Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 07, 2024, 08:15:19 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 04:26:13 AM
Well, part of this is building a more credible D&D economy. Between the Medieval Price List that was compiled years ago and maybe some other sources like HârnMaster, Lion and Dragon, etc.

I think that players should have SOME sort of wealth outside of adventuring to represent the day-to-day expenses they have to pay (otherwise, they're basically shiftless vagabonds). Dungeons & Dragons was predicated on the idea that players weren't your average slob, they were of gentle birth (not necessarily the kind to inherit, though). That was the point of Secondary Skills in 1E/2E AD&D and supposed to be the point of Backgrounds in 5E D&D (not so much in actual play, though).

What part of murderhobos are you not getting?

Also, not historical Earth. Not even fantastic Earth.

Gold is probably the third most common metal on D&D World after iron and silver (copper isn't even regarded as metal; it's trash you don't even bother to pick up if it's lying on the street and only bother collecting from a dungeon if literally everything else not nailed down has been collected and there's room to spare in the physics-breaking storage device you carry in your pocket).

The continent-sized caverns that descend miles into the earth are full of it (and and silver and gems, especially glowing crystals) if you can fight your way through all the cannibalistic humanoids and monsters guarding it.

Gravity-defying Dragons bigger than Blue Whales use literal metric tons of the stuff as their bedding.

D&D World is so unlike the real world that making it function like Medieval Europe would only REDUCE the credibility (which is already low given the rampant paganism and objectively proveable afterlife rewards for being evil as well as good... yet somehow moral beliefs that are literally exclusive in history to Christianity/Western Civilization undergird it all).

May as well use bottlecaps.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 07, 2024, 08:15:19 AMWhat part of murderhobos are you not getting?

Murderhobos are the kind of players who sack Hommlet and put everyone to the sword after sacking The Moathouse. Or sack The Keep after sacking The Caves of Chaos. Most adventurers aren't actually Murderhobos.

Greetings!

"Continent Sized Caverns"--Chris.

*Laughing* So true, huh Chris?

Oh, and Dragons bigger than Blue Whales. *Laughing*

And "Rampant Paganism". Well, Chris, it isn't like the Players are playing Monks & Monasteries, so of course there is rampant Paganism.

And yeah, it would be nice if the anti-Christian hate wasn't so pervasive--while being absolutely oblivious to all of the Christian ideas, philosophy, morals, and concepts that are woven throughout the foundation of the game.

I think though traditionally, the anti-Christian hate is linked to many of the players themselves, as well as current crop designers and writers,

Gary Gygax, and many others of the developers, writers, artists, and staff of D&D back in the old days were Christians. Gary, of course, years later, being strident in his Christian faith, and was quick to defend Christianity, and the Christian concepts and principles woven into the D&D game. Some conversations with him and Woke people was hilarious as they would shriek about Clerics and Paladins, and Gary would just shred them, while championing Christian concepts and history.

Good stuff!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 10:28:20 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 07, 2024, 08:15:19 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 04:26:13 AM
I think that players should have SOME sort of wealth outside of adventuring to represent the day-to-day expenses they have to pay (otherwise, they're basically shiftless vagabonds). Dungeons & Dragons was predicated on the idea that players weren't your average slob, they were of gentle birth (not necessarily the kind to inherit, though). That was the point of Secondary Skills in 1E/2E AD&D and supposed to be the point of Backgrounds in 5E D&D (not so much in actual play, though).

What part of murderhobos are you not getting?

Murderhobos are the kind of players who sack Hommlet and put everyone to the sword after sacking The Moathouse. Or sack The Keep after sacking The Caves of Chaos. Most adventurers aren't actually Murderhobos.

The assumption in D&D is that player characters always pay for goods and services in coin. Thus, they are vagabonds, though usually ones with a lot of coin in their pockets. There is no presumption that they can rely on their family, or even who their family are. Unlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.

That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.

Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PMUnlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.

That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.

While I know 'Death of the Author' is a thing, Gygax said the presumption is that your PCs are of gentle birth. That was why you had the Secondary Skills in the DMG. Sure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 05:27:06 PMSure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....

Many such people went on to be Presidents and celebrities.

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 05:27:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PMUnlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.

That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.

While I know 'Death of the Author' is a thing, Gygax said the presumption is that your PCs are of gentle birth. That was why you had the Secondary Skills in the DMG. Sure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....

OK, I just double-checked my DMG, and I think you're misreading that. Notably, the Secondary Skills table (p12) has entries for "farmer/gardener", "fisher", "miner", and "trapper/furrier". Those aren't skills of gentle birth. There is a statement like what you say on page 88, but it's phrased as an example society, and it generally says to leave it up to the DM and the specific campaign world.

QuoteSocial Class and Rank in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons

There is no random table for determination of a character's social status to be found here. That is because the inclusion of such a factor will either tell you little or nothing of useful nature, or it will abridge your freedom with respect to development of your campaign milieu. That is, if such a table tells you only a little so as not to force a social structure upon your campaign, the table can contain nothing of use. If it states rank, it presupposes you will, in fact, have such classes in your campaign when you might not desire them at all. There are dozens of possible government forms, each of which will have varying social classes, ranks, or castes. Which sort you choose for your milieu is strictly your own prerogative. While this game is loosely based on Feudal European technology, history, and myth, it also contains elements from the Ancient Period, parts of more modern myth, and the mythos of many authors as well.

...

QuoteOnce a set of social structures and cultures has been devised for the campaign, you may or may not find it useful to assign rank, class, or caste to player characters.

...

QuoteLet us assume a social structure of an aristocracy which is non-hereditary. Members of this ruling class are those who have served in the military, own property of 100 or more acres extent, and pay an annual tax of not less than 10 gold pieces on their income.

...

QuoteIn such a society, adventurers would come from the young children of aristocrats--those who will inherit little and wish to remain in the favored class. Some would come from the middle group--adventurous persons who aim at becoming members of the aristocracy through successes in such adventures. Few, if any, would come from the lowest class, i.e. the bondsmen and common laborers. Assigning a social class to player characters in such a society would not have any particular value unless you also devised various rivalries within the classes.

With this brief example in mind, it is easy to see how pointless it is to blindly plug in a set of "birth tables" based on some form of hereditary quasi-European nobility which may have absolutely no meaning within any of the states of your campaign milieu.

In practice, for most D&D campaigns that I've seen, this has meant that player characters never get assigned a social class. Their status is based on how much coin they have. This stands in contrast to something like Chivalry & Sorcery - or in Pundit's "Lion & Dragon" - where social class is assigned to PCs according to the rules, and is very important.

Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 10:28:20 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 07, 2024, 08:15:19 AM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 04:26:13 AM
I think that players should have SOME sort of wealth outside of adventuring to represent the day-to-day expenses they have to pay (otherwise, they're basically shiftless vagabonds). Dungeons & Dragons was predicated on the idea that players weren't your average slob, they were of gentle birth (not necessarily the kind to inherit, though). That was the point of Secondary Skills in 1E/2E AD&D and supposed to be the point of Backgrounds in 5E D&D (not so much in actual play, though).

What part of murderhobos are you not getting?

Murderhobos are the kind of players who sack Hommlet and put everyone to the sword after sacking The Moathouse. Or sack The Keep after sacking The Caves of Chaos. Most adventurers aren't actually Murderhobos.

The assumption in D&D is that player characters always pay for goods and services in coin. Thus, they are vagabonds, though usually ones with a lot of coin in their pockets. There is no presumption that they can rely on their family, or even who their family are. Unlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.

That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.

Lion & Dragon would like a word.

Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 08:31:10 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 05:27:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PMUnlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.

That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.

While I know 'Death of the Author' is a thing, Gygax said the presumption is that your PCs are of gentle birth. That was why you had the Secondary Skills in the DMG. Sure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....

OK, I just double-checked my DMG, and I think you're misreading that. Notably, the Secondary Skills table (p12) has entries for "farmer/gardener", "fisher", "miner", and "trapper/furrier". Those aren't skills of gentle birth. There is a statement like what you say on page 88, but it's phrased as an example society, and it generally says to leave it up to the DM and the specific campaign world.

QuoteSocial Class and Rank in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons

There is no random table for determination of a character's social status to be found here. That is because the inclusion of such a factor will either tell you little or nothing of useful nature, or it will abridge your freedom with respect to development of your campaign milieu. That is, if such a table tells you only a little so as not to force a social structure upon your campaign, the table can contain nothing of use. If it states rank, it presupposes you will, in fact, have such classes in your campaign when you might not desire them at all. There are dozens of possible government forms, each of which will have varying social classes, ranks, or castes. Which sort you choose for your milieu is strictly your own prerogative. While this game is loosely based on Feudal European technology, history, and myth, it also contains elements from the Ancient Period, parts of more modern myth, and the mythos of many authors as well.

...

QuoteOnce a set of social structures and cultures has been devised for the campaign, you may or may not find it useful to assign rank, class, or caste to player characters.

...

QuoteLet us assume a social structure of an aristocracy which is non-hereditary. Members of this ruling class are those who have served in the military, own property of 100 or more acres extent, and pay an annual tax of not less than 10 gold pieces on their income.

...

QuoteIn such a society, adventurers would come from the young children of aristocrats--those who will inherit little and wish to remain in the favored class. Some would come from the middle group--adventurous persons who aim at becoming members of the aristocracy through successes in such adventures. Few, if any, would come from the lowest class, i.e. the bondsmen and common laborers. Assigning a social class to player characters in such a society would not have any particular value unless you also devised various rivalries within the classes.

With this brief example in mind, it is easy to see how pointless it is to blindly plug in a set of "birth tables" based on some form of hereditary quasi-European nobility which may have absolutely no meaning within any of the states of your campaign milieu.

In practice, for most D&D campaigns that I've seen, this has meant that player characters never get assigned a social class. Their status is based on how much coin they have. This stands in contrast to something like Chivalry & Sorcery - or in Pundit's "Lion & Dragon" - where social class is assigned to PCs according to the rules, and is very important.

Ah, there we go.

Quote from: RPGPundit on March 08, 2024, 04:55:27 AM

Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 08:31:10 PM

Quote from: Insane Nerd Ramblings on March 07, 2024, 05:27:06 PM

Quote from: jhkim on March 07, 2024, 01:18:30 PMUnlike games like Chivalry & Sorcery or HarnMaster, a PC's birth and family aren't generated.

That's a huge difference for me between the D&D genre and medieval games like HarnMaster or Ars Magica. In medieval games, social class is omnipresent. Even if the PCs ignore social class among each other, it's clearly present in how PCs are received and between NPCs.

While I know 'Death of the Author' is a thing, Gygax said the presumption is that your PCs are of gentle birth. That was why you had the Secondary Skills in the DMG. Sure, you could end up rolling 'No discernible talent'....

OK, I just double-checked my DMG, and I think you're misreading that. Notably, the Secondary Skills table (p12) has entries for "farmer/gardener", "fisher", "miner", and "trapper/furrier". Those aren't skills of gentle birth. There is a statement like what you say on page 88, but it's phrased as an example society, and it generally says to leave it up to the DM and the specific campaign world.

QuoteSocial Class and Rank in Advanced Dungeons & Dragons

There is no random table for determination of a character's social status to be found here. That is because the inclusion of such a factor will either tell you little or nothing of useful nature, or it will abridge your freedom with respect to development of your campaign milieu. That is, if such a table tells you only a little so as not to force a social structure upon your campaign, the table can contain nothing of use. If it states rank, it presupposes you will, in fact, have such classes in your campaign when you might not desire them at all. There are dozens of possible government forms, each of which will have varying social classes, ranks, or castes. Which sort you choose for your milieu is strictly your own prerogative. While this game is loosely based on Feudal European technology, history, and myth, it also contains elements from the Ancient Period, parts of more modern myth, and the mythos of many authors as well.

...

QuoteOnce a set of social structures and cultures has been devised for the campaign, you may or may not find it useful to assign rank, class, or caste to player characters.

...

QuoteLet us assume a social structure of an aristocracy which is non-hereditary. Members of this ruling class are those who have served in the military, own property of 100 or more acres extent, and pay an annual tax of not less than 10 gold pieces on their income.

...

QuoteIn such a society, adventurers would come from the young children of aristocrats--those who will inherit little and wish to remain in the favored class. Some would come from the middle group--adventurous persons who aim at becoming members of the aristocracy through successes in such adventures. Few, if any, would come from the lowest class, i.e. the bondsmen and common laborers. Assigning a social class to player characters in such a society would not have any particular value unless you also devised various rivalries within the classes.

With this brief example in mind, it is easy to see how pointless it is to blindly plug in a set of "birth tables" based on some form of hereditary quasi-European nobility which may have absolutely no meaning within any of the states of your campaign milieu.

In practice, for most D&D campaigns that I've seen, this has meant that player characters never get assigned a social class. Their status is based on how much coin they have. This stands in contrast to something like Chivalry & Sorcery - or in Pundit's "Lion & Dragon" - where social class is assigned to PCs according to the rules, and is very important.

Ah, there we go.

Unearthed Arcana did what? Just plugged in a set of birth tables of course!

So one thread devolved into an ascending AC argument, this one into bitching about a ridiculous economy. Alignment is next, I guess.

Quote from: Brad on March 08, 2024, 08:38:28 AM
So one thread devolved into an ascending AC argument, this one into bitching about a ridiculous economy. Alignment is next, I guess.

I'm a firm believer in the importance of alignment. It really improves your gas mileage and reduces tire wear. 

I'll see myself out.

Quote from: Grognard GM on March 03, 2024, 10:51:28 AM

Quote from: Exploderwizard on March 03, 2024, 10:31:45 AMThey left that to the Bee Gees".

There's a backhanded compliment.

The difference is that once the astroturfed rebellion against Disco died down, which had caused a lot of people to hate on the Bee Gee's because that was immensely popular, Bee Gee's songs hold up really well and are still enjoyed. I don't see 5e getting a lot of play in decades to come, except from nostalgia.

5e feels like 3e with training wheels.  I don't really care for it. But... it is easier to play so I think it will have staying power.  A lot of people have started on it and I think they are gonna stick to it. 

I guess you just have to ask... How deep is your love... for 5e?

Replying to the video.

Grognard is pronounced 'groniard'.

I agree with your comments on system mastery. Playing to it, which 3E did and 5E does, to an extent, after all the expansion books, is bad for the game community.

There are many ways to measure sales success. If you measure how much 1E sold as a fraction of the economy at the time, it was wildly more successful. But if you compare the median family income (ie how much your average consumer is making), that is practically the same after inflation, so you can compare 5E's 3-5M figure directly against 1E's 1.6M. I'd still reduce the 5E numbers because it had the advantage of online advertising and sales which 1E never had. If 1E had those advantages, how would 5E compare? This is guesswork territory but I'd say 5E would still win out, but not by much, some 10-30%.

Quote from: RPGer678 on March 09, 2024, 09:51:38 AM
Replying to the video.

Grognard is pronounced 'groniard'.

And Say-ga should be pronounced Seg-ga, and a Gif should be pronounced Jif, but the boat has sailed for those too. Grognard is now pronounced as it's written.