Why don't you take "Deliberately misinterpret people's words to create strawmen", it's about all you're good for these days it seems.

The point is every single hobby contains under-represented groups and over-represented groups.  There may be various systemic "isms" involved, or it may simply be differences in the demographics themselves.

If women don't participate in numbers matching their population percentage, there could be reasons other than Privileged, Misogynistic Patriarchy.  Since most people here have one or more women at their normal gaming table, Green Ronin's argument would seem to suggest that for every woman at their table, there are two more that are willing, but afraid to enter the hobby without being given safe spaces and preferential hiring practices.

Horseshit.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957812So your argument is that women aren't under-represented in RPGs because there are exactly as many women in RPGs as there are women in RPGs?

I'll take "Tautological Misogyny" for $1000, Alex.

At one time our gaming group was balanced with women, girlfriends then wives.  The women no longer play.  
But I found out where they go, because I picked up my woman at her "gaming group".
There was about fifty other women there of all ages and not a single man at all.
Men are hardly represented in sewing, quilting, pottery, crafting, etcetera groups at all.
Even worse the women there don't seem to care at all about our absence.
Where the hell are the SJWs on this scandal?

Quote from: CRKrueger;957813The point is every single hobby contains under-represented groups and over-represented groups.

Sure. But you've gone from claiming to disagree with me to violently agreeing with me.

This isn't difficult: Spinachcat claims that a list of playtesters from 1982 which is 25% women is proof that women were never under-represented. Even ignoring the obvious sampling problem, this is nonsense because a 25% participation rate is the definition of under-represented. You can claim that there's nothing wrong with them being under-represented, but that doesn't mean that they're not under-represented.

Quote from: CRKrueger;957813The point is every single hobby contains under-represented groups and over-represented groups.  There may be various systemic "isms" involved, or it may simply be differences in the demographics themselves.

If women don't participate in numbers matching their population percentage, there could be reasons other than Privileged, Misogynistic Patriarchy.  Since most people here have one or more women at their normal gaming table, Green Ronin's argument would seem to suggest that for every woman at their table, there are two more that are willing, but afraid to enter the hobby without being given safe spaces and preferential hiring practices.

Is there some place that Green Ronin is claiming this, or is it an assumption based on their recent talent search?  

From the talent search, they might just as easily think that for every five women at the table, there is one put off by sexism in the industry. I suspect they think there are some barriers to women. However, even if there were no sexism, they still might be interested in specifically recruiting a specific demographics.

For me personally, I don't see any moral/ethical need for gaming to be 50% women - but I like mixed-gender groups and support trying to recruit different people.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957839Spinachcat claims that a list of playtesters from 1982 which is 25% women is proof that women were never under-represented.

The retcon of gaming history has been SJW bullshit that females have not been present in gaming because of how unsafe they feel. Their RPG rape culture delusions have become unassailable canon truth in many corners.

Except its a crock of shit.

Every time someone who gamed in the early days of the hobby talks about the presence of women or teen girls as active hobbyists, its quickly dismissed ad nauseum because it doesn't fit the SJW anti-male narrative.
 
The value of the Chaosium playtester list (or the Judges Guild team pics) is hard evidence from the actual time exists that shows the "no women in gaming" narrative to be a lie.

Women have been a part of RPG history since the earliest days. They were welcome at tables across the country long before grrl power became a marketing device.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;956922I don't know the percentage of women at GaryCon, but it's a lot.  Probably thirty to forty percent, ranging from grade school kids to grandmothers.

It was wonderful to see two nine year old girls rip into each others' armies with undisguised glee in John Bobek's "Little Wars" miniatures game.

For that matter, one chap in his mid 20s brought his non gaming girlfriend, and she tried a number of games including 'Don't Give Up The Ship."  She was playing British and captured two French frigates singlehandedly.

I've noticed that RPG composition tends to reflect people's larger social group.  People with a lot of both male and female friends tend to end up in gaming groups with a mixed composition.

I brought my Hui Chinese wife to GaryCon this year and she had a blast and had no cultural context. One of the great things about GaryCon (Nexus and GameHole Con too) is that they really make it friendly for families and nongaming folks. This year's GameHoleCon is going to have a kid's track that we're signing our daughter up for.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;957839Sure. But you've gone from claiming to disagree with me to violently agreeing with me.

This isn't difficult: Spinachcat claims that a list of playtesters from 1982 which is 25% women is proof that women were never under-represented. Even ignoring the obvious sampling problem, this is nonsense because a 25% participation rate is the definition of under-represented. You can claim that there's nothing wrong with them being under-represented, but that doesn't mean that they're not under-represented.

Do you think that all things should be represented by their % of the population? And if so, what do we use for the base representative %?

Quote from: Spinachcat;957849Every time someone who gamed in the early days of the hobby talks about the presence of women or teen girls as active hobbyists, its quickly dismissed ad nauseum because it doesn't fit the SJW anti-male narrative.
 
The value of the Chaosium playtester list (or the Judges Guild team pics) is hard evidence from the actual time exists that shows the "no women in gaming" narrative to be a lie.

Women have been a part of RPG history since the earliest days. They were welcome at tables across the country long before grrl power became a marketing device.

The idea that there were 0% women is absurd, and it is equally absurd to say that all women were 100% welcome at every table. Gary Alan Fine did an ethnographic study of gamers in 1980, published as "Shared Worlds" in 1983. From his section on acceptance of women, here is a bit.

QuoteGary Gygax noted that a designer recently hired by TSR Hobbies had difficulties adjusting to her gaming group:
She said "at first they didn't want me to play" and then they would let her play, they made her play a male character first. Then after she played a while, she could play whoever she wanted. [Personal interview]

Even when the treatment isn't overtly hostile, comments may lead the female to question whether she is welcomed:
GAF: Are [women] accepted by male players?
Jack: Yeah, they're accepted. They're accepted and they're sort of treated special. I mean people make a little joke about them, or talk to them in kind of a kidding way, and it's quite obviously a reflection of our own societal values. You know, they're making sexual remarks to the girl and teasing her about sex and so on: it's considered standard, no big deal. [Personal interview]

Google books link: https://books.google.com/books?id=rLlLbN0XuSEC&lpg=PA62&vq=women%20in%20fantasy%20games&pg=PA62#v=snippet&q=women%20in%20fantasy%20games&f=false

Some women were welcome at some tables, other women were not welcomed at other tables.

Quote from: CRKrueger;957813Why don't you take "Deliberately misinterpret people's words to create strawmen", it's about all you're good for these days it seems.

The point is every single hobby contains under-represented groups and over-represented groups.  There may be various systemic "isms" involved, or it may simply be differences in the demographics themselves.

If women don't participate in numbers matching their population percentage, there could be reasons other than Privileged, Misogynistic Patriarchy.  Since most people here have one or more women at their normal gaming table, Green Ronin's argument would seem to suggest that for every woman at their table, there are two more that are willing, but afraid to enter the hobby without being given safe spaces and preferential hiring practices.

Horseshit.

Except female players make up between 60% and 84% of my latest gaming groups, most of them new to the hobby.
Those numbers are in line with what people here claim is their share in reading books, so I suspect these are the "natural" numbers we could be looking at. But it definitely takes a slightly different approach to get them to even try, IME, just like it takes a slightly different approach for a male fan of classical SF and a male anime fan.

Quote from: Spinachcat;957849The retcon of gaming history has been SJW bullshit that females have not been present in gaming because of how unsafe they feel. Their RPG rape culture delusions have become unassailable canon truth in many corners.

Except its a crock of shit.

Every time someone who gamed in the early days of the hobby talks about the presence of women or teen girls as active hobbyists, its quickly dismissed ad nauseum because it doesn't fit the SJW anti-male narrative.
 
The value of the Chaosium playtester list (or the Judges Guild team pics) is hard evidence from the actual time exists that shows the "no women in gaming" narrative to be a lie.

Women have been a part of RPG history since the earliest days. They were welcome at tables across the country long before grrl power became a marketing device.

I wonder why its so much more important that women are underpresented in the rpg hobby than say, men are underrepresentedi in for example, scrapbooking circles or book clubs*? And yeah, some groups did and probably do shun the "wrong" gender in all hobbies. Some people are assholes and well, some times men and women want to be segregated. If a group of guys see D and D night as "guy's night" or a group of women sees book club as Ladies Night, that's fine as far as I'm concerned. Nothing is going to be 100 percent "equal" and acceptance into private groups is never guaranteed.


It doesn't prove there is some inherent and systemic discrimination about the perceived under representation of women in rpgs vs gender imbalances in other past times? For that matter, why is the concern so focused on gender? I see more blacks playing rpgs (and reading comics and other "geek" hobbies) now than when I started but its not proportional.

If it was totally up to me, then Green Ronin could hire whoever they want, rip out all the men's rooms in their offices and instate mandatory genital checks to get through the front door. But if there's going to be laws about such things then they should be applied unilaterally not on a case by case basis driven by if they discriminate against the "right" target or not.

*speaking from local clubs, most of the privates are all women and few if any men attempt to join them. Public ones such as reading clubs at the library are largely women generally but more diverse.

I would have said that it's because pretty much nobody on this forum gives a flying shit about scrapbooking circles, if I had to venture a guess:D!

And I just asked a friend who is a leading figure in the Bulgarian scrapbooking scene. Her answer was "because most men aren't interested, but some of those that are are among the leading figures in scrapbooking, like Tim Holtz for example".

Quote from: Spinachcat;957849The retcon of gaming history has been SJW bullshit that females have not been present in gaming because of how unsafe they feel. Their RPG rape culture delusions have become unassailable canon truth in many corners.

Except its a crock of shit.

Every time someone who gamed in the early days of the hobby talks about the presence of women or teen girls as active hobbyists, its quickly dismissed ad nauseum because it doesn't fit the SJW anti-male narrative.
 
The value of the Chaosium playtester list (or the Judges Guild team pics) is hard evidence from the actual time exists that shows the "no women in gaming" narrative to be a lie.

Women have been a part of RPG history since the earliest days. They were welcome at tables across the country long before grrl power became a marketing device.

Oh. I see. You're furiously fucking a strawman.

Carry on with your weird kink, then.

Quote from: AsenRG;957905I would have said that it's because pretty much nobody on this forum gives a flying shit about scrapbooking circles, if I had to venture a guess:D!

That would be a fine answer if I were just talking about this forum instead of overall reactions to gender imbalances in hobbies (and other matters).

QuoteAnd I just asked a friend who is a leading figure in the Bulgarian scrapbooking scene. Her answer was "because most men aren't interested, but some of those that are are among the leading figures in scrapbooking, like Tim Holtz for example".

Exactly. Perhaps most women aren't interested in table top rpgs at the moment. My question wasn't "why aren't they?" but "Why is it so important that the raw numbers aren't even?" There are women involved in the hobby, some are well known figures. Anecdotally some of the best players and gms I've had the pleasure of sharing a table with have been women. They've taught a thing or two. But no, there isn't a proportional gender parity but I'm wondering why so many seem upset by that fact alone assuming it means there is some sexist motive behind it not just didn't degrees of interest manifesting.

It reminds me of the reaction to those Adult Coloring books a little while ago, the outrage that the marketing seem to target women since it was insulting to suggest that women would be "pacified" by such a childish/childlike activity (unlike playing Let's Pretend...). It seemed to me and some women I knew that got into it it was mainly because women would be generally better at it having better fine manual dexterity and perception when it comes to colors and palettes. And generally women tend to prefer more arts/craft hobbies and past times. And to some degree women worry less about appearing soft or "passive" like such a hobby could appear.

Quote from: Nexus;957991That would be a fine answer if I were just talking about this forum instead of overall reactions to gender imbalances in hobbies (and other matters).

But I don't care about other hobbies:).

QuoteExactly. Perhaps most women aren't interested in table top rpgs at the moment.

That's possible. Theoretically.
My experience sure as hell points otherwise, though:p.

And unlike scrapbooking and men, there isn't a general idea that engaging in "let's pretend" makes women less feminine;). Quite the opposite, in fact, it's a popular pastime with young girls, so there's a really large pool of potential female "recruits"!

Quote from: AsenRG;958010But I don't care about other hobbies:).

which would be a fine answer if I were only talking to you.

QuoteThat's possible. Theoretically.
My experience sure as hell points otherwise, though:p.

Which doesn't mean that the current gender imbalance as far as gaming goes is driven by sexism and discrimination in the hobby. IME, less women than men are interested in gaming when asked or are more interested in a different style than many of the male enthusiasts (often something more like what would be dubbed "storygaming" here). But in either case, it doesn't mean the difference is driven by something malicious which was one of my points.

There does seem to be more willingness to accept "maybe guys just don't want to do that" when it comes to other interests. Or more of a general lack of concern about it.

QuoteAnd unlike scrapbooking and men, there isn't a general idea that engaging in "let's pretend" makes women less feminine;). Quite the opposite, in fact, it's a popular pastime with young girls, so there's a really large pool of potential female "recruits"!

I didn't say enjoying gaming made women appear less feminine. I said that enjoying activities like Coloring and Scrapbooking are often perceived as more feminine activities so are generally marketed to women rather than the assumed sexist motivation in case of Adult coloring books that only women would be simple minded enough to enjoy them.

I think you're missing my point which is the fact less women than men currently interested in rpgs isn't automatically the sign of some kind of discrimination in he hobby, its fans or the industry that drives it. There may be other factors. I find it puzzling that similar or greater gender imbalances in other hobbies don't seem to cause as much distress or even outrage and offense as the difference in rpgs. Its like there is a moral imperative that more women be "recruited".

It would be nice if more were more women (and, IMO, blacks) into gaming and the number seems to be increasing. I'm simply not sure the reasons there is not exact gender parity are as sinister and hostile as often put fourth or there is some great urgency that exact parity or some vague "fair" balance be reached. If generally less women want to game, IMO, that's fine as long as the ones that do find an open and receptive crowd to join in.