The woke crowd are deluded about D&D, but some hardcore grognards have delusions of their own; and not being able to see reality makes you less useful.
#dnd #ttrpg #osr
All hail Meatball!!
Quote from: Spinachcat on March 03, 2024, 12:14:36 AM
All hail Meatball!!
Spread the Meatball, share the video! I especially love that the thumbnail for the video caught her licking her nose.
In the vast majority of my campaigns. orcs are very racist. They tend to attack elves & dwarves just because they are elves & dwarves! Can you believe that? :P
As far as the 1E vs 5E slap fight goes, I honestly don't see the point. I don't choose what to play based on sales or popularity. As Wayne Campbell said " Led Zepplin didn't make songs everybody liked. They left that to the Bee Gees". I still play OD&D, B/X, AD&D, 5E or whatever else seems like fun. The only relevant factor when deciding what to play is-does it sound like it will be fun & enjoyable? If the answer is yes then lets play!
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 03, 2024, 10:31:45 AMThey left that to the Bee Gees".
There's a backhanded compliment.
The difference is that once the astroturfed rebellion against Disco died down, which had caused a lot of people to hate on the Bee Gee's because that was immensely popular, Bee Gee's songs hold up really well and are still enjoyed. I don't see 5e getting a lot of play in decades to come, except from nostalgia.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 03, 2024, 10:51:28 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 03, 2024, 10:31:45 AMThey left that to the Bee Gees".
There's a backhanded compliment.
The difference is that once the astroturfed rebellion against Disco died down, which had caused a lot of people to hate on the Bee Gee's because that was immensely popular, Bee Gee's songs hold up really well and are still enjoyed. I don't see 5e getting a lot of play in decades to come, except from nostalgia.
Oh I don't hate the Bee Gees. I still listen to them even though they are not considered 'cool' anymore.
LOL @ Bee Gees to 5th edition comparison...Bee Gees are literally one of the greatest bands ever, they just got hated on because it was cool to hate disco. That's it. Then they just started writing songs for everyone else that became insanely popular. LZ is the best rock 'n roll band of all time, but they stole most of their stuff from poor blues men, just like TSR and Arneson!
To address the original point, you're dealing with people who hate old white men, but like the structure they created because it allows them to act out their furry fantasies. And the grognards are "misremembering" a lot of things because they cannot admit ANY sort of improvements have been made in RPGs. I think the ascending AC thing is a prime example of that. Yeah, I like descending with a table, whatever, but when I am drunk and just want to play, Castles and Crusades has a brain-dead easy combat system that can be run by a retarded monkey. Now, the table is BETTER for certain wargames situations, for sure. But not for RPGs as are legitimately played, to be honest.
There needs to be a lot more Rodney King instead of Don King at this point.
You can never have enough Don King. He's the most splendifferous man that's ever been invented.
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Don_King_by_Gage_Skidmore.jpg/800px-Don_King_by_Gage_Skidmore.jpg)
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 03, 2024, 10:51:28 AM
I don't see 5e getting a lot of play in decades to come, except from nostalgia.
I agree with Pundit that 5e is a very good system which originally had very broad appeal. I think it will be played nostalgically manyybe years from now. Maybe not as much as 1e (but close), but more than 2e.
Just to point out, I was the one that brought up the 1E PHB had 17 printings. I did not say 5E was trash or that everything after 1E was wrong and that the games rules should have remained entirely static. Those are strawman arguments. But its not JUST the Player's Handbook we're talking about. How many copies of The Radiant Citadel have been sold? Fizban's Treasury of Dragons? Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes? And I would point out that 1E continues selling to this day. If we're comparing apples to apples, then pdfs of Oriental Adventures, Greyhawk Adventures and other 1E books count just as much.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 03, 2024, 03:52:38 PM
Just to point out, I was the one that brought up the 1E PHB had 17 printings. I did not say 5E was trash or that everything after 1E was wrong and that the games rules should have remained entirely static. Those are strawman arguments. But its not JUST the Player's Handbook we're talking about. How many copies of The Radiant Citadel have been sold? Fizban's Treasury of Dragons? Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes? And I would point out that 1E continues selling to this day. If we're comparing apples to apples, then pdfs of Oriental Adventures, Greyhawk Adventures and other 1E books count just as much.
Every edition (except 4th) had good and bad supplements. The main difference with 5e is that over the last couple of years it's had nothing but awful supplements, not because of the system, but because of the Woke trash who took over WotC.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 03, 2024, 07:55:10 PMEvery edition (except 4th) had good and bad supplements. The main difference with 5e is that over the last couple of years it's had nothing but awful supplements, not because of the system, but because of the Woke trash who took over WotC.
Sadly too true. And yes, every campaign of 5E I played in lasted maybe 6 maybe 7 sessions with 1 exception which lasted close to a year. But that sole exception was it, out of roughly 8 campaigns I played. One of the few real flaws of 5E is that they removed the incentive for adventuring: treasure. There is no hook for players because its not Heroic Fantasy ala
Lord of the Rings. Why would anyone risk their neck for little to no reward?
On the other hand, what I've found is that when 1gp=1xp, you end up having characters having tens of thousands of gold pieces, vastly more than anything they need to buy on the equipment list, after relatively short time.
In my game, Lion & Dragon, xp is not tied to either combat or treasure, and yet there's good amounts of both being pursued by the players in every campaign I've run.
I have a strong suspicion that some portion of the 1E sales, past and present, has to do with books falling apart. There was a lot more wear and tear on TSR era books because you didn't have people looking up rules on some kind of digital database. Another slice of sales is replacement of books that were lost or misplaced. We're not comparing apples to apples.
Sales are sales, but a guy replacing his D&D books that he threw out when he moved to Dallas 20 years ago isn't the same as a 5E player seeing the light and switching 1E because it's the best edition ever.
Quote from: Corolinth on March 04, 2024, 07:26:35 AM
Sales are sales, but a guy replacing his D&D books that he threw out when he moved to Dallas 20 years ago isn't the same as a 5E player seeing the light and switching 1E because it's the best edition ever.
OK, but as you say "sales are sales".
If the Brave New World we live in dispenses with the need to ever replace a worn out book, then the business model had better keep up.
You have to sell
something to make a profit. If 5e isn't selling "replacement books" like 1e, then it's on 5e to
be the better edition in order to maintain sales.
Quote from: Corolinth on March 04, 2024, 07:26:35 AM
I have a strong suspicion that some portion of the 1E sales, past and present, has to do with books falling apart. There was a lot more wear and tear on TSR era books because you didn't have people looking up rules on some kind of digital database. Another slice of sales is replacement of books that were lost or misplaced. We're not comparing apples to apples.
Sales are sales, but a guy replacing his D&D books that he threw out when he moved to Dallas 20 years ago isn't the same as a 5E player seeing the light and switching 1E because it's the best edition ever.
UA fell apart right away. The original runs of the PHB, DMG, & MM were constructed of pure iron and mine have held up very well and I have moved 8 times since I got them. Those old 1E books are solid as hell.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2024, 07:02:30 AMOn the other hand, what I've found is that when 1gp=1xp, you end up having characters having tens of thousands of gold pieces, vastly more than anything they need to buy on the equipment list, after relatively short time.
Heh, I suggested elsewhere going instead with 1cp = 1XP, with a breakdown as such (based on Decipher's
Lord of the Rings RPG)
1 GP = 4gp = 16SP = 64sp = 6400cp (GP = Gold Piece, gp = Gold Penny, SP = Silver Piece, sp = Silver Penny, cp = Copper Penny)
All equipment is generally valued in Silver Pieces instead of Gold Pieces. Even with tens of thousands of copper, you're still looking at not that much gold. You can also introduce regional inflation (like was done in
LotR RPG), so that equipment costs are higher in certain places compared to others. And so on and so forth to create (sort of) credible money sinks.
Quote from: Corolinth on March 04, 2024, 07:26:35 AM
I have a strong suspicion that some portion of the 1E sales, past and present, has to do with books falling apart. There was a lot more wear and tear on TSR era books because you didn't have people looking up rules on some kind of digital database. Another slice of sales is replacement of books that were lost or misplaced. We're not comparing apples to apples.
Sales are sales, but a guy replacing his D&D books that he threw out when he moved to Dallas 20 years ago isn't the same as a 5E player seeing the light and switching 1E because it's the best edition ever.
I used to look up rules all the time in my AD&D DM guide and Player's Handbook. I still have them to this day and they are 43 years old.
My 5e Player's handbook fell apart in 6 months and I sleeved the pages and put it in a binder. Same thing happened to my monster manual. I mostly use .pdf's on my phone now.
The 5 e books are crap quality and fall apart really easy. And it doesn't take much searching to find a .pdf scan that you can get for free (ARRR!).
The takeaway was never "orcs are racist" but that gamers, and game designers, harbor implicit viewpoints, some of which are racist, and some of which influence how they portray orcs. An orc isn't anything, it's a fantasy archetype that has been represented so many different ways, an orc could be anything. Tolkien represented orcs primarily as militant authoritarians. D&D 3e presents them as raging barbarians. WoW depicts them as noble savages / honorable warrior guys, and also as minions and shock troops.
There were almost no gold coins in the middle ages.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 03, 2024, 10:51:28 AMI don't see 5e getting a lot of play in decades to come, except from nostalgia.
I think that 5e will live on out of pure spite against wotc for a long long time. Its not a bad system once you fix the flaws in lazy design. It appeals to alot of people who were disillusioned with 3 and 4e and the recurring stupid of the OSR.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 06, 2024, 02:43:04 AMThere were almost no gold coins in the middle ages.
Right. Most would have been Byzantine coins and even then they hoarded them. Which is why I keep suggesting a Silver currency instead. The Silver Piece (Shilling) and Silver Penny (Farthing) should be $100 and $20 equivalents.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 06, 2024, 07:14:01 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 06, 2024, 02:43:04 AMThere were almost no gold coins in the middle ages.
Right. Most would have been Byzantine coins and even then they hoarded them. Which is why I keep suggesting a Silver currency instead. The Silver Piece (Shilling) and Silver Penny (Farthing) should be $100 and $20 equivalents.
Perhaps, but then you can't have a hoard reminiscent of Smaug's... because silver (and copper) will corrode with time and finding piles of blackened silver doesn't have anywhere near the minds-eye visual appeal of piles of still-glittering gold.
If you're not shooting for medieval realism, you could just say that gold is exceptionally common in your fantasy world, or that gems/rupees could be the coin of the realm (because piles of glittering gems also satisfy that "riches beyond counting" desire).
Heck, you could value everything in "ct" where 1ct is the value of some 1 carot gemstone. They were crafted by the master-jeweler's of the Dwarven Realm, each with the Realm's seal etched into the face facet making them almost impossible to forge and though the Dwarven Realm has long ago fallen, it's nigh-indestructible coinage has endured as the medium of exchange in the Successor Kingdoms.
Quote from: Chris24601 on March 06, 2024, 08:47:59 AMHeck, you could value everything in "ct" where 1ct is the value of some 1 carot gemstone.
Raiding the Dragon's hoard
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61MD2sN43HL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2024, 07:02:30 AM
On the other hand, what I've found is that when 1gp=1xp, you end up having characters having tens of thousands of gold pieces, vastly more than anything they need to buy on the equipment list, after relatively short time.
Only if you don't give out XP for the GP equivalent value for magic items. If you did, finding a single +1 sword or five healing potions would be enough to get a fighter to second level. Combine this with the original rule where you get 100xp per hit die of monsters slain and the need for the players to find actual cash disappears.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 06, 2024, 02:43:04 AM
There were almost no gold coins in the middle ages.
Silver and Copper were the coins of the realm. A handful of Silver coins could finance a good weekend in town. Silver was valuable currency.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 06, 2024, 02:43:04 AM
There were almost no gold coins in the middle ages.
Yeah, but D&D is not the middle ages.
And the AD&D coinage system was almost literally the British currency system. 1 gold sovereign = 20 silver shillings. Or heck, even the 1800s US currency, 1 silver dollar = 1 double gold eagle.
Well, part of this is building a more credible D&D economy. Between the Medieval Price List that was compiled years ago and maybe some other sources like HârnMaster, Lion and Dragon, etc.
I think that players should have SOME sort of wealth outside of adventuring to represent the day-to-day expenses they have to pay (otherwise, they're basically shiftless vagabonds). Dungeons & Dragons was predicated on the idea that players weren't your average slob, they were of gentle birth (not necessarily the kind to inherit, though). That was the point of Secondary Skills in 1E/2E AD&D and supposed to be the point of Backgrounds in 5E D&D (not so much in actual play, though).
Quote from: hedgehobbit on March 06, 2024, 10:18:36 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 04, 2024, 07:02:30 AM
On the other hand, what I've found is that when 1gp=1xp, you end up having characters having tens of thousands of gold pieces, vastly more than anything they need to buy on the equipment list, after relatively short time.
Only if you don't give out XP for the GP equivalent value for magic items. If you did, finding a single +1 sword or five healing potions would be enough to get a fighter to second level. Combine this with the original rule where you get 100xp per hit die of monsters slain and the need for the players to find actual cash disappears.
So dump magical items on characters to make up the xp value of gold? I'm not sure that's a better scenario.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 04:26:13 AM
Well, part of this is building a more credible D&D economy. Between the Medieval Price List that was compiled years ago and maybe some other sources like HârnMaster, Lion and Dragon, etc.
I think that players should have SOME sort of wealth outside of adventuring to represent the day-to-day expenses they have to pay (otherwise, they're basically shiftless vagabonds). Dungeons & Dragons was predicated on the idea that players weren't your average slob, they were of gentle birth (not necessarily the kind to inherit, though). That was the point of Secondary Skills in 1E/2E AD&D and supposed to be the point of Backgrounds in 5E D&D (not so much in actual play, though).
What part of murderhobos are you not getting?
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 07, 2024, 08:15:19 AM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 04:26:13 AM
Well, part of this is building a more credible D&D economy. Between the Medieval Price List that was compiled years ago and maybe some other sources like HârnMaster, Lion and Dragon, etc.
I think that players should have SOME sort of wealth outside of adventuring to represent the day-to-day expenses they have to pay (otherwise, they're basically shiftless vagabonds). Dungeons & Dragons was predicated on the idea that players weren't your average slob, they were of gentle birth (not necessarily the kind to inherit, though). That was the point of Secondary Skills in 1E/2E AD&D and supposed to be the point of Backgrounds in 5E D&D (not so much in actual play, though).
What part of murderhobos are you not getting?
Also, not historical Earth. Not even fantastic Earth.
Gold is probably the third most common metal on D&D World after iron and silver (copper isn't even regarded as metal; it's trash you don't even bother to pick up if it's lying on the street and only bother collecting from a dungeon if literally everything else not nailed down has been collected and there's room to spare in the physics-breaking storage device you carry in your pocket).
The continent-sized caverns that descend miles into the earth are full of it (and and silver and gems, especially glowing crystals) if you can fight your way through all the cannibalistic humanoids and monsters guarding it.
Gravity-defying Dragons bigger than Blue Whales use literal metric tons of the stuff as their bedding.
D&D World is so unlike the real world that making it function like Medieval Europe would only REDUCE the credibility (which is already low given the rampant paganism and objectively proveable afterlife rewards for being evil as well as good... yet somehow moral beliefs that are literally exclusive in history to Christianity/Western Civilization undergird it all).
May as well use bottlecaps.
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 07, 2024, 08:15:19 AMWhat part of murderhobos are you not getting?
Murderhobos are the kind of players who sack Hommlet and put everyone to the sword after sacking The Moathouse. Or sack The Keep after sacking The Caves of Chaos. Most adventurers aren't actually Murderhobos.
Greetings!
"Continent Sized Caverns"--Chris.
*Laughing* So true, huh Chris?
Oh, and Dragons bigger than Blue Whales. *Laughing*
And "Rampant Paganism". Well, Chris, it isn't like the Players are playing Monks & Monasteries, so of course there is rampant Paganism.
And yeah, it would be nice if the anti-Christian hate wasn't so pervasive--while being absolutely oblivious to all of the Christian ideas, philosophy, morals, and concepts that are woven throughout the foundation of the game.
I think though traditionally, the anti-Christian hate is linked to many of the players themselves, as well as current crop designers and writers,
Gary Gygax, and many others of the developers, writers, artists, and staff of D&D back in the old days were Christians. Gary, of course, years later, being strident in his Christian faith, and was quick to defend Christianity, and the Christian concepts and principles woven into the D&D game. Some conversations with him and Woke people was hilarious as they would shriek about Clerics and Paladins, and Gary would just shred them, while championing Christian concepts and history. ;D
Good stuff!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 10:28:20 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 07, 2024, 08:15:19 AM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 04:26:13 AM
I think that players should have SOME sort of wealth outside of adventuring to represent the day-to-day expenses they have to pay (otherwise, they're basically shiftless vagabonds). Dungeons & Dragons was predicated on the idea that players weren't your average slob, they were of gentle birth (not necessarily the kind to inherit, though). That was the point of Secondary Skills in 1E/2E AD&D and supposed to be the point of Backgrounds in 5E D&D (not so much in actual play, though).
What part of murderhobos are you not getting?
Murderhobos are the kind of players who sack Hommlet and put everyone to the sword after sacking The Moathouse. Or sack The Keep after sacking The Caves of Chaos. Most adventurers aren't actually Murderhobos.
The assumption in D&D is that player characters always pay for goods and services in coin. Thus, they are vagabonds, though usually ones with a lot of coin in their pockets. There is no presumption that they can rely on their family, or even who their family are. Unlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.
That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PMUnlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.
That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.
While I know 'Death of the Author' is a thing, Gygax said the presumption is that your PCs are of gentle birth. That was why you had the Secondary Skills in the DMG. Sure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 05:27:06 PMSure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....
Many such people went on to be Presidents and celebrities.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 05:27:06 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PMUnlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.
That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.
While I know 'Death of the Author' is a thing, Gygax said the presumption is that your PCs are of gentle birth. That was why you had the Secondary Skills in the DMG. Sure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....
OK, I just double-checked my DMG, and I think you're misreading that. Notably, the Secondary Skills table (p12) has entries for "farmer/gardener", "fisher", "miner", and "trapper/furrier". Those aren't skills of gentle birth. There is a statement like what you say on page 88, but it's phrased as an example society, and it generally says to leave it up to the DM and the specific campaign world.
QuoteSocial Class and Rank in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
There is no random table for determination of a character's social status to be found here. That is because the inclusion of such a factor will either tell you little or nothing of useful nature, or it will abridge your freedom with respect to development of your campaign milieu. That is, if such a table tells you only a little so as not to force a social structure upon your campaign, the table can contain nothing of use. If it states rank, it presupposes you will, in fact, have such classes in your campaign when you might not desire them at all. There are dozens of possible government forms, each of which will have varying social classes, ranks, or castes. Which sort you choose for your milieu is strictly your own prerogative. While this game is loosely based on Feudal European technology, history, and myth, it also contains elements from the Ancient Period, parts of more modern myth, and the mythos of many authors as well.
...
QuoteOnce a set of social structures and cultures has been devised for the campaign, you may or may not find it useful to assign rank, class, or caste to player characters.
...
QuoteLet us assume a social structure of an aristocracy which is non-hereditary. Members of this ruling class are those who have served in the military, own property of 100 or more acres extent, and pay an annual tax of not less than 10 gold pieces on their income.
...
QuoteIn such a society, adventurers would come from the young children of aristocrats--those who will inherit little and wish to remain in the favored class. Some would come from the middle group--adventurous persons who aim at becoming members of the aristocracy through successes in such adventures. Few, if any, would come from the lowest class, i.e. the bondsmen and common laborers. Assigning a social class to player characters in such a society would not have any particular value unless you also devised various rivalries within the classes.
With this brief example in mind, it is easy to see how pointless it is to blindly plug in a set of "birth tables" based on some form of hereditary quasi-European nobility which may have absolutely no meaning within any of the states of your campaign milieu.
In practice, for most D&D campaigns that I've seen, this has meant that player characters never get assigned a social class. Their status is based on how much coin they have. This stands in contrast to something like Chivalry & Sorcery - or in Pundit's "Lion & Dragon" - where social class is assigned to PCs according to the rules, and is very important.
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 10:28:20 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 07, 2024, 08:15:19 AM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 04:26:13 AM
I think that players should have SOME sort of wealth outside of adventuring to represent the day-to-day expenses they have to pay (otherwise, they're basically shiftless vagabonds). Dungeons & Dragons was predicated on the idea that players weren't your average slob, they were of gentle birth (not necessarily the kind to inherit, though). That was the point of Secondary Skills in 1E/2E AD&D and supposed to be the point of Backgrounds in 5E D&D (not so much in actual play, though).
What part of murderhobos are you not getting?
Murderhobos are the kind of players who sack Hommlet and put everyone to the sword after sacking The Moathouse. Or sack The Keep after sacking The Caves of Chaos. Most adventurers aren't actually Murderhobos.
The assumption in D&D is that player characters always pay for goods and services in coin. Thus, they are vagabonds, though usually ones with a lot of coin in their pockets. There is no presumption that they can rely on their family, or even who their family are. Unlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.
That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.
Lion & Dragon would like a word.
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 08:31:10 PM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 05:27:06 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PMUnlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.
That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.
While I know 'Death of the Author' is a thing, Gygax said the presumption is that your PCs are of gentle birth. That was why you had the Secondary Skills in the DMG. Sure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....
OK, I just double-checked my DMG, and I think you're misreading that. Notably, the Secondary Skills table (p12) has entries for "farmer/gardener", "fisher", "miner", and "trapper/furrier". Those aren't skills of gentle birth. There is a statement like what you say on page 88, but it's phrased as an example society, and it generally says to leave it up to the DM and the specific campaign world.
QuoteSocial Class and Rank in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
There is no random table for determination of a character's social status to be found here. That is because the inclusion of such a factor will either tell you little or nothing of useful nature, or it will abridge your freedom with respect to development of your campaign milieu. That is, if such a table tells you only a little so as not to force a social structure upon your campaign, the table can contain nothing of use. If it states rank, it presupposes you will, in fact, have such classes in your campaign when you might not desire them at all. There are dozens of possible government forms, each of which will have varying social classes, ranks, or castes. Which sort you choose for your milieu is strictly your own prerogative. While this game is loosely based on Feudal European technology, history, and myth, it also contains elements from the Ancient Period, parts of more modern myth, and the mythos of many authors as well.
...
QuoteOnce a set of social structures and cultures has been devised for the campaign, you may or may not find it useful to assign rank, class, or caste to player characters.
...
QuoteLet us assume a social structure of an aristocracy which is non-hereditary. Members of this ruling class are those who have served in the military, own property of 100 or more acres extent, and pay an annual tax of not less than 10 gold pieces on their income.
...
QuoteIn such a society, adventurers would come from the young children of aristocrats--those who will inherit little and wish to remain in the favored class. Some would come from the middle group--adventurous persons who aim at becoming members of the aristocracy through successes in such adventures. Few, if any, would come from the lowest class, i.e. the bondsmen and common laborers. Assigning a social class to player characters in such a society would not have any particular value unless you also devised various rivalries within the classes.
With this brief example in mind, it is easy to see how pointless it is to blindly plug in a set of "birth tables" based on some form of hereditary quasi-European nobility which may have absolutely no meaning within any of the states of your campaign milieu.
In practice, for most D&D campaigns that I've seen, this has meant that player characters never get assigned a social class. Their status is based on how much coin they have. This stands in contrast to something like Chivalry & Sorcery - or in Pundit's "Lion & Dragon" - where social class is assigned to PCs according to the rules, and is very important.
Ah, there we go.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 08, 2024, 04:55:27 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 08:31:10 PM
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 05:27:06 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PMUnlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.
That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.
While I know 'Death of the Author' is a thing, Gygax said the presumption is that your PCs are of gentle birth. That was why you had the Secondary Skills in the DMG. Sure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....
OK, I just double-checked my DMG, and I think you're misreading that. Notably, the Secondary Skills table (p12) has entries for "farmer/gardener", "fisher", "miner", and "trapper/furrier". Those aren't skills of gentle birth. There is a statement like what you say on page 88, but it's phrased as an example society, and it generally says to leave it up to the DM and the specific campaign world.
QuoteSocial Class and Rank in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons
There is no random table for determination of a character's social status to be found here. That is because the inclusion of such a factor will either tell you little or nothing of useful nature, or it will abridge your freedom with respect to development of your campaign milieu. That is, if such a table tells you only a little so as not to force a social structure upon your campaign, the table can contain nothing of use. If it states rank, it presupposes you will, in fact, have such classes in your campaign when you might not desire them at all. There are dozens of possible government forms, each of which will have varying social classes, ranks, or castes. Which sort you choose for your milieu is strictly your own prerogative. While this game is loosely based on Feudal European technology, history, and myth, it also contains elements from the Ancient Period, parts of more modern myth, and the mythos of many authors as well.
...
QuoteOnce a set of social structures and cultures has been devised for the campaign, you may or may not find it useful to assign rank, class, or caste to player characters.
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QuoteLet us assume a social structure of an aristocracy which is non-hereditary. Members of this ruling class are those who have served in the military, own property of 100 or more acres extent, and pay an annual tax of not less than 10 gold pieces on their income.
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QuoteIn such a society, adventurers would come from the young children of aristocrats--those who will inherit little and wish to remain in the favored class. Some would come from the middle group--adventurous persons who aim at becoming members of the aristocracy through successes in such adventures. Few, if any, would come from the lowest class, i.e. the bondsmen and common laborers. Assigning a social class to player characters in such a society would not have any particular value unless you also devised various rivalries within the classes.
With this brief example in mind, it is easy to see how pointless it is to blindly plug in a set of "birth tables" based on some form of hereditary quasi-European nobility which may have absolutely no meaning within any of the states of your campaign milieu.
In practice, for most D&D campaigns that I've seen, this has meant that player characters never get assigned a social class. Their status is based on how much coin they have. This stands in contrast to something like Chivalry & Sorcery - or in Pundit's "Lion & Dragon" - where social class is assigned to PCs according to the rules, and is very important.
Ah, there we go.
Unearthed Arcana did what? Just plugged in a set of birth tables of course!
So one thread devolved into an ascending AC argument, this one into bitching about a ridiculous economy. Alignment is next, I guess.
Quote from: Brad on March 08, 2024, 08:38:28 AM
So one thread devolved into an ascending AC argument, this one into bitching about a ridiculous economy. Alignment is next, I guess.
I'm a firm believer in the importance of alignment. It really improves your gas mileage and reduces tire wear. ;D
I'll see myself out.
Quote from: Grognard GM on March 03, 2024, 10:51:28 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 03, 2024, 10:31:45 AMThey left that to the Bee Gees".
There's a backhanded compliment.
The difference is that once the astroturfed rebellion against Disco died down, which had caused a lot of people to hate on the Bee Gee's because that was immensely popular, Bee Gee's songs hold up really well and are still enjoyed. I don't see 5e getting a lot of play in decades to come, except from nostalgia.
5e feels like 3e with training wheels. I don't really care for it. But... it is easier to play so I think it will have staying power. A lot of people have started on it and I think they are gonna stick to it.
I guess you just have to ask... How deep is your love... for 5e?
Replying to the video.
Grognard is pronounced 'groniard'.
I agree with your comments on system mastery. Playing to it, which 3E did and 5E does, to an extent, after all the expansion books, is bad for the game community.
There are many ways to measure sales success. If you measure how much 1E sold as a fraction of the economy at the time, it was wildly more successful. But if you compare the median family income (ie how much your average consumer is making), that is practically the same after inflation, so you can compare 5E's 3-5M figure directly against 1E's 1.6M. I'd still reduce the 5E numbers because it had the advantage of online advertising and sales which 1E never had. If 1E had those advantages, how would 5E compare? This is guesswork territory but I'd say 5E would still win out, but not by much, some 10-30%.
Quote from: RPGer678 on March 09, 2024, 09:51:38 AM
Replying to the video.
Grognard is pronounced 'groniard'.
And Say-ga should be pronounced Seg-ga, and a Gif should be pronounced Jif, but the boat has sailed for those too. Grognard is now pronounced as it's written.
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PM
The assumption in D&D is that player characters always pay for goods and services in coin. Thus, they are vagabonds, though usually ones with a lot of coin in their pockets. There is no presumption that they can rely on their family, or even who their family are. Unlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.
That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.
Apparently early D&D the assumption was the PCs were from middle class noble families. Hence why they had so much coin on hand at the start. Far more than any commoner would have.
Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 10:28:20 AM
Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 07, 2024, 08:15:19 AMWhat part of murderhobos are you not getting?
Murderhobos are the kind of players who sack Hommlet and put everyone to the sword after sacking The Moathouse. Or sack The Keep after sacking The Caves of Chaos. Most adventurers aren't actually Murderhobos.
I always thought Village of Homlett would be great in reverse for an evil party. I mean GG goes to great length to list out all of the coinage every villager has squirreled away. Put all those words in the text to use!
Quote from: Willmark on March 09, 2024, 11:38:37 PM
I always thought Village of Homlett would be great in reverse for an evil party. I mean GG goes to great length to list out all of the coinage every villager has squirreled away. Put all those words in the text to use!
I ran a TOEE game that started in Hommlet, the PCs decided to just take over the town. They dumped a ton of money and started building a new church and housing. Basically converted the entire populace to their cause. Not evil at all, but certainly at odds with the "good" guys.
Quote from: RPGPundit on March 08, 2024, 04:55:27 AM
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 08:31:10 PM
I just double-checked my DMG, and I think you're misreading that. Notably, the Secondary Skills table (p12) has entries for "farmer/gardener", "fisher", "miner", and "trapper/furrier". Those aren't skills of gentle birth. There is a statement like what you say on page 88, but it's phrased as an example society, and it generally says to leave it up to the DM and the specific campaign world.
Unearthed Arcana did what? Just plugged in a set of birth tables of course!
Oh, hey. I forgot that was in there. It seems to me that in practice, most people ignored the Comeliness and birth table rules from UA, and just used it for the new races, classes, and spells. None of the sample characters from modules had Comeliness or social class that I recall.
Quote from: Omega on March 09, 2024, 04:19:42 PM
Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PM
The assumption in D&D is that player characters always pay for goods and services in coin. Thus, they are vagabonds, though usually ones with a lot of coin in their pockets. There is no presumption that they can rely on their family, or even who their family are. Unlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.
That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.
Apparently early D&D the assumption was the PCs were from middle class noble families. Hence why they had so much coin on hand at the start. Far more than any commoner would have.
Do you have a text reference for this? I quoted the AD&D DMG section earlier. In real history, commoners like mercenaries, merchants, or thieves could still potentially have a lot of coin. In most of Europe, there were still big social differences between a noble with money and a commoner with money, even if they had the same amounts of coin. There is a trope in stories of impoverished noble families having to make deals with commoners to pay for upkeep of their land.