TheRPGSite

Greetings all -

Longtime lurker, first time poster here -  I was looking for some information and I'm hoping the group can help me.

I'm a long-time fan of call of Cthulhu, having purchased a handful of supplements here and there over the years. But never have had the opportunity to play.  Now that my group is ready to give it a go, I'd like to try running it.

My problem is I've heard a lot about the "Wokeness" of the new version and I'd like to try to avoid that at all costs.  I'm just looking for a good story and some easy beginner adventures that would fit well with our group. We're not really into the social justice movement and would just like to concentrate on telling our own stories and having fun. All that other stuff just gets in the way as far as we're concerned.  That might be all well and good for others out there, and I'm not knocking anybody for that, but it's not for us. To each their own you know.

So can anybody tell me what would be the best books and supplements to avoid for New Cthulhu? How far back do I need to go in order to play a game that is not tainted with the new agenda?  Thank you very much for your help in advance.

Aztecman

I have a rune-tattoo-covered Odinist ex-military type about to run some 7e Cthulu for me & co, will let you know what he comes up with! :D

Quote from: aztecman;1113549Greetings all -

Longtime lurker, first time poster here -  I was looking for some information and I'm hoping the group can help me.

I'm a long-time fan of call of Cthulhu, having purchased a handful of supplements here and there over the years. But never have had the opportunity to play.  Now that my group is ready to give it a go, I'd like to try running it.

My problem is I've heard a lot about the "Wokeness" of the new version and I'd like to try to avoid that at all costs.  I'm just looking for a good story and some easy beginner adventures that would fit well with our group. We're not really into the social justice movement and would just like to concentrate on telling our own stories and having fun. All that other stuff just gets in the way as far as we're concerned.  That might be all well and good for others out there, and I'm not knocking anybody for that, but it's not for us. To each their own you know.

So can anybody tell me what would be the best books and supplements to avoid for New Cthulhu? How far back do I need to go in order to play a game that is not tainted with the new agenda?  Thank you very much for your help in advance.

Aztecman

LMAO
Are you serious? Because this reads like delicious satire...

Quote from: aztecman;1113549How far back do I need to go in order to play a game that is not tainted with the new agenda?  Thank you very much for your help in advance.

Aztecman

Pretty much anything published before 2012 should be fine.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1113556Pretty much anything published before 2012 should be fine.

Ok, very good then, that's good to know. Is the newest version of the Masks of Nyarlathotep boxed set ok or should I stick to the original version?

Quote from: aztecman;1113568Ok, very good then, that's good to know. Is the newest version of the Masks of Nyarlathotep boxed set ok or should I stick to the original version?

I've got the pdf of the new version (I'm assuming you mean the recent "deluxe" edition). It's fine and has some nice full color art. But if you've got any post 1996 printing, that will serve just as well. They added a ton of extra bulk - I think it's nearly 3 times the page count of my 1996 version - without adding all that much to the campaign. The major addition is a new "prequel" chapter in Peru where the investigators meet Jackson Elias.

Aztecman! Welcome aboard! Definitely post more!

Pre-2012 product is decent demarcation point, but I'd go earlier. CoC is an odd beast in that very little changed in its early editions so any pre-2000 "edition" is nigh-identical. If you want to avoid "Woke-thulhu" (btw, that's very cool), skip anything Chaosium has been selling because those asswipes don't deserve your time or money.

Also, here's the BEST CoC supplement. It's Silent Legions by Kevin Crawford.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions

Quote from: Dimitrios;1113571I've got the pdf of the new version (I'm assuming you mean the recent "deluxe" edition). It's fine and has some nice full color art. But if you've got any post 1996 printing, that will serve just as well. They added a ton of extra bulk - I think it's nearly 3 times the page count of my 1996 version - without adding all that much to the campaign. The major addition is a new "prequel" chapter in Peru where the investigators meet Jackson Elias.

I saw that, it's tempting for sure. I just didn't want to drop alot of money on it if there's content in it that's part of the Nu-Chaosium mindset. I do have access to a copy of the original version, but the newest one is greatly expanded. The prop kit from http://www.hplhs.org/ is also very impressive.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1113584Aztecman! Welcome aboard! Definitely post more!

Pre-2012 product is decent demarcation point, but I'd go earlier. CoC is an odd beast in that very little changed in its early editions so any pre-2000 "edition" is nigh-identical. If you want to avoid "Woke-thulhu" (btw, that's very cool), skip anything Chaosium has been selling because those asswipes don't deserve your time or money.

Also, here's the BEST CoC supplement. It's Silent Legions by Kevin Crawford.
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/145769/Silent-Legions

Spinachcat - So you think COC 5th edition is ok? that's the current version I have now. Yes, I am very careful about giving my money to companies nowadays. I can't justify paying to support their agenda. Others might, (and that's fine for them) but I'd rather pay for content I enjoy.

I've heard about Silent Legions, I just may have to pick that up! Are there any supplements or just the one book?

Honestely, the current CoC 7E products are not much different to the earlier stuff, except mainly in production value and illustration colour (a bit too colourful at times).

No one's gonna go marching at a protest rally after playing C7oC 7E.

I wonder if Woke-thulhu is just a natural result of one too many failed san checks from producing too much Cthulhu?

Other side effects may include drinking too much soy, colouring your hair fluorescent pink and thinking that there are more then two genders.

5th edition is a solid edition. If my 2nd and 3rd edition books vanished, I'd be happy with 5th and I probably wouldn't even notice any differences. The early editions of CoC were basically the Core Game + added resources, so my 3rd edition is just my 2nd edition with some more goodies like adventures, monsters and magic. 5th is the same thing.

As for Silent Legions, there is only the core book, but its freaking amazing with ideas to support creating your own Mythos campaign and even if you never use the OSR system in the book, the random tables are made of gold for CoC.

My group is 6 sessions into the new Masks of Nyarlathotep, and we are having a blast with it. This is our first CoC game, and I can't comment on previous editions or other adventures. I've got my hands full with this. We also are just regular gamers, not particularly interested in identity politics.

I gather there were a few race swaps from the previous version, but I've been playing it 100% by the book (with one exception, see below) and haven't had any problems and nothing has seemed jarringly out of place.

I know, you read some of these posts and can't help but think the game is a bunch of oppression olympians smashing the patriarchy with the horror element taking the back seat. It's not like that. You are shooting at and allying with people of all types. They might mention the racism present in 1920 but really, they aren't lying about it.

The handouts/props from the newer set really add quite a bit to the game and should be a consideration, so the players can make a "crazy wall" and try to make sense of the clues and decide what to do next. I've seen there are some more extensive third party sets that you could also use with older versions, so that can be an option to.

The included pregenerated characters are the only thing I haven't used, as they don't appear to have been generated "normally" and aren't balanced, with a few Lovecraftian Superheroes in there. Fighting over who got to be Caramon was acceptable in 1985 but nowadays I expect balanced characters, or at least something a little less blatant. I just made some new pregens for it using the standard rules and that problem was solved.

So I would say the social justice content is pretty low, but higher than zero. If you are a zealot who is going to rage about the less than zero, maybe try the excellent Delta Green instead. I would give Masks 2 thumbs up, way up even.

Hey kids, the new sandwich everybody loves only has a little shit shoved into it and you can always eat around that part!! So it's not really a shit sandwich, just a delicious meal with just a wee tad of fresh poop inside. You'll hardly notice the smell if you hold your nose!

Fuck Chaosium.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1113602Hey kids, the new sandwich everybody loves only has a little shit shoved into it and you can always eat around that part!! So it's not really a shit sandwich, just a delicious meal with just a wee tad of fresh poop inside. You'll hardly notice the smell if you hold your nose!

Fuck Chaosium.

Sir, does this mean Ann Margaret is not coming?

Hanoi Jane would love Nu-Chaosium.

Quote from: Nihilistic Mind;1113555LMAO
Are you serious? Because this reads like delicious satire...

If only it was. The level of hysteria here sometimes approaches Big Purple levels of silly. But thankfully without the mod-enforced mandatory shunnings.

In August I played in multiple games of Call of Cthulhu at NecronomiCon. All but one used Cthulhu 7. No noticeable wokeness was enforced. Though it was pretty funny when one youngster told me I was using the wrong dice to make my skill roll. I don't think they had ever seen an old-style 20-sided dice used to make a percentile roll.

Quote from: Bren;1113607If only it was. The level of hysteria here sometimes approaches Big Purple levels of silly.

If only it were just hysteria and not company after company being slowly, or not-so-slowly, infested with these SJW idiots who invariably end up being more offensive those of us they are supposedly trying to "defend" than the people they demonize.

As for the RPG and modules. The PDFs are absurdly overpriced. Yes there is some SJW insertions here and there and Lovecraft bashing as is the new fad. But it is usually squirreled away in the stuff they inserted into the modules rather than the module proper. I have 5th ed I believe and it is pretty good. No idea what happened after 5th though.

Quote from: aztecman;1113568Ok, very good then, that's good to know.

Also, check out Stealing Cthulhu. https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/106251/Stealing-Cthulhu
It helps you insert HP Lovecraft stories/themes into your game sessions where most splat-books fail to.

Quote from: Conanist;1113595You are shooting at

If you are shooting in Call of Cthulhu you are already dead.

Could you guys provide concrete examples of wokeness to give some context?

Copied from Gargarth signature:

"Racism has been part of the United States almost since the first white man stepped onto her shores to oppress her indigenous peoples" Call of Cthulhu Starter Set

"All White Americans in the 20s and 30s were so racist that if a fight starts, the white NPCs will focus their attacks on black characters." Pelgrane Press

"A person might be okay with having goldfish in their game, but not be okay with vivid descriptions of their goggly eyes,weird smell, and scaly skin" MonteCook Games

Quote from: Bren;1113607If only it was. The level of hysteria here sometimes approaches Big Purple levels of silly. But thankfully without the mod-enforced mandatory shunnings.

In August I played in multiple games of Call of Cthulhu at NecronomiCon. All but one used Cthulhu 7. No noticeable wokeness was enforced. Though it was pretty funny when one youngster told me I was using the wrong dice to make my skill roll. I don't think they had ever seen an old-style 20-sided dice used to make a percentile roll.

I agree. As I said I have the new version of MoN and haven't noticed much in the way of intrusive wokesterism.

But if people are perhaps excessively sensitive to signs of woke virtue signalling, there's a reason for that. Look at TBP, since you mentioned it. That place didn't go from "message board where people interested in rpgs hang out and talk about rpgs" to "crazytown" overnight. It started small and happened through a long series of incremental steps. Same story with a lot of other things recently.

Quote from: sureshot;1113629Copied from Gargarth signature:

"Racism has been part of the United States almost since the first white man stepped onto her shores to oppress her indigenous peoples" Call of Cthulhu Starter Set

"All White Americans in the 20s and 30s were so racist that if a fight starts, the white NPCs will focus their attacks on black characters." Pelgrane Press

"A person might be okay with having goldfish in their game, but not be okay with vivid descriptions of their goggly eyes,weird smell, and scaly skin" MonteCook Games

Ok, I can see the first two but... what?  Is the third one just because of the possible "triggering" effect or something?  Overall, while yeah, Monte is kinda woke, I really haven't noticed it crop up in the games themselves.  Was that from the completely free, completely optional Consent in Gaming pdf?

Quote from: aztecman;1113585I saw that, it's tempting for sure. I just didn't want to drop alot of money on it if there's content in it that's part of the Nu-Chaosium mindset. I do have access to a copy of the original version, but the newest one is greatly expanded. The prop kit from http://www.hplhs.org/ is also very impressive.

I've only read the first two chapters of Masks 7E.  The new prequel adds little to the campaign:  You (the investigators) get to meet Jackson Elias (instead of being told about your old friend you never before heard of), and fight one or more undead conquistadors.  The kicker?  Jackson Elias is now black.  Interesting complication or irritating wokeness insertion?  Your call.

In Chapter 1, New York, it was originally a bit thin:  Tangle with a low level cult and harvest clues leading to the other scenarios.  Now there is a sub plot about a framed black man facing 1920's justice.  Worthwhile expansion?  Woke interlude?

In At Your Door, the Ran-Tegoth chapter, there are two NPC reinforcements available if needed:  A gay couple.  Plotpoint?  Background?  Tokenism?  Wokeness?  IMO keeper's call.  I see it as - in the battle of your lives against an antediluvian demigod - nobody is going to ask "So...uh...who's usually on top?"

I'm surprised Gagarth hasn't posted in this thread yet with a dozen more examples.

The point is, once you have the game, nobody from Chaosium is going to come to your home and supervise play.  You want Jackson Elias black, white, or a Mi-go meatsuit, it's your call.  Want to explore race relations in the 20's?  Go ahead, or don't.  Having a gay couple investigators?  Same deal, you like - you keep.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1113643I've only read the first two chapters of Masks 7E.  The new prequel adds little to the campaign:  You (the investigators) get to meet Jackson Elias (instead of being told about your old friend you never before heard of), and fight one or more undead conquistadors.  The kicker?  Jackson Elias is now black.  Interesting complication or irritating wokeness insertion?  Your call.

When I ran MoN a loooong time ago, it became a bit of an in-joke among the players about their "good friend" Jackson Elias, who they never interact with and who is dead the first time the see him in-game. When I saw that prequel chapter I though "I guess our group wasn't the only one".

Quote from: sureshot;1113629Copied from Gargarth signature:

"Racism has been part of the United States almost since the first white man stepped onto her shores to oppress her indigenous peoples" Call of Cthulhu Starter Set

"All White Americans in the 20s and 30s were so racist that if a fight starts, the white NPCs will focus their attacks on black characters." Pelgrane Press

"A person might be okay with having goldfish in their game, but not be okay with vivid descriptions of their goggly eyes,weird smell, and scaly skin" MonteCook Games

Those are all insane. Do you have links to the sources I can double check?

#1 completely misunderstands why white colonists, specifically rich white colonists, invented racism. Racism was invented to justify human rights violations by dehumanizing the victims. Although the original reason for it no longer exists, racism still exists as a leftover that causes people to irrationally dehumanize others. I studied this stuff in college before the SJWs took over and it's pretty easy to understand.

#2 is nonsensical unless the fight is motivated by race in the first place.

Have any of the people writing this stuff experienced racism or know someone who has? Because that's not how racism works. This is offensive because it distorts history and trivializes the horrors experienced by oppressed people around the world today.

Quote from: rgalex;1113641Ok, I can see the first two but... what?  Is the third one just because of the possible "triggering" effect or something?  Overall, while yeah, Monte is kinda woke, I really haven't noticed it crop up in the games themselves.  Was that from the completely free, completely optional Consent in Gaming pdf?

Yeah, number #3 makes no sense to me. It is suppose to be code?

I can understand a complaint like "deep ones are really a persecuted minority" because Lovecraft used them as metaphors for non-white people. In fact, the supposedly horrifying twist ending of the story "Medusa's Coil (http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/mc.aspx)" was that the protagonist's ancestor Marceline was a black woman.

The SJW stuff is racist in the opposite direction.

Quote from: Dimitrios;1113640But if people are perhaps excessively sensitive to signs of woke virtue signalling, there's a reason for that.

Sure, just as there are reasons people are excessively sensitive to stuff at TBP. I understand the reasons, I just don't believe the reasons justify the hysteria. On either forum. And while this forum doesn't have the bannings, there has been a steady decline in the RPG useful content here and an increase in these bitch and moan threads. The signal to noise ratio here used to be higher and the political noise used to be confined to Punditry.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1113648#1 completely misunderstands why white colonists, specifically rich white colonists, invented racism. Racism was invented to justify human rights violations by dehumanizing the victims. Although the original reason for it no longer exists, racism still exists as a leftover that causes people to irrationally dehumanize others. I studied this stuff in college before the SJWs took over and it's pretty easy to understand.

... I don't know what you were taught at college, but I promise you, white men in the 1500-1700s did not "invent" racism. Humans have been dividing people into group and other all over the globe for a long, long time.

Now if you want to say some people invented specific manifestations of racism, like specific categorization methods, or pseudo-science like phrenology that was used to justify racism, sure, but the basic underlying failing has been with humanity for a long, long, long time.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1113648#1 completely misunderstands why white colonists, specifically rich white colonists, invented racism. Racism was invented to justify human rights violations by dehumanizing the victims.

While Racism somewhat predates the concept of 'Human Rights' per se, there is a lot of truth in this. Christianity has ideas about treating other humans well, that get in the way of what humans want to do - treating other humans badly. This became a particular problem when the Enlightenment secularised and universalised Christian values as Natural Rights. Racism developed in the 18th & 19th century, especially in the USA, as a way to get around that problem. Most cultures have no problem genociding and enslaving the other guy, but they don't have Racism as such. The first 16th century English colonists in the Americas didn't really have it either yet.

Quote from: S'mon;1113660While Racism somewhat predates the concept of 'Human Rights' per se, there is a lot of truth in this. Christianity has ideas about treating other humans well, that get in the way of what humans want to do - treating other humans badly. This became a particular problem when the Enlightenment secularised and universalised Christian values as Natural Rights. Racism developed in the 18th & 19th century, especially in the USA, as a way to get around that problem. Most cultures have no problem genociding and enslaving the other guy, but they don't have Racism as such. The first 16th century English colonists in the Americas didn't really have it either yet.

I mean... This really feels like splitting some awfully fine hairs, and frankly kind of arrogant. "Other racism isn't really racism, because those cultures are worse than ours. We're so enlightened we had to invent newer, more insidious racism." It's the same basic argument as the whole "I can hate you because of your race, but it's not racism, because you're white and I'm not and SYSTEMS OF OPPRESSION" bullshit that the current generation is dealing with.

Quote from: Bren;1113649Sure, just as there are reasons people are excessively sensitive to stuff at TBP. I understand the reasons, I just don't believe the reasons justify the hysteria. On either forum. And while this forum doesn't have the bannings, there has been a steady decline in the RPG useful content here and an increase in these bitch and moan threads. The signal to noise ratio here used to be higher and the political noise used to be confined to Punditry.

Amen. I thought I was the only one noticing that.

Quote from: S'mon;1113660While Racism somewhat predates the concept of 'Human Rights' per se, there is a lot of truth in this. Christianity has ideas about treating other humans well, that get in the way of what humans want to do - treating other humans badly. This became a particular problem when the Enlightenment secularised and universalised Christian values as Natural Rights. Racism developed in the 18th & 19th century, especially in the USA, as a way to get around that problem. Most cultures have no problem genociding and enslaving the other guy, but they don't have Racism as such. The first 16th century English colonists in the Americas didn't really have it either yet.

Yeah our Racism is so much better quality then the backwards poorly thought out Racism that those other lesser races had.  That is how you can tell we are the superior race because of the quality of our Racism.

Quote from: Bruwulf;1113659... I don't know what you were taught at college, but I promise you, white men in the 1500-1700s did not "invent" racism. Humans have been dividing people into group and other all over the globe for a long, long time.

Now if you want to say some people invented specific manifestations of racism, like specific categorization methods, or pseudo-science like phrenology that was used to justify racism, sure, but the basic underlying failing has been with humanity for a long, long, long time.

Yes, this is what I meant. Racism comes in many manifestations across history, but the one relevant to this specific context is the one used to justify specifically enslaving sub-Saharan Africans and indigenous Americans for the purposes of labor in the New World colonies. Which was enshrined in law, and which still has an annoying pernicious legacy today that continues to disenfranchise people and bar their opportunities.

The sheer gall of these people, saying that it can all be boiled down to white people being inherently evil rather than lucky at the time.

Quote from: rgalex;1113641Ok, I can see the first two but... what?  Is the third one just because of the possible "triggering" effect or something?  Overall, while yeah, Monte is kinda woke, I really haven't noticed it crop up in the games themselves.  Was that from the completely free, completely optional Consent in Gaming pdf?

I never read the Consent in Gaming PDF so I cannot tell you if it is. Even then it is a theme in Shadows overs Innsmouth. Where the residents having intermingled so to speak with Deep Ones have lost their humanity and becoming more fish like. Unless one is playing a resident or descendant of Innmouth I don't see the need for a trigger warning. For fuck sake they arexwaiting for the day when both Dagon and Cthluhu rise to clsim the world. Why would i feel anything both horror and hate id I was pkaying a character in a Lovecraft themed campaign.

@ BoxCrayonTales

I took those quotes from Gargarth signsture if anyone knows the source it is him.

Quote from: Reckall;1113622If you are shooting in Call of Cthulhu you are already dead.

Not really. Guns and such work just fine against cultists and some monsters. Even the Mi-Go can be felled with a bullet. Its the tHiNgS from the really esoteric realms and the bEiNgS running the whole gig that any attempts at combat go right out the window. Sometimes even magic insn't enough and you have to call on some other wHaTzIt to deal with it.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;1113624Could you guys provide concrete examples of wokeness to give some context?

Theres some older threads here that did for Orient Express and I believe the rulebook. Look those up.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;1113643The point is, once you have the game, nobody from Chaosium is going to come to your home and supervise play.

Yet.

But odds are they will try to a cons. If they haven't allready.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1113602Hey kids, the new sandwich everybody loves only has a little shit shoved into it and you can always eat around that part!! So it's not really a shit sandwich, just a delicious meal with just a wee tad of fresh poop inside. You'll hardly notice the smell if you hold your nose!

Fuck Chaosium.

You gotta draw a line somewhere (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/17/health/usda-fecal-matter-in-meat-trnd/index.html).

Quote from: Dimitrios;1113644When I ran MoN a loooong time ago, it became a bit of an in-joke among the players about their "good friend" Jackson Elias, who they never interact with and who is dead the first time the see him in-game. When I saw that prequel chapter I though "I guess our group wasn't the only one".

The assumtion is either the PCs are A: just starting and it makes for a quick bit of background. B: Something an established PC/player can pick up and roll with. C: not jackasses trying to appear Smaht and failing miserably. D: maybee they should be wondering WHY they forgot their friend?

Slightly off topic Not-so-fun-fact.

I learned I had a sister I had never heard of before. And she died about a month after I learned this. I have no idea what she looks like and may never really know as she seems to have avoided photos of herself.

Quote from: Shasarak;1113671Yeah our Racism is so much better quality then the backwards poorly thought out Racism that those other lesser races had.  That is how you can tell we are the superior race because of the quality of our Racism.

Indeed ! :D

Quote from: aztecman;1113549Greetings all -

Longtime lurker, first time poster here -  I was looking for some information and I'm hoping the group can help me.

I'm a long-time fan of call of Cthulhu, having purchased a handful of supplements here and there over the years. But never have had the opportunity to play.  Now that my group is ready to give it a go, I'd like to try running it.

My problem is I've heard a lot about the "Wokeness" of the new version and I'd like to try to avoid that at all costs.  I'm just looking for a good story and some easy beginner adventures that would fit well with our group. We're not really into the social justice movement and would just like to concentrate on telling our own stories and having fun. All that other stuff just gets in the way as far as we're concerned.  That might be all well and good for others out there, and I'm not knocking anybody for that, but it's not for us. To each their own you know.

So can anybody tell me what would be the best books and supplements to avoid for New Cthulhu? How far back do I need to go in order to play a game that is not tainted with the new agenda?  Thank you very much for your help in advance.

Aztecman

Chaosium has made pretty big changes since the 1980s to Lovecraft's pure vision. Not only are people of color playable above a SAN rating of 0, various non-Christian religions aren't automatically a front for Mythos worship.

But on a more serious note: the most popular supplements, such as Harlem Unbound and the Sassoon Files, take place explicitly in non-majority white locales and there's incentive for you to play as PC with ties to the place. Pulp Cthulhu and more than a few adventures have you fighting Nazis as bad guys, which some on this site took issue with for reasons I cannot fathom. (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40664-Chaosium-s-new-campaign-A-Cold-Fire-Within-is-out)

But on the other hand, Tcho-Tcho are still a thing, and a rather large amount of Mythos magic has been invented by Tibetan Buddhists. So you win some, you lose some.

If you're an old-timey Lovecraft purist or believe that Cultural Marxism is prominent in mainstream US politics, you probably want to stay away from CoC.

Quote from: Libertad;1113714Pulp Cthulhu and more than a few adventures have you fighting Nazis as bad guys, which some on this site took issue with for reasons I cannot fathom. (https://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?40664-Chaosium-s-new-campaign-A-Cold-Fire-Within-is-out)

Thanks for sharing that.  It reminds me of the time NPR tweeted the Declaration of Independence (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/npr-declaration-of-independence_n_595c6525e4b0da2c7325bd50) and Trump supporters thought it was a direct attack on them.  

When someone publishes an adventure, it's usually much easier to make all the NPCs white men then to take an adventure that features only white men and make a diverse cast.  Making the adventure 'unwoke' to your standards should be trivial.

Quote from: Omega;1113691Not really. Guns and such work just fine against cultists and some monsters.

Works fine, as in can damage and kill the target, sure. Not so fine if the investigators are acting without government sanction and the campaign includes a risk of arrest and trial as well as the problems associated with disposing of bodies to avoid arrest.

There was absolutely no sign of the Chaosium game police overseeing things at Necronomicon at any of the games my wife or I were in and that included the session run by Sandy Petersen.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1113717Thanks for sharing that.  It reminds me of the time NPR tweeted the Declaration of Independence (https://www.huffpost.com/entry/npr-declaration-of-independence_n_595c6525e4b0da2c7325bd50) and Trump supporters thought it was a direct attack on them.

#makeamericanazifreeagain (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/10/07/even-a-video-games-make-america-nazi-free-again-slogan-ticked-some-people-off/)

On a relevant note, I'd highly recommend Achtung! Cthulhu series (available as a bundle here (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186087/Achtung-Cthulhu-PDF-Lovers-Collection)). You can play as antifa super-soldiers killing fascist mad scientists and frankenzombies running on alien technology. I'd rank it as Peak Wokethulhu or very close to it.

Quote from: Libertad;1113731#makeamericanazifreeagain (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/arts-and-entertainment/wp/2017/10/07/even-a-video-games-make-america-nazi-free-again-slogan-ticked-some-people-off/)

On a relevant note, I'd highly recommend Achtung! Cthulhu series (available as a bundle here (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/186087/Achtung-Cthulhu-PDF-Lovers-Collection)). You can play as antifa super-soldiers killing fascist mad scientists and frankenzombies running on alien technology. I'd rank it as Peak Wokethulhu or very close to it.

I haven't seen anything in A!C about how evil white people are. They do have Nazis without Swastikas, but I don't know if that's Woke or just cringing before the New German Reich.

Quote from: Libertad;1113714If you're an old-timey Lovecraft purist or believe that Cultural Marxism is prominent in mainstream US politics, you probably want to stay away from CoC.

Elizabeth Warren makes a great High Priestess of Shub-Niggurath!

Based on the leaked emails on who's advising our President in the Trump White House as of late, the people who most wanna punch Nazis in this day and age are the same people who'd be decried as soyboy beta-males by /r/the_donald.

To keep it related to CoC gaming, Delta Green has you fight the Kyrotechia, a bunch of Neo-Nazi occultists living in Argentia. A #currentyear setting for that book can totes have you fighting alt-right jerks willing to make pacts with the more violent Mythos entities to realize their mad goal of a white ethnostate. Harlem Unbound had you fight the KKK, but this time they won't be wearing hoods. Can make for some inter-agency rivalry when you have to grapple with the fact that there are those in the executive branch who actually sympathize with their aims and thus wish to stymie your efforts.

Quote from: Libertad;1113735Based on the leaked emails on who's advising our President in the Trump White House as of late, the people who most wanna punch Nazis in this day and age are the same people who'd be decried as soyboy beta-males by /r/the_donald.

I can't see those soyboy beta-males fighting real Nazis. Real Nazis had guns and stuff. The Alpha soyboys like to gang up & attack unarmed people in America who they call Nazis - and who occasionally are Neo-Nazis; but more usually not.

The rest of your post definitely wants to make me run a modern Call of Cthulu campaign investigating Mythos cult activity within the Democratic Party. Ia! Ia! Hillary Fthagn! :p

I remember reading a story where someone who had access to the Necronomicon was essentially holding the American government hostage unless they paid an ransom. Long story short he asked for too much money and was willing to flood the Internet with copies of the book. No deal was reached and both the hackers and his system were taken out by a special "Shoggoth" computer virus. I wish I could remember the title and which anthology it was in.

Quote from: sureshot;1113800I remember reading a story where someone who had access to the Necronomicon was essentially holding the American government hostage unless they paid an ransom. Long story short he asked for too much money and was willing to flood the Internet with copies of the book. No deal was reached and both the hackers and his system were taken out by a special "Shoggoth" computer virus. I wish I could remember the title and which anthology it was in.

That sounds like a solid story!

Quote from: sureshot;1113800I remember reading a story where someone who had access to the Necronomicon was essentially holding the American government hostage unless they paid an ransom. Long story short he asked for too much money and was willing to flood the Internet with copies of the book. No deal was reached and both the hackers and his system were taken out by a special "Shoggoth" computer virus. I wish I could remember the title and which anthology it was in.

Sounds like it fits in with the Laundry stories... did it have funny bits?

Quote from: Libertad;1113735Based on the leaked emails on who's advising our President in the Trump White House as of late, the people who most wanna punch Nazis in this day and age are the same people who'd be decried as soyboy beta-males by /r/the_donald.

Quote from: S'mon;1113761I can't see those soyboy beta-males fighting real Nazis. Real Nazis had guns and stuff. The Alpha soyboys like to gang up & attack unarmed people in America who they call Nazis - and who occasionally are Neo-Nazis; but more usually not.

The rest of your post definitely wants to make me run a modern Call of Cthulu campaign investigating Mythos cult activity within the Democratic Party. Ia! Ia! Hillary Fthagn! :p

I don't really get Achtung Cthulhu. I'm down with having straight shoot-up-the-bad-guy game, but I feel like that doesn't mix with Lovecraft. It's things that really don't go together, I feel. I'm not a purist per se, but it feels shallow and/or overused to have Lovecraft monsters be generic bad guys like Nazis. I think the horror works better when there aren't clear good guys and bad guys.

The last time I ran Call of Cthulhu, the Nazis were part of the alliance against the Deep Ones and other horrors. If there's one thing that nazis hate, it's mixed blood mongrels like Deep Ones.

Quote from: jhkim;1113827I'm down with having straight shoot-up-the-bad-guy game, but I feel like that doesn't mix with Lovecraft. It's things that really don't go together, I feel.

So I guess you are not a fan of Brian Lumley?

Quote from: Bren;1113840So I guess you are not a fan of Brian Lumley?

I haven't read any his works, so no. I'm not opposed to them, and know little about them - but right now they're not up on my priority for reading.

Quote from: jhkim;1113827I don't really get Achtung Cthulhu. I'm down with having straight shoot-up-the-bad-guy game, but I feel like that doesn't mix with Lovecraft. It's things that really don't go together, I feel. I'm not a purist per se, but it feels shallow and/or overused to have Lovecraft monsters be generic bad guys like Nazis. I think the horror works better when there aren't clear good guys and bad guys.

The last time I ran Call of Cthulhu, the Nazis were part of the alliance against the Deep Ones and other horrors. If there's one thing that nazis hate, it's mixed blood mongrels like Deep Ones.

A!C is definitely a pulp game, not a Lovecraftian horror game.
Himmler's paganist esotericism has long provided a rich well for pulp horror tropes from at least the 1970s. A!C seems in that tradition, but there is a certain blandness or offness about the game. Not sure if that's about not causing offence.

Quote from: jhkim;1113844I haven't read any his works, so no. I'm not opposed to them, and know little about them - but right now they're not up on my priority for reading.

I've read Lumley... I thought his stuff was crap. What I read was an attempt at melding E.R.B. he-man adventure tales to H.P.L. mythos... lots of name-dropping of mythos entities in the blandest way possible. He made Derleth look like a master of the macabre. No atmosphere, no tension, no horror.
R.E.H. had a much better go at that sort of thing.

Quote from: Omega;1113618If only it were just hysteria and not company after company being slowly, or not-so-slowly, infested with these SJW idiots who invariably end up being more offensive those of us they are supposedly trying to "defend" than the people they demonize.

If only people on either side of the "Damn, i just want to game"-middle weren't overreacting, or even worse, hounding said middle for things that are a natural part of it, including trends.

Quote from: Simlasa;1113809Sounds like it fits in with the Laundry stories... did it have funny bits?

Definitely not the doomed hacker knew what was happening before he died asked to be given a chance to live and because he refused the initial deal was politely told "sorry sucks to be you". Definitely not anything like the Laundry.

Quote from: Simlasa;1113856I've read Lumley... I thought his stuff was crap. What I read was an attempt at melding E.R.B. he-man adventure tales to H.P.L. mythos... lots of name-dropping of mythos entities in the blandest way possible. He made Derleth look like a master of the macabre. No atmosphere, no tension, no horror.
R.E.H. had a much better go at that sort of thing.

I enjoyed Lumley as Lovecraft constant nihilism gets truly annoying in his stories. We get we are doomed why not go out fighting as opposed to just doom and gloom. That being said Lumley does definitely do the writers equivalent of  phoning it in for the series.

Quote from: jhkim;1113827I don't really get Achtung Cthulhu. I'm down with having straight shoot-up-the-bad-guy game, but I feel like that doesn't mix with Lovecraft. It's things that really don't go together, I feel. I'm not a purist per se, but it feels shallow and/or overused to have Lovecraft monsters be generic bad guys like Nazis. I think the horror works better when there aren't clear good guys and bad guys. .

I think that the vibe you get from the first Hellboy movie is a vibe that people like.  You're basically mixing occult and Nazism, but to answer the question 'what is the occult' you turn to Mythos stuff for flavor.  If you strip out the mythos stuff and put in Christian theology you get Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Having a defined bad guy appeals to a lot of players.  If you've heard anyone in fantasy say 'I just want to kill orcs' I think you can understand the appeal of having bad guys that are part of something so criminally evil that even if they're individually likable, you don't have to feel bad about shooting them dead.

Quote from: Catelf;1113857If only people on either side of the "Damn, i just want to game"-middle weren't overreacting, or even worse, hounding said middle for things that are a natural part of it, including trends.

It's funny to me that people keep bringing this up.  If you 'just want to game', just do it.  Don't stop the game every time a gay-gnome of color pops up.  Demanding that published modules cater to your extremely narrow tastes to avoid any hint of 'wokeness' is political and is annoying.  A gay paladin character is interesting; if you don't think so make him straight or gender-swap him and in 3 seconds your game isn't going to intrude on your sensibilities.

Quote from: jhkim;1113827I don't really get Achtung Cthulhu. I'm down with having straight shoot-up-the-bad-guy game, but I feel like that doesn't mix with Lovecraft. It's things that really don't go together, I feel. I'm not a purist per se, but it feels shallow and/or overused to have Lovecraft monsters be generic bad guys like Nazis. I think the horror works better when there aren't clear good guys and bad guys.

The last time I ran Call of Cthulhu, the Nazis were part of the alliance against the Deep Ones and other horrors. If there's one thing that nazis hate, it's mixed blood mongrels like Deep Ones.

Have you read World War Cthulhu? It's a more... down to earth take on Lovecraft in WW2, erring much closer to Delta Green. The Mythos and it's tendrils are, as ever, slithering about... it just so happens World War 2 is occurring. Investigators in the field will be opposing the Nazis and Mythos, but often the missions are mutually exclusive, as opposed to always fighting Stupid Tentacle Hitler(tm).

I'm not a fan of A!C's pulp nature, but at least it doesn't pretend to be anything but.

Quote from: Snark Knight;1113897Stupid Tentacle Hitler(tm)

Harem anime gets weirder every year.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1113900Harem anime gets weirder every year.

Boy do I have a game for you... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng18p-88C-g)

Quote from: Snark Knight;1113901Boy do I have a game for you... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng18p-88C-g)

LOL :p What a time to be alive!

Quote from: sureshot;1113878I enjoyed Lumley as Lovecraft constant nihilism gets truly annoying in his stories. We get we are doomed why not go out fighting as opposed to just doom and gloom. That being said Lumley does definitely do the writers equivalent of  phoning it in for the series.

Well if one wants protagonists who use .50 machinguns to take down Mythos horrors, then Lumley is the go-to author.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;1113888I think that the vibe you get from the first Hellboy movie is a vibe that people like.  You're basically mixing occult and Nazism, but to answer the question 'what is the occult' you turn to Mythos stuff for flavor.

If I try to fit these things on a continuum.

In Lovecraft (and authors who stick close to the same tone), the reader knows (or will soon know after reading a few stories) that ultimately humanity cannot win and anything the heroes do is, at best, a short term delay in things becoming unimaginably worse. And that magic and artifacts are dangerous and the mere attempt to confront and understand these horrors and delay the inevitable is damaging to a hero's psyche and sanity. Always looming is the knowledge that one day the stars will be right and Cthulhu will awaken and the Old Ones will extinguish humanity and anything approaching life as we know it.

In Lumley, the reader knows (or will soon know after the first novel or two) that learning and magic makes the heroes more capable and powerful, thereby ensuring that the brave heroes will certainly triumph in the end.

The tone in Hellboy is in between the two. The reader knows (or will soon know) that there are bad things that go bump in the night and that the BPRD is there to bump back. In each story the heroes eventually defeat or delay the threat they encounter - but agents will die in the process. Knowledge and magic is useful and mostly safe to acquire. But ultimate victory is not assured...and may not even be possible. The cosmos may be one where humanity is ultimately doomed to failure (like Lovecraft's), especially if Hellboy cannot overcome his fate. As the reader, we just don't know.

Quote from: Bren;1113727Works fine, as in can damage and kill the target, sure. Not so fine if the investigators are acting without government sanction and the campaign includes a risk of arrest and trial as well as the problems associated with disposing of bodies to avoid arrest.

I said the guns work fine. If the people using them are missing a few SAN point then that is no fault of the gun. :cool: probably... :eek:

Quote from: Catelf;1113857If only people on either side of the "Damn, i just want to game"-middle weren't overreacting, or even worse, hounding said middle for things that are a natural part of it, including trends.

This problem goes back at least to the 90s which is why I say its cyclic. Because it is. You see a "movement" to "clean up the media" usually with the added battlecry of "So the mainstream will respect us!"
It usually starts with simple demands. But then invariably escalates to ever increasingly insane demands. Eventually theres resistance and pushback. Usually over the top pushback because people get sick and tired of being attacked and accused of the most lunatic things.

Now toss in a program by these "moral guardians" to infiltrate, subvert, co-opt and/or destroy neutral or opposition groups. Especially neutral groups. Usually by somehow gaining a staff position.

And I've seen this way the hell too much

And to keep this on topic. Ive seen several act way the hell too much like a Lovecraftian cult spreading like some sort of communicable mental disease. And not just online.

Quote from: Antiquation!;1113900Harem anime gets weirder every year.

Bemusingly there IS a harem anime allready about a guy who ends up saddled with an ever increasing number of eldritch horrors disguised as schoolgirls. Haiyore! Nyaruko: Remember My Mr. Lovecraft. Originally a light novel series.

Quote from: Omega;1113965Bemusingly there IS a harem anime allready about a guy who ends up saddled with an ever increasing number of eldritch horrors disguised as schoolgirls. Haiyore! Nyaruko: Remember My Mr. Lovecraft. Originally a light novel series.

Ha, it figures! The obsession with "monstergirls" in general has seemingly reached a peak high, so long as 4chan can be considered valid reference material anyway... :p

Quote from: aztecman;1113568Ok, very good then, that's good to know. Is the newest version of the Masks of Nyarlathotep boxed set ok or should I stick to the original version?

I am at best an intermediate Keeper but if this is your first go around with CoC you might consider letting your players get the feel of the game via some short scenarios as Masks is a beast that will take a really LONG time to go through. Two free scenarios that are introductory yet fun are The Haunting and Edge of Darkness. The Haunting in particular has loads of fan made resources available for it and there is loads of advice on the web for running it. You might also consider joining //www.yog-sothoth.com as it is the place to go for Cthulhu resources. Note you do have to sign up to download anything but it doesn't put you on a mailing list or anything.

Quote from: Bren;1113607If only it was. The level of hysteria here sometimes approaches Big Purple levels of silly.

It's an open question whether the Conservative Justice Warrior or the Social Justice Warrior has higher levels of butthurt. Of course neither approach the lonely loser status of the Bitter Non-Gamer, or the storygamer.

The words of Jesse Ventura come to mind.

The 1st edition of games is usually the best one. Certainly anything beyond a 3rd edition is a mess one way or another. Of course, much the same applies to movies and novels.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;1114069It's an open question whether the Conservative Justice Warrior or the Social Justice Warrior has higher levels of butthurt. Of course neither approach the lonely loser status of the Bitter Non-Gamer, or the storygamer.

The words of Jesse Ventura come to mind.

The 1st edition of games is usually the best one. Certainly anything beyond a 3rd edition is a mess one way or another. Of course, much the same applies to movies and novels.

I'm looking for something to strongly disagree with...

Quote from: CanBeOnlyOne;1114015I am at best an intermediate Keeper but if this is your first go around with CoC you might consider letting your players get the feel of the game via some short scenarios as Masks is a beast that will take a really LONG time to go through. Two free scenarios that are introductory yet fun are The Haunting and Edge of Darkness. The Haunting in particular has loads of fan made resources available for it and there is loads of advice on the web for running it. You might also consider joining //www.yog-sothoth.com as it is the place to go for Cthulhu resources. Note you do have to sign up to download anything but it doesn't put you on a mailing list or anything.

Oh I wasn't planning on running Masks just yet. That was for my own personal purchase. I'll definitely be using an introductory adventure for the first few games. I'll also check out yog-sothoth.com for resources, thanks for the suggestion!

Aztecman

Please remember to keep this on-topic.

Also, if you want a version of CoC that isn't full of wokeness, check out Raiders of R'lyeh!

Quote from: RPGPundit;1114534Please remember to keep this on-topic.

Also, if you want a version of CoC that isn't full of wokeness, check out Raiders of R'lyeh!

Or older editions of Call of Cthulhu. Mine has a map of Arkham by Gahan Wilson. Who was the one who got me interested in the game in the first place.

I know Delta Green has already been mentioned but i always saw them as non woke. And its good old lovercraftian horror in a modern package. They just dropped a new pdf supplement called The Labyrinth and it looks quite good(havent read it, the prices they have are killer).

Quote from: Warder;1114613I know Delta Green has already been mentioned but i always saw them as non woke. And its good old lovercraftian horror in a modern package. They just dropped a new pdf supplement called The Labyrinth and it looks quite good(havent read it, the prices they have are killer).

Unfortunately DG is published by a company that can and will treat its customers like dirt. After seeing this no less than twice at GenCon I stopped buying their stuff.

20$ for the KS PDF and 45$ for the hardcover seems a little steep. But they probably lack the printing connections some other companies have. That is not even factoring in shipping. Which for international KS projects can be messy. YMMV.

Quote from: Omega;1114641Unfortunately DG is published by a company that can and will treat its customers like dirt. After seeing this no less than twice at GenCon I stopped buying their stuff.

Please elaborate for the ignorant (see: me).

Quote from: Snark Knight;1114728Please elaborate for the ignorant (see: me).

Two people I know commented that when they were trying to buy stuff from then that they were treated poorly and one got ripped off on the price. I ran into it as well later and not only were the staff surly, they wouldn't even sell the book I was wanting to pick up to me. Probably one of the biggest WTF??? moments. I bumped into maybee two or three others who mentioned bad behavior from them as well. But these were folk I did not know. There was a thread on it many a year ago over on RPG.net. Others, of course, had no problem at all. Totally baffling.

Silent Legions can easily do Delta Green, especially if you grab military tech bits out of Stars Without Number.

Quote from: Spinachcat;1115179Silent Legions can easily do Delta Green, especially if you grab military tech bits out of Stars Without Number.

Thank you for your contribution but we are not being productive here. Please redirect yourself.