?

Quote from: robiswrong;752087So why couldn't the Dragaerans been humans of a different culture?

Because then they wouldn't be Dragaerans.  

But seriously, what's the real hangup with having elves*.  Players/people like elves, it's just pretentious game/world designers like me (on the internet mostly) that hate elves.  If you say "fantasy" and there aren't elves, then to most players, it ain't fantasy.  The elves won this battle as far as I can tell, so rather than fight it, run with it.  Make interesting elves and throw in some cool human cultures (and elven cultures too).


*et al

Quote from: Brander;752090Because then they wouldn't be Dragaerans.  

But seriously, what's the real hangup with having elves*.  Players/people like elves, it's just pretentious game/world designers like me (on the internet mostly) that hate elves.  If you say "fantasy" and there aren't elves, then to most players, it ain't fantasy.  The elves won this battle as far as I can tell, so rather than fight it, run with it.  Make interesting elves and throw in some cool human cultures (and elven cultures too).


*et al

I don't care if people have elves.  Hell, I even suggested that having elves for no other reason than "my audience expects it" is perfectly understandable.

But the Dragaeran example was interesting because of the *culture* and political systems, not because of the pointy ears.  Most "interesting" races would be exactly as interesting if you turned them into humans with the same culture.

Quote from: robiswrong;752087So why couldn't the Dragaerans been humans of a different culture?

Because their culture largely depended upon individuals living for several thousand years. Oh I suppose humans with a normal life span could have been used, but the whole flavor would have been changed too.

I think a lot depends on the tone of the setting as well.

It can be fun to have the classic races and really most people end up playing most races other than human just like a human but short or with pointy ears. That or to a stereotype. Its like a previous poster said its sort of a Star Trek effect. That being said its great for a more lighthearted approach.

I think if you want to have a more dark or horror feel its best to only allow human PCs as is easier to relate to and makes the non human races well more non human.

Either works though just depends on what you want to achieve.